YXL FSS rant

[Cap'n P8]

Icebound,

That's exactly the purpose of the circuit...however when you're talking about an MF everybody is supposed to know where everybody is anyways, so it's not really necessary.

I could have sworn that the Regs allowed you to join anywhere when going into an airport with an MF (with a ground station in operation), but after rereading the CAR's and the AIP it appears that this is not so. You are allowed to join straight into the base or straight into the final leg, but it does not say anything about right hand circuits so I would assume they mean left base only, and that arrivals from the upwind side should proceed from overhead to the midleft downwind. Having said that, I am based in Pickle Lake and everybody here uses the right base when they're inbound from the North and 27 is in use. Winnipeg Radio has yet to bother anybody about it...Knock on wood!

As far as the communication thing goes, I have a quarrel with this one. Here is the reg:

General MF Reporting Requirements

602.98 (1) Every report made pursuant to this Division shall be made on the mandatory frequency that has been specified for use in the applicable MF area.

(2) Every report referred to in subsection (1) shall be

(a) directed to the ground station associated with the MF area, if a ground station exists and is in operation; or

(b) broadcast, if a ground station does not exist or is not in operation.

Notice how it says every report made pursuant to this division...well they go on to specify in detail what is required by this division. Here are excerpts of what is required:

For Departure

before moving onto the take-off surface, report the pilot-in-command's departure procedure intentions;

For Arrival

(a) before entering the MF area and, where circumstances permit, shall do so at least five minutes before entering the area, giving the aircraft's position, altitude and estimated time of landing and the pilot-in-command's arrival procedure intentions;

(b) when joining the aerodrome traffic circuit, giving the aircraft's position in the circuit;

(c) when on the downwind leg, if applicable;

(d) when on final approach; and

(e) when clear of the surface on which the aircraft has landed.

If you have made all those calls then you have met the requirement of the CAR's. Anything above and beyond is at your discretion as necessary. In my opinion, if you see a conflict with another aircraft tell them. You shouldn't have to worry about pissing off an FSS guy. Having said that in day to day operations especially when the frequency is busy, you would obviously want to cut down on the extraneous chatter.

[oldncold]

HEY folks the bearskin air sandy mid air of 95 changed the required first call from 5 mile to 15 miles in yxl.

Secondly these guys are not tower controllers/ however with the amount of ifr traffic in and out of yxl you cannot blame them for acting like it at times. Thirdly, wpg center often assigns repsonsibility for seperation to the fss when 1/ their traffic load is high 2/ below cetain altitude or distance. This debate should be when 1000 pilots and ops mgrs descend onto nav canada's head office and hog tie the director to sit inside a beach waiting for a hour for a take off clearance on an ifr day.

maybe then they will pry away the ils from yhd and give yxl the service its traffic level deserves.

[Wasn't Me]

DOC

Just remember it's an advisory service tell him what your going to do and don't let him or her tell you otherwise. I ran into a guy a few months back at XL. He tried to control the traffic instead of his job. These people have bosses at NAV CANADA who can take care of it for you. NAV CANADA doesn't want the resposibilty of a mid air either. Just call with a time and see what happens.

[Unable Due Traffic]

oldncold wrote
"Thirdly, wpg center often assigns repsonsibility for seperation to the fss when 1/ their traffic load is high 2/ below cetain altitude or distance."

Not for IFR Aircraft !!!!!
FSS will get approval for SVFR in the contol Zone, but WILL NOT be responsible for IFR aircraft!! Period.

[bigfssguy]

The only positive control we have is vehicles on the ground at no time can we assign anything with IFR or VFR pertaining to seperation. Like i said before if FSS start to tell you what to do then report them. It is absolutely wrong for us to do this. We can request you to do something but it is at the pilots discretion if they want to comply. I have on many occasions have had 2 people going head to head and rather than asking them there position and if they can see each other yet i will ask one A/C to stop at this altitude and the other to stop at this altitude til they know there know they are past each other then i can ignore them cause the conflict has been solved. Now that being said you can tell me to go piss up a rope and there is nothing i can do but in my experiences if you request an A/C to do something they will ussually comply. We aren't going to ask you to do something for no reason most pilots know if we ask them for something it is for a good reason and they are more than happy to help out. This cuts out a lot of chatter on the MF that apparently FSS are guilty of.


As for asking you to report in certain places because of a slew of reasons. In most stations the FSS there will provide an advisory for a 20 mile circle from the airport this can be directly be attributed to the YXL midair and the Cranbrook incident as well. I have always lived by the 20 mile or 10 minutes whatever is sooner. This is because of other A/C in the area as well as vehicle control. For instance a lot of FSS will ask you to report 5 miles back this is when we will start to look for you so we will have a visual of you. Sometimes you will be asked to report 10 back i use this in VFR conditions because when you report 10 back i will start to get vehicles of the runways for your arrival. These distances all depend on A/C performance i will handle vehicles differently for a C185 as compared to a C550. What it comes down to is the FSS is asking you for these reporting points for a reason. Like someone said in an earlier post just call up and give a time and not another transmission. Well as long as you make the mandatory calls your golden but we ask for extra reports to help clarify traffic and for vehicles and other reasons. Really we are asking you to help us so we can help you. As FSS our hope id for everyone to get on the ground or clear of the zone safely and withas little hassle as possible.

[cow-tipping-in-the-night]

All we are saying is give us traffic that could be a conflict. Then shut the FU&K up! We are FAR more capable of sorting out what is a conflict and what isn't than any FSS "specialist".

I am an FSS who agrees with this statement 100%. Except that where I work there are big fancy jets with TCAS who always want to know about the lone helicopter, 50 ft above the treetops, 15 miles south of the field, doing a hover and conflicting only with the ravens. You would think that by the time you're driving a multi-million dollar machine you would be far more capable of sorting out conflicts. But jet drivers don't often sort out their own conflicts because they usually fly into controlled airports and at an uncontrolled airport everyone else is (unofficially) expected to get out of the way. .

[snaproll20]

icebound

It is difficult to give you a definitive answer. Not to insult you, but as a "recently soloed" pilot, you have not been involved in the practical side of arriving at places, especially uncontrolled ones.
Aviation is dollars. Therefore, pros are headed for the threshold, not wasting dollars flying circles over the airport.
You cannot EVER really know WHERE to look for a converging aircraft. You are looking in three dimensions and much of that area is not visible to you. I.e. above, below and behind, where you are blind. (They say the one you collide with is the one you never see.)
Mathematically speaking, if you put ten aircraft buzzing around on different headings, varying altitudes and speeds in a restricted locale (airport) without radio contact, there will eventually be a collision. The answer to that equation is a value of TIME, so the less time you spend in the air the better.
The 'see and be seen' concept is all well and good, but look at the studies that have been done on how 'invisible' other air traffic can be from the flight deck, especially when you are perhaps doing landing checklists.
Communication (radio) helps considerably to defuse any conflicts.
To spend unnecessary time orbiting with unseen or unknown traffic is a waltz I never want to do...Based on nasty experiences.

[Doc]

Cow-tipping-in-the-night.....has anybody actually ever tipped a cow over? Just wondering why this FSS shop ties up the freq telling me who has already landed, or will land several minutes ahead of me? Or about the guys that have departed and are headed away from me? I've had a couple of close calls with aircraft that would have been no problem, IF I had just been able to get a word to them? And the summer cometh, and this will only get worse.

[FREEFALL]

CARS 602.99 was omitted from upontop325's post

"The pilot-in-command of a VFR or IFR aircraft that is operating at an uncontrolled aerodrome that lies within an MF area shall report the pilot-in-command's intentions before entering the manoeuvring area of the aerodrome."

[Doc]

Ah, Freefall...nice to know. But this would help clear up the freq..how?

[FREEFALL]

If you don't like receiving an airport advisory from a trainee that tells you what they had for breakfast, sort it out on 126.7 then tell RADIO.

[Doc]

All very well and good, but sort out what on 126.7?? It's the babble on the MF I have a problem with. 26.7 isn't where the traffic is..it's all on the MF. It's the guy that's comming right at you while your'e both on the MF.
And what did they have for breakfast?
And who's "RADIO"??

[Cap'n P8]

Sorry about missing one, oops. The reason I made my post was for a particular event that happened to me.

I was coming back to Pickle and got shit on by FSS (in the nicest possible way) for making a call on the radio not directed at the ground station. I had made all the required calls and other ones as requested. I made a call to an outbound aircraft that I had visual with (we were converging but separated vertically) to let him know my position in relation to his and that I would remain level until we had passed.

[confuzed]

And who's "RADIO"??

He's one of the greatest football managers of all time, come doc get with the times!! Didn't you see the movie?!?

[bigfssguy]

NICE.... my profession being compared to a mentally handicapped equipment manager/Coach. If thats not a shot at FSS i don't know what is...LOL.

[flyinhigh]

NoNo,
Being a coach/manager of football team is much harder than being an FSS radio jockey.
now that is a shot. haha, just kiddin bigffsguy

[Doc]

Hey Confuzed....how they hanging?

[FREEFALL]

Solve your head-to-head on 126.7. That, in my experience, is where most conflicts are resolved between pilots. Your conflict might not have the highest priority for the operating specialist at the time, but still a priority to them none-the-less. As like pilots, there are good and bad specialists. I have seen my fair share of all four. A good specialist knows when to let aircraft solve a conflict on the MF and when to work it out themselves. Sucks to be you if you fly into an airprot where lots of FSS trainees work, but I am sure even you were not perfect when you started out at your profession.

[Doc]

Who monitors 126.7 while in the MF zone at YXL?....anybody?
Who could hear 126.7 IF they had it tuned in?....anybody?
If we have a mid-air near YXL while listening to the MF, not being able to "sort it out".....because the "specialist" feels that the traffic we need to "sort out" isn't his highest piority "at the time".....we get scraped out of the trees....and the "specialist" has a bad day!
Freefall....you're either a really new "specialist", or you haven't "been there"........you need to see something go by "real close" at 400 knots son.
You'd be amazed how smooth it'd go if we had nobody to talk to at all! Just winds and meter....

[FREEFALL]

Obviously things are done differently in Ontario than Manitoba. Ever been to YIV?

[bigfssguy]

Doc, maybe in YXL solving conflicts isn't common but in other parts of the country it is quite common. In YTH this is a common practice when the pilot is given the advisory and passed traffic they will quite often come back and say they are talking on 126.7. so to me that is more or less the end of the conflict and i won't bother them again except maybe to make sure they worked it out fine.

I am only 31/2 years in but i have been there and done that and am fairly experienced in a busy airport. I haven't seen it all but i know enough to say this practice works just fine and in 21/2 years in YTH we haven't had to scrap one plane out of the trees and we are a fair bit busier than YXL not a lot but enough to feel confident that this is a fairly safe practice. It works of you have 2 radios and are comfortable doing it. SO yet again it comes down to comfort level, hell some FSS might not be comfortable with it but if it can cut down on frequency congestion that you eluded to in your first post. Maybe give it a try it might work.

[confuzed]

Hey Confuzed....how they hanging?

Hey doc.....one's a little high, one's a little low.....made the mistake of disagreeing with the wife last week and they're still recovering How bout you, how're things going in your neck of the woods???

[chip]

I have asked the fss when I give up my initial call up that I have the traffic but they still give it to me any ways. they said there is no provision for the term "have the traffic" so I said if I check each piece of traffic ie. i check the 172 inbound from the north, the 185 heading north etc. I have found giving everything required by CARS, and they seem to leave me alone and I know there is a conflict with a aircraft I always say I will remain at this altitude till I am past the traffic or have visual, same on departure i.e. I will head Runway Heading til past the traffic etc. When ever I have come into cyxl from the west I have been ASK are you going to go overhead to join the circuit? or what are your intensions on joining the circuit? I TELL them which way I am going to join.

[bigfssguy]

CHIP.... You gotta remember we get pressure from big wigs just like you do. Your Chief pilot will get on you about your feul load and how much you can carry, well on the flip side we have our Team supervisors hitting us on our proficiency checks regarding certain practices. So the FSS may have had some internal reminder or warning regarding curcuit paterns. I just checked our Manual of operations and it states nowhere in there regarding "have the traffic" there is a provision though for "having the numbers". This means that they don't make an issue of it so by the FSS repeating traffic to you after you said that they aren't right but aren't wrong either. This is why in some stations they may pass all the traffic to you and others they will just roger you. Now YXL may have an unsaid rule that they always give the traffic, this could have came from an audit or maybe a few FSS got burnt by someone saying this and not knowing all the traffic so they started telling everyone even if they said it. There are always a million reasons for every action you take as pilots and we take as FSS. If it is a really big deal to you stop into the FSS and say hi and ask them i realize it is a long staircase and all the way on the other side of the terminal from Robins but it might be worth the trip.

[Unable Due Traffic]

I know that this topic has been flogged to death....... However I would like to throw out an idea from my perspective.

Doc wrote:
"And what's with this "overhead" crap? EVERYWHERE else, we join on base, or final, or whatever works out best...but in YXL, everybody must meet overhead to join downwind...."

First, I assume that Doc has either cancelled IFR or is on a contact and is approaching from the non circuit side of the runway.

Second, I agree with Doc on this one. If it makes sense to join overhead because of traffic, or lack thereof, then do it. But if just causes a "cluster f***" with the other inbounds, that isn't safe.

Third, I know that all of the guys and gals, going into YXL, try to cancel IFR as soon as they can to keep the traffic moving. Believe me when I say that doing that it makes my job a hell of alot easier.

However, one way to avoid the overhead proceedure is to request a visual approach. EG: If you were inbound from the west and 34 is the runway in use, ask ATC for the "Left visual RWY 34".

The advantages:
Now you don't have to join overhead for 34. If you feel that you should due to traffic, then cancel IFR and do it.

The disadvantages:
You are still on an IFR clearance and that slows down the traffic flow from the IFR side of it. (I suppose that you could cancel once you were establised on left base without fear of being written up).

Just a thought....

BTW weather limits for us to approve the visual at YXL are:" No cloud below 3500asl and a reported vis of 3sm or more"