Maintenance Engineers

This forum has been developed to discuss maintenance topics in Canada.

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Schimunga
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#151 Post by Schimunga » Mon May 03, 2010 7:31 pm

212wrench--I see that you like using quotes so I got one for you. "Those who can't do, teach."
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#152 Post by chowda » Mon May 03, 2010 10:38 pm

I was thinking the same thing. quite a few instructors from my school, especially the head instructor then were crap ames and crap instructors . I really found that out after I'd been out in the field awhile and heard some first hand stories. I saw one of them recently after many years away from school and i couldnt believe how little i respected him. really did not get past thinking what a goof he was/is after flashingback to all the bs and the god attitude he had at the school. didnt bother even talking to him.
Maybe when you tell everyone who is disappointed with being an ame to quit, you should be careful of students taking the same advice and leaving no work for instructors. but wait, i think thats already happening isnt it?
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#153 Post by 212wrench » Tue May 04, 2010 11:34 am

"Maybe when you tell everyone who is disappointed with being an ame to quit, you should be careful of students taking the same advice and leaving no work for instructors. but wait, i think thats already happening isnt it?"

So the lack of AME's is caused by poor instruction. Talk about looking for the easy way out. School gives you a license to learn, nothing more. Blame everyone else for your problems. I stand by my first statement, Its all about attitude. I don't need to defend instructors, your gonna blame your shortcomings on them anyways. In fact you'll find anything to blame your problems on and until you look in the mirror, your not gonna find your answer.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#154 Post by HS-748 2A » Tue May 04, 2010 3:16 pm

In fact you'll find anything to blame your problems on and until you look in the mirror, your not gonna find your answer.
As this people, is the rotten root of this whole thread.

Well put 212.

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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#155 Post by partsboy » Tue May 04, 2010 5:18 pm

After reading this thread I realize that we may be our own worst enemy. On the one hand people who have the passion are being criticized for doing what they love for not as much money than they could get. Others seem to think that they are being shortchanged in comparison with pilots; their "union" is stronger than ours. You don't see them criticizing each other on salary.

And theres my point. We criticize each other when we should support each other and bring our point forward about what we do. The pilots bring the planes up there but WE keep them there. Without us, there would be more business for the trains and buses. It is ironic though that an appliance repair guy gets more salary than an AME that fixes the aircraft he takes to go vacation. When will we realize that the responsability we have when we sign out an aircraft is just as important as when the aircrew sign it out. Once we start working towards this, then and only then will we start making headway towards getting better compensation for our efforts.

The aircrew are complaining now about low wages. Just wait until the higher paid ones start getting the treatment a lot of us experience right now. Maybe then will we be able to get together and have the attitude of operators change.

My 2 cents worth. :partyman:
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#156 Post by chowda » Tue May 04, 2010 7:12 pm

So the lack of AME's is caused by poor instruction. Talk about looking for the easy way out. School gives you a license to learn, nothing more. Blame everyone else for your problems. I stand by my first statement, Its all about attitude. I don't need to defend instructors, your gonna blame your shortcomings on them anyways. In fact you'll find anything to blame your problems on and until you look in the mirror, your not gonna find your answer.

LAck of ame's is because of poor money and conditions and i dont see where i said instructors are the cause. are you for sure talking about my post? doesnt look like it you seem to be just ranting. i dont see where i was blaming instructors or everyone else for the problems you say i have. i blame instructors for poor quality apprentices coming out of schools and there are many of those and i blame them for lying to people to try and get them to enrol in the course.i mentioned how i ran into a lousy instructor from a school i went to longtime ago and that if everyone follows your awesome just quit advice instructors will have no one to instruct. if you dont understand my post please quote where you are having trouble with my writing and i will try to help you.
the rest of your reply is baseless as my post did not go anywhere where you are coming from and it looks like you just have a rehearsed answer ready to go. i think you might be used to trying to defend your the industry is awesome theres just bad attitude ames who say bad things about it position. i think thats why your response is the way it is
i hope you understand your students better than you did my post.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#157 Post by bleedair » Tue May 04, 2010 11:39 pm

I apologize for my first post which was, in hindsight, pretty disgusting. After much time of walking on wet pavement job hunting and hours of searching online, when nothing turned up I was frustrated, drunk, and depressed. Right now the economy isnt great, but most people say attitude and being creative is important and it will get better. And I didnt mean to say AMEs aren't multi skilled, it was a jab to some people I went to school becoming AME's with who didn't know their right hand from their left, and it's not fair to people who are really talented at what they do to be thrown in the same pot. Oh well. I don't think an instructor should get you the job, but they bloody well better talk about the industry when questions are asked. Rather than gloating about their endorsements, and saying the "well, that is something you will have to research, Im not sure, by the by these pants are from airtransat" talk about ways to get that logbook filled out, maybe doing menial work in some outback shack painting seat frames. Everytime you get dolled up for a resume dropoff or interview, a necessary evil called an HR person is going to shaft you in the bum, like that tranny from Viking Air so thats why BCIT has to be on the ball and connect you with the right people, Anywhere. That is why sometimes it seemed like BCIT was a waste of time and money, and the panic of trying to start a career in something with no guidepost . The panic, ever high now with not even a rampee job in Yellowknife. Sarry ya'll stay positive and don't ever accept a used handkercheif from a pilot :prayer: :smt008 :goodman:
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#158 Post by bombardierfixer » Thu May 06, 2010 10:57 am

[quote="partsboy"]After reading this thread I realize that we may be our own worst enemy.

You've hit the nail on the head with that one, somthing I say every shift. The AME association that I have found myself part of is a good example of that. It would seem that we have no direction and we are chasing causes that will never come to fruition. We are constantly at each others throats, protecting our little pieces of pie and steering our own agendas. We constiantly feel that our base is the hardest and most overworked, and the other guys do nothing, which when its every base, either nothing is being done or its all getting done.

Okay this may be naive, but I don't think management uses this against us but they probably do in the back of their minds think "Don't worry, maintenance can't get their shit together" But this makes us ripe for the picking of a union. We just need to sit down and get a dialogue going, figure out a couple of priorities and then run with it. We are all adults and we profess to be somewhat proffessional. I think it can be done, christ I hope it can be done.

There now I've stood up, fire away!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#159 Post by Meecka » Thu May 06, 2010 4:13 pm

partsboy wrote:After reading this thread I realize that we may be our own worst enemy.

Agreed. My oh my what a strange new world it would be if we could just organize ourselves to work TOGETHER, instead of only looking out for our own asses. Change in our industry isn't just going to happen. We as a colective group have to make it happen.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#160 Post by Fling Wing » Thu May 06, 2010 7:12 pm

Wow, to think that the aircraft people fly in everyday could be maintained by people with this type of attitude. I know that there are apprentice jobs out there somewhere, and there always will be, you just have to put some actual effort into it. If you don't like it, don't do it, you only live once, so make yourself happy.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#161 Post by Schimunga » Thu May 06, 2010 9:12 pm

To you who say that we need to get together instead of stabbing each other in the back, how do we organize? How do we get all engineers on the same page? Maybe we can take this forum and actually get some ideas on how to do that instead of bitching about attitude and pay.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#162 Post by lupin » Fri May 07, 2010 3:52 am

Meecka wrote:
partsboy wrote:After reading this thread I realize that we may be our own worst enemy.

Agreed. My oh my what a strange new world it would be if we could just organize ourselves to work TOGETHER, instead of only looking out for our own asses. Change in our industry isn't just going to happen. We as a colective group have to make it happen.
Aircraft Mechanics are generally introverted individuals who work very well by themselves. We excel at problem solving, are very resourceful (many employers not spending much to equip us properly).

That having been said, most of us do not want to get involved or pay money to an association responsible for overseeing our trade. We frown upon unions (for the most part) and dislike the administrative side associated with the operation of an body representing AMEs.

Five years ago, I started a bachelors degree in business management. I am now more then 2/3 through ( I also work full time so it's a long process) and have gone through the various courses on business strategy, how to write up a business plan etc... If you gentlemen are serious about an association representing our trade, I can help with the structuring of the plan but we need to start with some objectives before we compose a method on how to get there...
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#163 Post by bombardierfixer » Fri May 07, 2010 8:08 am

Lupin, this is the rub, we already have 5 (I think) associations with one trying to take them all over and thats not counting company assocaiations and CAMC. Our Associations can't even get their acts together. Maybe with the Gen X AME's there may be a paradigm shift to collective cooperation. But we need to go to stuff that our local associations put on. I went last year, skipped this year, but if maybe we actually try...
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#164 Post by Meecka » Fri May 07, 2010 4:16 pm

lupin wrote:
Aircraft Mechanics are generally introverted individuals who work very well by themselves. We excel at problem solving, are very resourceful (many employers not spending much to equip us properly).

That having been said, most of us do not want to get involved or pay money to an association responsible for overseeing our trade. We frown upon unions (for the most part) and dislike the administrative side associated with the operation of an body representing AMEs.
The introvert thing may be true for some, but not all. I currently work in a place where working as a team is not just a good idea, it's the only way to keep our heads above water so to speak. I would have no problem getting involved with, and yes, paying money to an association for our trade. I personally don't believe that is the main issue. (just my oppinion) I think the main issue restricting change is the fact that there are some AME's standing up for theirselves, saying "No" and the like, trying in their own way to force change, and then when they have left the room, someone else comes along and cuts their legs out from underneath them. Does what the other guy wouldn't do to please the boss, because in his mind he's doing good, being "productive" (God I hate that term!) and making visual progress. Until this kind of thing stops employers have no incentive to treat the rest of us better, they will always be able to find someone else to do what we wouldn't.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#165 Post by lupin » Sat May 08, 2010 7:20 am

bombardierfixer wrote:Lupin, this is the rub, we already have 5 (I think) associations with one trying to take them all over and thats not counting company assocaiations and CAMC. Our Associations can't even get their acts together. Maybe with the Gen X AME's there may be a paradigm shift to collective cooperation. But we need to go to stuff that our local associations put on. I went last year, skipped this year, but if maybe we actually try...
Have a look at who is involved with running the AME associations. Usually it's the management level employees of large companies. I doubt any change can come with them at the helm of the boat.

CAMC not a particularly interesting alternative, they try to be too many things to too many people.

Collective cooperation would be great but how do you get there? What kind of structure do you use? How will you convince people to adhere to the ideas both financially and with their participation? Who gets to choose the objectives? Where do we find the altruist individual who will donate his/her time for little remuneration, in order to organize this?
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#166 Post by roncoldlake » Sat May 08, 2010 3:33 pm

The attitude of the AME has to change. Prior to being laid off I felt like I was a part of a small select group of mechanics. I had confidence that attitudes would change over time. I answered a email from the company on how to save money. My reply was to spread coursing and qualification equally across the company. Give managers managerial courses and give technicians technical courses. Do not give managers courses they do not need or will never use. Give them to the wrench turners their the ones who need it. Inspire and assist in licensing for non licensed mechanics. Build a quality of life that attracts the best. What this got me was laid off. I was one of the first to be hired and there were others who were still on probation. The reasoning was maintenance restructuring so my position was eliminated. What it was, was a personal vendetta from a local manager who said either he goes or I go. This put the company in a tight situation as he was starting up a new project. So here it is I am summer employed and going back to school in the fall taking power engineering. 20 years of being on the technical side of aviation done. My attitude was never to make a million but to be able to have a good life and put my kids through whichever college they wanted to take. Sacrificed time with my family to help start up this company. Lots of travel and lots of non wanted overtime. Worked in the cold, hot, windy and without proper tools to do the job. Fought with other companies to get a fair deal for my company. Negotiated hangar space and Ground support equipment. Backed up fellow workers when mistakes were made. Admitted when they were made by me. Gave respect to those who were releasing the jets. Trained those and qualified them on specialty items. Took advice gave advice and learned from it all. After four and a half years the company who I helped build from nothing decided that I was not needed anymore. Yes the attitude of not only the AME but all of aviation in Canada has to change. Looking forward to my new life.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#167 Post by Pat Richard » Sat May 08, 2010 5:18 pm

roncoldlake wrote:The attitude of the AME has to change. Prior to being laid off I felt like I was a part of a small select group of mechanics. I had confidence that attitudes would change over time. I answered a email from the company on how to save money. My reply was to spread coursing and qualification equally across the company. Give managers managerial courses and give technicians technical courses. Do not give managers courses they do not need or will never use. Give them to the wrench turners their the ones who need it. Inspire and assist in licensing for non licensed mechanics. Build a quality of life that attracts the best. What this got me was laid off. I was one of the first to be hired and there were others who were still on probation. The reasoning was maintenance restructuring so my position was eliminated. What it was, was a personal vendetta from a local manager who said either he goes or I go. This put the company in a tight situation as he was starting up a new project. So here it is I am summer employed and going back to school in the fall taking power engineering. 20 years of being on the technical side of aviation done. My attitude was never to make a million but to be able to have a good life and put my kids through whichever college they wanted to take. Sacrificed time with my family to help start up this company. Lots of travel and lots of non wanted overtime. Worked in the cold, hot, windy and without proper tools to do the job. Fought with other companies to get a fair deal for my company. Negotiated hangar space and Ground support equipment. Backed up fellow workers when mistakes were made. Admitted when they were made by me. Gave respect to those who were releasing the jets. Trained those and qualified them on specialty items. Took advice gave advice and learned from it all. After four and a half years the company who I helped build from nothing decided that I was not needed anymore. Yes the attitude of not only the AME but all of aviation in Canada has to change. Looking forward to my new life.
I think the main issue restricting change is the fact that there are some AME's standing up for theirselves, saying "No" and the like, trying in their own way to force change, and then when they have left the room, someone else comes along and cuts their legs out from underneath them.
I've seen these scenarios played out more than once in aviation, and what results is the loss of experienced AME's. The second quote in particular is commonplace, and usually the one backstabbing is a useless twat who has no other means of getting ahead. These types are common in aviation maintenance, and management always loves a good bone smoker, so they tend to be kept around, while a good engineer leaves in frustration.
You moving on to power engineering is, in all honesty, the best choice. It seems everyone experienced(10 years+) I talk to these days is despondent about what the future holds for them, if they stay in aviation. So congrats on starting a new future.
My attitude was never to make a million but to be able to have a good life
That line really hits home, and its funny how for most in this business the chances of attaining this are right up there with winning the lottery. I know there's a few on here who are delusional, have lower quality of life expectations, or both, and will sound off on how great they think have it, but the greater majority know it isn't so.

What about starting a thread listing potential other fields+their requirements, to potentially help out of work/fed up AMEs move on to something more solid? Does any of our training count towards another qualification? Which industries desire a good AME's skill set? etc, etc.

Im to the point I'd like to see all the good AME's go, and leave the future of this business to the retards, who accept what is being offered, that I've been seeing more and more of in the last few years. Imported and domestic.
Im just going to stay the hell away from air travel as much as possible.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#168 Post by Troubleshot » Sun May 09, 2010 4:16 pm

The last 2 posts are the best I've read on the trade in quite some time. Sums up the direction of the trade/industry to a tee.

I am almost at the same spot in my career.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#169 Post by planemikey » Wed May 19, 2010 2:41 pm

Wow this thread is still going on ! I suprised Wilber and Orrville haven't put their 2 Censt woth in !

Bottom line for any Skilled person is :

Do you like what you are doing
Do you like where you are working
Do you feel you make a good living compared to other skilled professionals .

If not then change some or all of the perameters of your carrer or life ... period
Is avaition fair ? Nothing is fair ! Oil work , minig , nursing , farming ...............

Getting over it is the first step . It is a competative field now as there are more people than jobs in almost all trades. biching will take its toll on your health in terms of stress . Best to move on when you can to something else life is too short .
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#170 Post by coldandwet » Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:56 pm

Intelligence personified..........cant say it any better than that....its refreshing!!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#171 Post by Troubleshot » Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:16 am

coldandwet wrote:Intelligence personified..........cant say it any better than that....its refreshing!!

I can say it better...how bout naive and ignorant. I am sure mikey and coldandwet haven't been around the industry long...soooo you guys keep telling yourself that aircraft maintenance is as good as any trade out there and I am sure you guys won't have any problems during your careers (insert sarcasm). As for me bitching about it...well I feel I have a right to. I have been laid off more times than I'd like to mention and with that I am forced to new take positions I sometimes don't want to which usually ends up in a pay cut. Everytime your laid off it like taking 3 steps back in your career and if your new potential employer knows you've been laid off....well lets just say the offer is less than stellar and there is no room for negotiation. Period.

Then you say "just move on"...another young naive statement. Believe me if "moving on" was that easy I would have been gone ages ago but lets just explore that option for a minute. I have two fairly new vehicles, a house, credit card bills, line of credit, insurance for all that, life insurance, utilties, and countless other hands in my bank account every month. So, lets go back to school then...well I am gonna need one freaking big student loan to cover all that shit for two years even if I work in the evenings ( and then my family life suffers)......so lets just say I am gonna need 30K a year for 2 years, so 60K in loans on top of my already exsisting loans/debt and I am a brand new apprentice again fresh outta school with a house, kids that wanna play sports, even bigger bills than I had before, no experience in my new profession.....well that just sounds peachy doesn't it. I am not saying that this option isn't possible but I think I speak for a lot of guys in my position, it is just not realistic...I feel as a father and the main provider in my family that it is better for me to suffer than put my whole family through something like a career change...even if I am not happy.


So the next time you young piss ants come here telling me how "life is to short"....I will respond by saying carma is a bitch and you'll understand what I mean when your beloved career throws you a huge curve ball. Life is to short....you ain't kidding, I wish "life" was as cut and dry as you portray but I know that to be far from reality.

Good luck...you'll need it!
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#172 Post by Pat Richard » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:27 pm

So the next time you young piss ants come here telling me how "life is to short"....I will respond by saying carma is a bitch and you'll understand what I mean when your beloved career throws you a huge curve ball. Life is to short....you ain't kidding, I wish "life" was as cut and dry as you portray but I know that to be far from reality.
They will see that scenario play out if they last long enough, as more than a few have come back on here after a few years and repeated just that.

Troubling part is still the wages, they haven't changed all that much since I was an apprentice, but some things have quadrupled in cost since. And no, a single wide mobile home is not a "house", it is a trailer. I've seen that attempted to be passed a few times on here.

As for the the 2 posters not having been in this biz for too long, im almost 100% positive one has been in it for a very long time. That person should have a better idea of what goes on, but from personal experience, they've shown themselves to be pretty ignorant.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#173 Post by ourkid2000 » Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:08 pm

This thread is emotional.........

Confronting the truth is hurtin'
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#174 Post by coldandwet » Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:34 am

WEll.....I rarely engage in this kind of crap but I have no choice but to respond......First off I am not new to this Industry with over 24 years experience and I am sure that my reputation will ensure I will never go without work. I have been employed by some of the best and worst and have travelled at home and abroad. I have multiple endorsements in both rotary and Fixed wing. including E type ratings. I too have 2 cars a house, multiple payments, and with being a father of 2 small children and the only income earner of the family I feel i am qualified to understand your position. Now before you go judging me and my character take a deep breath....I dont really enjoy my profession and dont think my BELOVED career is the tops. That is not what plane mikey was referring too...He mearly stated that if you are that unhappy changes may have to be made. i have read a lot of posts on here and it is pretty repetitive in its nature. Pat I have read alot of your posts and you seem like an intelligent and an aware person, I am not naive at all but I refuse to let my position sour my outlook on life. I have 2 beautiful children who doesnt need to see their Dad go through day to day pissed off because a plumber makes more than I do....If thats ignorant and Naive well I guess thats what I am! But please in the future without knowing me personally I would refrain from attacking someones intelligence or character...thanks.
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Re: Maintenance Engineers

#175 Post by Troubleshot » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:24 am

Well first I apologize for judging your experience and character. Second, I too do not bring my "issues" regarding work home, as far as my kids know I love my job. My outlook on life is great and while I maybe disappointed on the career path I chose I enjoy pretty much all aspects of my life. My post was simply to point out that career changes are not as easy as some people protray they are, and this profession is not what it seems to be from the outside looking in.


Maybe if you explained yourself like you did in that last post instead of "Intelligence personified..........cant say it any better than that....its refreshing!! I wouldn't have gone off on a rant and crapped on you, cause a statement like that looks like it is coming from a newly licenced guy that doesn't know any better. I respectfully disagree whole heartedly with Planemikey and your take on industry and comparing it to other trades. The trades Mikey mentioned are miles ahead of aviation in regards to money, safety in the work place, opportunities, room for advancement, etc...

I could understand Mikey's stance on the subject if we were all making 80-100K a year working dayshifts with bonuses coming in....yeah, we would be whining...but we all know we (as a trade) are no where near that... more like 50-70k a year, working shift work (a lot of it nights), minimal training, making honey outta dog shit, sign it or your in trouble nonsense, etc...and hey I signed up for the job and thats my problem but what I won't stand is for someone to tell me I shouldn't voice my displeasure of what I see out there on an aviation forum and should just "move on"....I am gonna tell as many people out there as I can to run far away from this job and anything to do with aviation because I have evidence to prove this is a bad choice.


My 2 cents..... and that's all I am gonna say about it.
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