The million dollar questions...

[Johnny767]

My advice, to anyone entering this industry; "never take a job, other than flying." All this has historically done, is supply cheap labor, to unscrupulous operators.

If you want a; ramp rat, fuel jockey, brisket shooter, office Joe boy or cabana boy...go hire one.

I you want an; enthusiastic, willing to learn, eager Pilot..I'm your guy.

It is complete BS that you should invest upwards of 80K in a career, to be someone’s gopher.

It has nothing to do with ego! This crap has been perpetuated by Pilots, who have "done their time," and believe since they had to do it...all Pilots MUST "do their time."

Find me another career, that requires you to do some (completely unrelated) menial @ss job, to prove you have work ethic?

I will prove my work ethic, working hard for you...AS A PILOT!

[Navajo-dude]

Ego? Ego for what??

Pilots = Heavy Equipment Operators.

Period.

[Randleman]

I think Ditar hit the nail on the head with his post.

I am currently working the ground at a very reputable 704 company, who is known to be very good at advancing their pilots-they advance them with the first opening, not putting them on the ground for a while. I quit another company, more widely and negatively known, where I was also working on the ground there. I was the 2nd person on the ground there, along with another guy, and in the few months I was there, they hired 5 or 6 pilots-2 or 3 of them first officers, when they could have advanced on of us, but since we were low timers they felt it was our "duty" to work the ground. I don't disagree with working the ground if supply is high and demand is low, but it shouldn't be a "you must do this to fly..or too bad!" just my opinion anyway.

[Big Pistons Forever]

What "should be" and "what is" are often quite different. In a perfect world you should be able to go from flight training directly to a flying job, however the reality is there have always been more new pilots than entry level jobs. The result is that jobs that you do not really need to be a pilot (rampie/dock person.dispatcher) are often filled with pilots who (usually correctly) assume that they are more likely to to considered for one of those coveted entry level flying positions if they are allready working for the company. Thus the advantage of being in the industry in any capacity, IMO outweighs the disadvantage of not getting to fly right away, although there are, like every other industry, scumbags who abuse their junior employees with poor working conditions and empty promises.

This is the reality of the business today and I see nothing to change it. If you take the attitude that it is a flying job or nothing than in IMO it will likey be nothing...

Bottom line: It was your decision to spend all that money on flight training and nobody owes you a job just because you have a CPL and MEIFR or float rating or instructor rating and 250 hrs.

[fingersmac]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Excellent post.

[modi13]

It's not really fair to compare pilots to something like doctors, if only because doctors are always in demand. Rather, let's compare them to another job where wannabes are many and jobs are few: entertainment. Millions of people around the world spend thousands of dollars a year on acting lessons, agents, headshots, etc. in order to compete for a tiny number of positions. They work menial jobs just to pay the bills, and most never make it big, if they can get a gig at all. Would you have a problem with an actor working a non-acting job in the film industry to make a living while trying to find employment in their chosen profession, or should directors only hire gaffers who intend to be gaffers for their entire lives?If a person is qualified to do a job and applies for it, they shouldn't be turned down because they trained for another career. The problem would arise when the director promises an actor an acting job in his next film, so long as he works as a gaffer on a current project for a lower wage than people in a comparable position, lets himself be treated like crap without complaint, and says nothing when others are hired to fill positions he could have taken. Worse yet, the director only hires actors to fill the worst jobs and consistently pays them less than the non-actors working on other productions, and makes that mandatory for any actors they hire.

[High Flyin]

First of all, entitlement comes from all ages and all groups. So please, don't stereotype by saying just young people or low timers.

Second, anyone who spends a few years in school and $90,000 on an education, its only natural to have a sense of entitlement. Its something that will never end, so get over it.

[Meatservo]

I have always liked to compare flying professionally to a professional sport or like the man above said, entertainment. It's not appropriate to compare yourself to a doctor or a lawyer, there just isn't the same kind of intellectual commitment. On the other hand, "heavy equipment operator" isn't appropriate either, because traditionally being a pilot doesn't simply mean operating the equipment, it means navigating it over long distances and commanding a crew or at least being in charge of a bunch of people. A person's courage, ability to focus, alertness, intelligence and character play a larger part in operating an aircraft than a dump truck. I actually think the closest comparison might be to a bridge officer on a commercial ship. Just guessing but there may not be the hordes of excited wannabes busting down the sea shipping companies' doors.

Also, I believe better aircraft design, automation and GPS have made it possible for some people to get their qualifications now, who would have been simply too stupid and/or uncoordinated to succeed as pilots even 20 years ago.

So, we have basically a talentless pool of overeager lunatics doing whatever it takes to compete or a few coveted spots in an essentially meaningless and gratuitous industry, in order to someday qualify for a largely fictitious giant salary and bourgeois lifestyle, then when they get a position they turn into arrogant prima-donnas. Yep, sounds like entertainment. Where's that casting couch?

[GTODD]

It was not too long ago that I was the 200-300 hour guy working the dock hoping to get promoted. Since then I have had a few flying jobs. In all these places I have met a lot of low time pilots and I really don’t recall meeting one person who struck me as having a sense of entitlement. I have enjoyed working with all these people, and have nothing but good things to say about everyone. I have met a few people who have shown signs of frustration with having to work the ramp for years and have all their ratings expire, but I wouldn’t call that entitlement...just frustration.

[stef]

I don't see a problem. I don't see many big egos. I see alot of smart young people trying hard to advance themselves and their careers; Trying hard for an 'in' to a difficult industry to break in to; Looking for guidance in the best way to achieve their goals.

Like in any other faction of society there are exceptions.

[KAG]

I see nothing wrong with wanting and trying to attain a flying job out of school or with low(er) time. I mean it is what you have paid to do.
Just realize that the chances of a freshly minted CPL/MIFR, landing an actual flying gig is very remote but not impossible- there are the blessed few every year that seem to beat the odds.

A positive attitude and a willingness to learn with a hard work ethic will take you very far, and open many doors.
Walk in to a prospective company with the “I am pilot” attitude and your going to be looking for a job for a very long time.

You don’t need to work the ramp for 2-3 years, but expect some time doing menial work, paying your dues. Think of it as an ongoing interview where you get to prove yourself while learning the ropes at the same time.

...Just don't forget to have a little fun along the way

[loopa]

I see nothing wrong with wanting and trying to attain a flying job out of school or with low(er) time. I mean it is what you have paid to do.
Just realize that the chances of a freshly minted CPL/MIFR, landing an actual flying gig is very remote but not impossible- there are the blessed few every year that seem to beat the odds.

A positive attitude and a willingness to learn with a hard work ethic will take you very far, and open many doors.
Walk in to a prospective company with the “I am pilot” attitude and your going to be looking for a job for a very long time.

You don’t need to work the ramp for 2-3 years, but expect some time doing menial work, paying your dues. Think of it as an ongoing interview where you get to prove yourself while learning the ropes at the same time.

...Just don't forget to have a little fun along the way

This along with BPF summarizes what it's about. Coming from two highly experienced pilots, one a 705 dude and the other a very experienced pilot who has seen it all.

To everybody else who think a pilot job is for pilot's and etc, I think you have missed the entire concept of this post. While I respect your opinion, I don't agree with it.

All the best to everybody and I truly hope everybody finds themselves in a happy place in this industry. It took me some time, but with the guidance of friends who have been there and done that, the ride to finding a job was actually a rather joyous one.

I wish ya'll the best. Now i'm going to go and chill while watching the Portugal game!

[Johnny767]

I've been hearing about the elusive "Pilot Shortage" since the early 70's.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... nable.html

At the outrageous cost of Flight Training, together with the lousy rate of return (renuneration,) who in their right mind would get into this business?

...people like us, that love Aviation.

It is interesting how you don't see the newly minted Apprentice AME having to work the docks for a season, to prove his work ethic?

No doubt, "supply and demand" has been a curse. But, we also have been our own worst enemy.

If ... nobody did it... the tide would change. It is right up there with "pay for training."

[fingersmac]

If ... nobody did it... the tide would change. It is right up there with "pay for training."

Please enlighten us with how it will change anything other than where a prospective pilot is working while waiting to get a flying job. So instead of working the ramp or dock, they would be working at some other menial job like construction, retail or fast-food. How is that any better?

And it's NOT right up there with "pay for training". I chose not to pursue a job as a flight instructor because I had no money available and no interest in teaching with my minimal aviation experience. Instead of criss-crossing the country (lack of funds) looking for an entry level flying job or taking 6-12 months off to work at some random job to save some money, I chose to work the ramp at a company with a proven ramp-to-flight program. I was paid, worked and treated just like any other ramp attendant.