Scared the shit out of myself last night, what's the lesson?

[niss]

Runway is 2100 X 30 http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF ... 4&t=h&z=16

I was on my second approach on 07 with a gusty crosswind from the North. My approach was a constant 80mph and crabbing into the wind with 25 degrees of Flap. The sock was changing directions and as I got lower I may have encountered a shear from behind.

I tried to get her down early but ended up floating a ways, I decided to go around again but right before I got to fire-walling the throttle she touched down and decelerated for about a second. I gunned her and then realized I wasn't getting up with that much runway left, so I chopped the power and got on the breaks at about half way down.

With the breaking pushing everything forward she got light on the mains and heavy on the nose so breaking wasn't great and the tires were screaming down the runway (almost wheelbarrowing). Then when one oleo compressed more than the other she started rocking and veering off to the right.

I got her stopped right before the taxi way and before she went off the side.

After I stopped shaking I put the plane to bed and tried to figure out what I could have done different.

My thoughts are the flaps.

I might of carried a bit too much flap for the crosswind making her really susceptible to wind shear and gusts. When I decided to go around I forgot to dump my flaps. What I was doing was essentially an (unplanned) touch and go and I should have remembers to dump the flaps before adding power. And lastly I was trying to stop but again forgot to dump the flaps and put the weight back on the mains for better breaking.

Ultimately I think it was a failure to properly assess the situation and remember what to do. But that runway does go by in a hurry and all I was thinking about was not smashing into the cars or houses on Anne St. http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF ... 72,,0,6.03 (streetview pic)

I think I really need to get some more touch and go practice and learn to factor the flaps into my instinct rather than just power and breaks.

What do you guys think, any other pointers to learn from this?

[2R]

Invest in a good laundry product such as Tide ,works for me .Cleans away even the largest of skid marks

[CpnCrunch]

Not sure about Cherokees, but in the 172 I normally do a short-field landing at 60-65mph with a couple of stages of flap. Lower approach speed is much more important than flap for a short-field landing IMO. If I came in at 80mph in a 172 I would float forever - definitely not something you want to do on a 2100 ft runway! Again, I'm not entirely familiar with speeds on a cherokee as I've only flown then a few times, but 80mph does sound fast.

Of course with gusty conditions it may not be such a good idea to come in too slowly either.

[Just another canuck]

Floating?? Raise some flap... just be ready to counteract the sink rate which is about to happen... and fast.

Alternatively, for those flying turbines, just move the power to beta or even a little reverse while in the flare... works for me.

[Hedley]

The hershey-bar cherokee is not a great short field performer, IMHO - you simply cannot safely slow it down because of the induced drag.

Pick and choose carefully which days you fly from a 2100 foot runway with that aircraft. Speed control, and how you deal with loss-of-headwind shear, is critical. And yes, with a gusty crosswind, most people use as little flap as possible - generally not more than 20 degrees in a light aircraft.

[Tim]

Depending on your airspeed you might have benifited from keeping the a/c in ground effect to pick up speed, but given the conditions and your position relative to the rwy that might not have been an option.

That's a tough situation to be in, not much time to pick from two iffy options. Best advice I could give you would be don't let yourself get that far into the situation in the first place. I was in a similar situation when I was working on my PPL and ended up stopping about 100' before the end of the rwy/15 foot cliff.

Unfortunatly it can take situations like this to develope the experince to see the danger coming sooner. The instint comes with time.

One thing I would say not to do though is avoid doing ccts in these conditions again. Find them, practice, improve.

[willing to fly]

From what I remember, 80 makes a good approach speed but you want to start slowing it down over the numbers. A cherokee will float much longer than a 172 will due to the low wing. Is 25 degrees is full flap? You don't want to be doing a go around with full flap. One notch at most on the cherokee.

[. ._]

Sounds like the way I always land.

[Shiny Side Up]

I tried to get her down early but ended up floating a ways,

What exactly do you mean when you "tried to get it down early"?

The hershey-bar cherokee is not a great short field performer, IMHO - you simply cannot safely slow it down because of the induced drag.

I would second that, its also not as great in a crosswind especially down at those angles of attack nescessary to do a good short field as it runs shy on stabilator response and rudder response as well.

You fly a 140 correct niss? 2100 feet ain't enough to be doing touch and goes on, not in all conditions.

A cherokee will float much longer than a 172 will due to the low wing.

Um, no. The position of the wing on the airplane is probably the smallest factor in that equation.

[bawlsdeep]

Zero flap or Minimal flap. More or Max side slip if no pax. Excessive side slip works good in really good gusty conditions. As a gust hits you you get more lift and drag at the same time. Touch down on upwind main with lots of x-wind input, helps with reducing getting bounced back up if you have a hard landing. Once down, flap up. Bob's your Mother's brother. You can play around with it in good conditions to get a feel for it. Landing on one main first seems to help all the time even if it's only a couple seconds till the other main touches. Works good on floats too.

[frog]

Right after touching down you thought you hadn't enough runway to go around but obviousely you had enough runway to stop ?

I think the best advice is to check what you need to do in the POH for GA config and actions to perform.

[hairdo]

Well, I'll start by saying I'm not familiar with the Cherokee. However, two things that work pretty well in getting the weight onto the mains (in a nosewheel aircraft at least) are: dumping the flaps (as you already know); full back pressure on the stick/yoke (but not until the flaps are up and the brakes applied, otherwise you may find yourself flying again). Once the flaps are up and back pressure applied, you will probably note that you are able to use quite a bit more of the brakes without locking them up. So: Brakes, flaps, back pressure, brakes.

Assuming that your aircraft needs about 1000 feet or so of runway to stop, I would say you need to be on the ground no later than the first 500 feet or so. That way you've got enough room to stop and a little room for error as well. With that in mind, once you pass 500 feet down the runway, if you're not on the ground, it's time to go around.

Other than that, go and practice on a somewhat more calm day and do a go-around or two from short final. That way, the procedure should be a bit more instinctive when you need it.

My 2 cents.

[DanWEC]

In the first post you suggested you should have dumped your flaps before adding power? That could have really gotten dangerous, aren't you always suppposed to give power then start bringing flaps up in stages immediately after that? If you had actually done that it could have dropped you VERY hard onto the runway and changed your angle at the same time...

[Meatloaf]

One thing I think should be mentioned, on every landing or takeoff, have a plan. It seems like this landing surprised you so much that you really hadn't thought what your options were or at what point they should happen. With small aircraft on long runways, you can get used to having all the time and pavement in the world.

On every take-off or landing I am performing, I am always thinking what I will do if any number of situations pops up. My take-off abort point I have figured out before I even start the take-off roll. I have aborted a few take-offs for various reasons, once because a passenger had bumped the flap lever inadvertently on the take-off roll (which I hadn't seen) and I noticed I wasn't going to be airborne at my predetermined point. In every case I have stayed on the runway with room to spare. For landing, it should be the same thing. If you aren't firmly attached to terra firma by a certain point, the decision should have already been made to go around. Flap issues, speed issues aside, this is the advice I would give you.

Lots of factors involved in determining where these points are. When the decision is made before the event, there is a lot less thinking to be done at a critical time. Based on what you've said, that wheel touching down made you think that your landing was over, only to be reconsidered a moment later to go around and reconsidered again a moment after that. In those few seconds, you have already used up a few hundred feet. This should have been a single decision decided before you touched down that if you weren't on the ground in the first 300-500 feet you go around again regardless of anything else, and critique your decision later in the bar.

There are situations where your take-off speed will be reached at a point where it will be impossible to abort and remain on the runway. In the space between you should still have the plan. Know the aircraft and the performance charts and still think what you will do and where you will go if the worst happens and long before it actually does happen. You should never be pushing forward on the power lever hoping for a miracle.

[sheephunter]

Flew more in a cherokee six than a 140 but most was out of 1700' gravel strip at 2500'. My opinion is once you were on the ground and committed to being on the ground get those flaps dumped to secure the mains to the pavement / gravel, brake, backpressure. Be very carefull dumping the flaps on your go-around. I prefer if I have to is to keep that flap (like one or two notches that you were configured to land) , full power, keep the nose down and build as much speed to a safe point above stall and climb out from there and bleed off the flaps very slowly and cautiously... And I'm not sure they float better than a 172, that wing likes speed. And take this advise as you want as it is only how I would do it and not necessarily as described in your POH.

[niss]

Thanks for the info guys!

A few clarifications:

-This is actually my home airport. All my time is there and in this aircraft.
-When I said I tried to get her down early, I meant that I was trying to touch down where I was supposed to and not where I floated to.
-IIRC when I did touch and gos (at this field) it was a normal approach, when you landed raise flaps and give her gas while rolling. A rejected landing was full power then flaps up in stages with out touching. *Again I meant once on the runway dump flaps then power not before touching down.
-I was determined to go around but I didnt realize I was so close to the ground, I had no intention of rolling out. When I touched I 'poured the coals' and tried but too much runway was going by. Not wanting to skim cars, houses, trees, and a water tower that are off the end of 07, I decided (panicked) and opted for a stop with whatever runway I had left.
-I didn't think I had enough Runway to stop after I realized I didn't have enough to go around, I just hoped I had enough.
- 25 degrees is 2nd notch of flap.
-80mph is my normal approach speed for this strip, much slower for a shorter landing isn't necessary.

[niss]

http://www.facebook.com/v/349581950216

This is what it normally looks like.

[CpnCrunch]

I second meatloaf's post: you need to make that go-around decision earlier. Get into the habit of doing a go-around if you are floating even a little bit too much, so that it becomes automatic. And never dump the flaps when you're a few feet above the ground - that would have made things even worse! You should probably get some practise doing last-minute go-arounds so you can figure out what your plane can and cannot do. Maybe do this at an airport with a longer runway and no houses/roads on the overrun!

[. ._]

Here's a sort of relevant thread.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=15371

-istp

[confuzed]

Alternatively, for those flying turbines, just move the power to beta or even a little reverse while in the flare... works for me.

You're not serious are you??? Wow, that's the FIRST time I've EVER heard that, as most turbines I've flown have specifically said in their operating manuals do not operate aircraft in Beta or Reverse while airborne...flare or not, you're still airborne and that's asking for trouble IMHO.

[Moose47]

G'day confuzed

It was not uncommon for U.S.A.F. C-130 pilots in Viet Nam to put the props in reverse 30 or so feet above the ground when landing on short strips.

Cheers...Chris

[Jungle Jim]

Niss,

Were you on a low approach and dragging it in at 80 mph? This sort of situation will give you the results you experienced. With a higher approach you can chop the power over the numbers and don't have the energy to create too much excitement on touch down.

Jim

[Just another canuck]

And never dump the flaps when you're a few feet above the ground - that would have made things even worse!

Why would it make things worse? If you're floating, raise the flaps slightly and settle down onto runway... am I missing something here?

Edit to add that in this case, a go-around would have been the better/safer option, but this technique can be used to land short if need be.

You're not serious are you??? Wow, that's the FIRST time I've EVER heard that, as most turbines I've flown have specifically said in their operating manuals do not operate aircraft in Beta or Reverse while airborne...flare or not, you're still airborne and that's asking for trouble IMHO.

I'm very serious... it works well. I've used this technique often in the past and still do today, mostly into runways where there is NO go-around option and/or you have to land in the first 100 metres. Over the threshold, flare, then if I feel the floating sensation, beta/reverse... what's the problem?

[slam525i]

I have a personal rule about this: Change your mind once, and only once. That is to say once you've throttled up for the go-around, don't then decide to try to stop it. Precious runway is being used up as you alter between stopping and going, not to mention your airspeed isn't moving in either direction. If you decide to go around, stick with it.

The other thing is, it is almost always safer to go around until your wheels touch. If you came in too high and too hot, you're already carrying extra speed, making a go-around that much easier. In your case, you touched about half way down with extra airspeed. That extra airspeed would have made it much easier to lift off again. If you've already decided to go around and your wheels touch, I would stick with it and keep the throttle up as per the rule above. On the other hand, if you're already on the brakes, don't throttle up - you may be much slower than you think you are. Also keep in mind that most over-run accidents in small airplanes are survivable due to the low speed.

Finally, NEVER EVER raise the flaps before applying power. Raising the flaps raises your stall speed. Power first (Carb Heat off), keep the nose down (push if need be) to get safe flying speed, and then raise the flaps slowly. Very few (if any) airplanes will fail to climb at full power with full flaps; it just won't do it as well as with part/no flaps. Whatever you do, don't stall out on the transition to climb.

That's my 2 cents anyway....

P.S. "Braking" is what you do with your toes/heels. "Breaking" is what would have happend to the airplane if the former wasn't sufficient. </anal>

[niss]

Niss,

Were you on a low approach and dragging it in at 80 mph? This sort of situation will give you the results you experienced. With a higher approach you can chop the power over the numbers and don't have the energy to create too much excitement on touch down.

Jim

No i was on the front end of the power arc. She just wanted to float. With what everyone here put in mind, I still think had I cleaned up the flaps once I touched I would have made a more successful T&G, rather than a Touch-and pray she stops in time.