Scared the shit out of myself last night, what's the lesson?

[. ._]

No matter what machine you got, just slam full power and it'll go up at least a little bit then you can figure out what you're doing.

If you got a jet, you might have a bit of a touch and go.

Keep 'er in the middle of the runway, and you'll probably be cool.

That's the ISTP synopsis of this thread.

-istp

[chinglish]

I have some experience on Cherokees and short strips. I agree the biggest mistake was keeping the flaps down while trying to break. Coming in at 80 with flap 25 normally works fine with strong winds but remember that the extra speed needs to be bled off as you cross the threshold or you will float (as you noticed). Another consideration is if you came in at a low angle. Coming in flat makes it harder to bleed speed in the flare. I don't really have a reason on why you weren't able to get back off the runway with flaps 25 and full power. I used to use flaps 25 and full power on my touch and go's at a similar 2100 ft strip and it was a non issue. It takes about 1000ft to safely stop a -140 so a good rule of thumb is get it down by half way or go around.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Niss

First of all I am impressed you had the gumption to lay out your story on Avcanada so others could learn from your experience. I am also impressed that there were no smart ass put downs of you , just usefull informative posts discussing techniques relavent to the PA 28....... at least untill the moment the thread degenerated into a beta inflight flame war

I will not add any technique comments because I think they have been covered. The one thing I would like to comment on is the fact that you changed your mind, ie started to go around and then rejected the takeoff. This IMO is an area which is not really covered in flight training yet is a scenario in many light airplane accidents, especially the very dangerous scenario where the pilot has started a reject than changed their mind and attempted a too late go around.

If you wait too long to make the go around, realise a go around is no longer possible, and do your best to get stopped, the worst thing that will happen is the aircraft will go off the end of the runway and sustain damage. The likelyhood of injuries or death is quite low in these kinds of accidents.

If you wait too long to make the go around , but try anyways, the worse thing that could happen is a stall/spin if the aircraft is pulled off the ground when it reaches the end of the runway but does not have sufficent airspeed, or hits the trees/obstacles at the airport edge because it is on an abnormally low flight path. These kinds of accidents usually result in serious injury and fatalities.

When asked for advice from low time pilots for dealing with short field landings gone bad I stress the importance of having a preplanned desired flight path and airspeed for the final approach and if the aircraft flight path has deviated from the desired path to fix it or if the deviation is large make an early go around. I also give them two rules of thumb.

1) If the airplane bounces immediately go around

2) If the airplane has touched down braking has commenced and the aircraft has started to deaccelerate , do not go around.

[MUSKEG]

In response to Rule #1 above. Are you serious? See thats whats wrong with generalizations. Applying that rule some would never do a full stop.

[Shiny Side Up]

1) If the airplane bounces immediately go around

The problem I always have with this is it usually means if the pilot has made the decision to go around after contacting the ground it means that they were completely oblivious to all the bad things that happened to create the bounce in the first place. With niss's scare here the thing that concerns me is this statement:

I tried to get her down early but ended up floating a ways,

That usually means, in ten out of ten cases where I se a student make the mistake, or a licensed pilot do it, that they only realised the airplane was going to float after it was in the process of floating. I've seen several remedies to it, none of which are good, at the point at which the pilot is realising that they aren't going to land where they had planned.

The real problem here is the pilot pushed a bad approach and didn't clue into that they weren't going to touch down where they wanted to until after the fact. While some may council if you make a bad landing give the power and go around, I'd stress if you think the approach is going to lead to a bad landing go around then.

Regardless, the Cherokee certainly wouldn't be my first choice for a short performer, even the ones I've flown with STOL kits. Especially the landings if you don't have toe brakes. Retracting the flaps, trying to hold the control wheel back and using the handbrake is a bit of a handfull.

[Big Pistons Forever]

In response to Rule #1 above. Are you serious? See thats whats wrong with generalizations. Applying that rule some would never do a full stop.

I suggest you read my whole post. It was clearly directed at low time pilots flying in to short runways. If you are going into a short field and you bounce it means you are going too fast which means everything is now against you as you are in the air burning up runway, not where you should be firmly on the ground at your preselected touchdown point. Rather than force a deteriorating situation I cannot think of a situation where you are not better off going around and fixing the primary problem which is not the bounce but a poorly flown final approach.

A properly flown short field landing starts with the opening comment of my last post regarding advice to new pilots

"When asked for advice from low time pilots for dealing with short field landings gone bad I stress the importance of having a preplanned desired flight path and airspeed for the final approach and if the aircraft flight path has deviated from the desired path to fix it or if the deviation is large make an early go around"

[niss]

I tried to get her down early but ended up floating a ways,

That usually means, in ten out of ten cases where I se a student make the mistake, or a licensed pilot do it, that they only realised the airplane was going to float after it was in the process of floating. I've seen several remedies to it, none of which are good, at the point at which the pilot is realising that they aren't going to land where they had planned.

The real problem here is the pilot pushed a bad approach and didn't clue into that they weren't going to touch down where they wanted to until after the fact. While some may council if you make a bad landing give the power and go around, I'd stress if you think the approach is going to lead to a bad landing go around then.

[/quote]

My approach was dead nuts 80mph as per poh and and good angle. Where the approach went south on my was the wind shear in ground effect. That was my 2nd approach both were consistand and I experienced the same thing on my first approach, constant until short short final.

[Kilo-Kilo]

I think I am getting lost...How did you float farther on final or flair when you encountered wind shear?

[AuxBatOn]

niss,

I think the lesson here is much more than "How to Fly", but a lesson of airmanship. Set your own limits and adhere to them. Religiously. If it won't work, go somewhere else or stay on the ground if you're not airborne yet.

With time and experience, your limits will expand.

[hoptwoit]

Niss: As you know, I've put lots of hours flying UBC...and many other Cherokee versions as well..and my take on your situation is that with the gusty crosswinds, you should have left the flaps up on final...look at the windsock and use that to decide the amount of flap. If it is hangin limpl FULL flap (35* on the PA28-140); sock sticking straight out ZERO flaps.

This is some of the best advice you have seen. I did all my training on a 140 cherokee and now own one. Grafting procedures that work in a 172 onto a cherokee is a bad idea. Wing is different, tail is different, flaps and use of flap is different, carb heat usage is different.
Get an instructor who really knows a cherokee to help you. A book like this can help too.http://www.pilotshop.co.za/index.php?pa ... t&Itemid=2

To sum up old dogs comments flaps for landing in a cherokee are an all or nothing proposal.

[MUSKEG]

I am going to call bullcrap on the windshear in ground effect. Turbulance yes. In 33 years of flying I have never encountered shear at 3 feet above the ground. Fire away.

[kzcvtm]

Niss,

I've flown a Warrior II - 151 and 161, Archer and Arrow out of YKZ. One of the first things I was told by my instructor was as BPF said if you bounce - go around. This has saved my bacon on more than one occasion. I've been in a situation where I 'floated' for an exorbitant amount of time and when I reached my 'go - no go' point I firewalled the throttle and got the hell out of there announcing to the tower "on the overshoot". I never let my pride dictate that I have to land this time.... the next approach will likely be better.

Keep practicing. I know I do when I get the chance.

kzcvtm

[niss]

I am going to call bullcrap on the windshear in ground effect. Turbulance yes. In 33 years of flying I have never encountered shear at 3 feet above the ground. Fire away.

I may certainly be mistaken but I was dead nuts on the approach and my first go around was the same situation with the windsock bouncing around from one direction to the other.

Again, maybe it wasn't windshear, but I know I was pegged at 80 as per POH.

*Edit, I forgot that you can reduce appch speed by 3mph/notch of flap so maybe I should have come in at 74. But would an extra 6mph with the flaps have caused that, especially with the crosswind?

[Old Dog Flying]

Niss: Certainly any excess speed on final will produce an unexpected "float" which, on a short runway can leave you with egg on your face. And if you combine the gusting crosswind, partial flaps and excess speed, you will get the same outcome.

I put a great many hours on your aircraft at YMJ where strong winds, averaging 23 knots, crosswinds and low time students made for some interesting situations. Yes we had long, wide, paved runways but the conditions were there for bent tin if the aircraft were not flown properly.

After retiring from the CAF, I went on to manage a fairly large flying club which utilized Cherokees exclusively and we had a very ugly accident history because of really bad training practices...three bent aircraft in the first month on the job and the CFI refused to change his policy. All of the accidents were the result of students not being trained to use flaps early in their training then getting into trouble away from home while attempting to land on 2800' runways.

Each accident was identical to the others...aircraft being forced onto the runway with full flaps and excess speed, resulting in bent prop, bent nose gear, damaged wing tip and those were the lucky ones. We wrote off one Cherokee 140 that had departed the runway after wheel barrowing, again with full flaps and excess speed, and ending up on its back with far more damage than usually could be economically repaired.

If you are still having problems go back to the POH and follow it and don't become a test pilot.

Regards
Barney

[photocaver]

I have one more observation on this thread. Niss posted a video of "what a landing normally looks like", and I felt he was landing a bit long.
I measured the time from when he passed over the numbers to when the plane contacted the surface, 4.5 seconds which is about 400 feet at 60 mph. The runway is 2,100' so the lost 400' is not a disaster, but if this is the way Niss normally lands, one more place to practice is using the whole runway when it is short.