What are the best courses to take

[dirk82]

I am 28 and looking to start my commercial training this fall, with so many schools and so many options out there I am wondering what courses and ratings are a must have to start a career in the industry. Are the college programs with the business admin degrees the way to go or is my money better spent on more hours and advanced training courses ie. the bush pilot 50 hour program. Also is being 28 a little late to get started, I know so many people get started right out of high school. I guess all I am looking for is any advice that would help me along my way.
thanks

[Bede]

Hey dirk,

1. 28 is not too late to get started. You'll probably end up with a good paying job by the time you're 40. More of a concern is that 28 year olds often have wives, GF's, etc. Does your's support you living in some remote locale making bad money for the next 5 years?
2. If you want to fly floats, the way I would do it is find the cheapest floatplane and do all your training on it. Sell it when you're done. Float time is all that counts for a float job and you will have an advantage with 200 hrs floasts. A CPL will cost you as much as a float plane, but you have an asset at the end. At one time, I had a small 2 place float plane that I bought for $20K. You get what you pay for, but it did the job. Second choice would be one of the (subsidized) colleges such as Confed in TBay or Sault. University is a waste of money and you will never recoup the cost. Third choice would be a small flying school that you know will give you a good bang for your buck.

[dirk82]

do the courses with college degrees give any advantage in the job market. I have enough money saved to pay for my cpl, ifr,multi and night rating and probably my float rating too. If I take the course at my local flight training center in kelowna I can keep working and not have any debt when im done. If I go the colllege route its a different story. What would be the better choice givin the 2 options?

[AMM]

THE INDUSTRY IS FULL!

Have you looked into the job prospects of a 200h wonder (CPL, MIFR and all)? Have you really?
Even if you do get a job and build some time you'll probably end up on the shity end of this growing statistic viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65691&start=25&view=viewpoll.

[Mihai]

THE INDUSTRY IS FULL!

Have you looked into the job prospects of a 200h wonder (CPL, MIFR and all)? Have you really?
Even if you do get a job and build some time you'll probably end up on the shity end of this growing statistic viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65691&start=25&view=viewpoll.

+1
if, after you have seen what the perspectives and conditions are, you still want to get into this... go ahead and good luck!

[dirk82]

Thanks for the replys, I never realized how many miserable people there are in the industry But I think if you polled any work place the stat would be alot higher than 1in4 that hate their job. I have ran my own company for the past 6 years and made ok money. I didnt get rich but did ok. But after 10 years in the trades I hate my job and could not see myself here in another 10. I wake up each morning dreading work and wondering which one of my star employees isnt going to be at work cause his gramma died for the 6th time this year. Every industry has its good times and bad. I dont expect things to be easy street the whole way through but I love every time I get up flying. As for the pay being low, I work in construction Im used to low paying gigs.

[modi13]

How you spend your money depends entirely on the career path you want to take. If you want to fly floats for the rest of your life, do what Bede said. If you want to work for an airline, try to get into a subsidized college program, or at least one that lets you defer costs through student loans, and put as much of your money as possible to multi-engine pilot-in-command time. Some airlines want post-secondary education of some kind, but it doesn't matter whether it's an associate arts degree or a Ph.D in aeronautical engineering, and those companies are really on the high end. It's not easy to transition from floats to airline, unless you're flying a Twin Otter; most airlines won't look twice at a guy with 4000 hours of single-engine day VFR time when they've got someone with 1000 hours of multi-turbine IFR time. Whether you want to go to an airline will also determine whether you need to get your ATPL, which means trying to get all the PIC, night and instrument requirements, or you'll never make captain.
However, regardless of where you want to end up, you almost certainly won't start flying right away. 95% of the commercial pilots in Canada start out on the ramp, dock, dispatch or instructing. If you start on the dock or ramp, you'll be working 18 hours a day, seven days a week for minimum wage, busting your ass doing whatever horrendous task management has decided you're just barely competent to handle; and if you don't like it, they'll find someone else to replace you. Pilots are, literally, a dime a dozen, and there's always going to be someone else who's willing to do worse jobs for lower pay, just to get a chance at a cockpit. You'll also end up somewhere like Pickle Lake or Yellowknife, and I've heard say that the wait on the ramp for most of the companies in Yellowknife right now is 2-3 years.
Instructing is a good way to get some flying hours, if you're willing to spend $7000-10000 on the rating, but again, most of that will be single-engine day VFR. Very few instructors go straight to an airline like Pacific Coastal unless they taught multi. You'll also need to be prepared to work a second job just so you can pay rent, which means very little sleep or free time.
In the end, whether it's worth it depends entirely on the person. I've always wanted to be a pilot, and there's nothing else I can see myself doing, so I'm willing to put up with the hassles, but a lot of people can't cut it. I've worked the ramp, dock, dispatch and instructed, some at the same time, and they all suck when all you want to be doing is making a living from flying. Most pilots never make it to Air Canada or WestJet either, so you need to be prepared to never make money; not only do you start low, but you'll probably never make it to a high salary. I'm sticking it out, but I have no responsibilites, and I had no problem dropping everything to get to a new job within a matter of days, so if you have a spouse, kids, or a mortgage, it's going to be more of a challenge. You're the only one who knows whether it will be worth it in the end.

[dirk82]

Thanks for all the relplys, some helpfull some humbling. So if I would like to land a airline gig buying a C172 to log hours in would just be a waste of time I guess. Were is the best place to log multi hours (I cant afford a twin engine). Sorry for all the questions, Im learning here and advice from the guys who have put in their time is worth gold compared to the words from the local flying school

[modi13]

Thanks for all the relplys, some helpfull some humbling. So if I would like to land a airline gig buying a C172 to log hours in would just be a waste of time I guess. Were is the best place to log multi hours (I cant afford a twin engine). Sorry for all the questions, Im learning here and advice from the guys who have put in their time is worth gold compared to the words from the local flying school

It wouldn't be a waste of time - all flying hours are valuable, especially if it's pilot-in-command - and you could have a lot of fun in it, but what really matters is multi-engine and turbine time. I've heard of guys applying to companies with King Airs with 1500 hours and being told that they'd still have to work the ramp; you'll probably have to do it one way or another. Most schools and clubs charge about the same rates for their twins, although Seminoles tend to be cheaper than Senecas or Duchesses, so if you can find somewhere with a smaller plane it will be cheaper. The hours you get from renting or owning will also be miniscule compared to what you get from working for a company, and 50 hours of multi PIC, while useful and helpful on your ATPL, isn't that big a deal. It might set you apart from the other guys applying for the ramp job, but you'll have to work the ramp regardless. Not only that, but most companies don't care about your flying hours unless it's "operational", which is a big problem instructors have; unless you got the time flying for an airline or charter company and have experience with schedules, regulations and procedures, they really don't care how many hours you have. Just remember that when it comes time to upgrade to captain, you'd better have your ATPL, which means you better not have spent your entire career as a co-pilot and don't have enough PIC time to get your licence.

[North Shore]

Other than getting your basic Multi-IFR or Multi rating, don't waste your hard-earned money buying multi time - you simply will not be able to afford enough time to make a difference to your career. PIC, in any denomination (single, float, multi) is gold, f/o time, less so. I'm a float guy, so I'm kinda biased, but my inclination would be to get as much float time as you can, and then go after a float job. That could be on a 185 or a Twotter. If it were me, in retrospect, I'd go after the 185 gig, then chase a Beaver, then a Beech 18. Then, I'd go looking at a company with Navajos and Kingairs, and so on... PIC all the way.
The twotter route would be good, but you'll sit in the right seat for a while before they'll trust you in the left...

Whatever you choose, make sure that, for your 300 NM cross-country for your CPL, you do more than the minimum 300NM. It will be the only time in your career that you'll have an aeroplane at your disposal - no-one telling you where and when to go. Take the plane, and head across the Prairies, or down the coast into the USA. You'll learn more in one day of XC than you will in a month of spinning around the practice area...

Good luck!

[dirk82]

thanks north shore. I would love to fly floats. I dont want to pry to much but do you make a decent living flying floats. I know at first wages are terrible but after a few years how does it look.

[North Shore]

Well, I don't actually fly floats per se any more... Unless you live on the West Coast, you can't make a year-round living on floats in Canada(unless you go and work for Borek in the Maldives. That being said, it appears that Otter pilots are getting ~ $5 to$6 K a month during the season - that's not bad, per month, but it does leave you short in the winter unless you are lucky enough to get to a place that flies skis...
I was more suggesting floats as a stepping stone into other things, seeing as you'll get a bunch of PIC time.

[loopa]

THE INDUSTRY IS FULL!

Have you looked into the job prospects of a 200h wonder (CPL, MIFR and all)? Have you really?
Even if you do get a job and build some time you'll probably end up on the shity end of this growing statistic viewtopic.php?f=54&t=65691&start=25&view=viewpoll.

+1
if, after you have seen what the perspectives and conditions are, you still want to get into this... go ahead and good luck!

While I'm not suggesting that it's not tough to get a job, it certainly isn't full. With the right dedication, networking, communication skills, and attitude, the 200 hour wonder will score something. The problem that blocks so many from getting that first job is that they're entitled a flying job in an industry where the system is corrupt and takes advantage of it's skippers. This automatically promotes the wrong attitude when looking for work, hence causing some guys finding work while others keep trying and trying with no end result and at the end, resignation. It also has a lot to do with being at the right place at the right time, as well as not only who you know, but who knows you. These are all factors, that a fresh candidate in the industry, can provide a solid foundation of for him/herself, so that when the time comes for employment, he/she already has a few prospectives lined up. One way to do this is to get your 0 hour bum into these companies looking to clean planes, help around, drive private jet owners, and show dedication to the company.

Let's not get into the debate on entitlement, I just have a tough time believing it's full. It was full, it's slowly recovering, and by the time this guy is work ready it'll be 2-3 years. If low timers were finding work during tough times, I don't see better times making it any more difficult. You might say then "Why are there an over abundance of pilots that are unemployed." While a lot of it has to do with supply and demand, I find that another part of the story is attached with how those pilot's carry themselves.

Ever since my CPL, it took me 2 years to find my first flying job. You think I wasn't down? Thinking about giving up? Or was jealous over idiots getting jobs while I was at home reviewing the FIG? You bet I was! But I didn't let that bitter note get to my hopes of finding a flying job. And if you know of a pilot who is simply an awesome dude, the best flier you've seen, and doesn't walk into a job interview with jeans? Chances are he or she will find something!

Don't get me wrong, it's SUPER tough to get that first job, so what you need to consider as a low timer entering the industry is whether you have the humble attitude that will set you apart from the college graduate who refuses to clean windshields prior to engine start? While sometimes true, I meant that more as a metaphor.


All the best to your flying endeavors.

[GTODD]

As for what courses to take you can get your PPL anywhere. Just go in to the school and talk to the instructors and make sure you feel comfortable at the place. If you want to fly floats a lot of your time building towards your CPL can be done on a float plane after you get your PPL.

I would also suggest you stay away from one of those college programs. I knew a couple people who did that and were “locked in” to finish their program which took longer because they were forced to take a bunch of arts and business courses unrelated to aviation while the industry was strong. When they were finally done things had slowed down and to this day they have been unable to find that first job. Meanwhile the guys who went to a traditional school were able to just concentrate on flying and do it at their own pace. This allowed them to finish early while the industry was still strong and there were lots of jobs still available.

From what you have said you seem very realistic so you will probably be ok in this industry. Lots of people get started in their late 20’s. It takes a long time to save up to be able to afford training and I am sure the people who will be interviewing you for your first job will understand that.

As you can see there is a lot of negativity on this site. There is no way to say what the industry will be like in a year or so when you finish your training. It is true that now some people with 1500 hours are being told they have to work the ramp before being promoted to a flying position. But just 2 years ago I knew a couple guys who got hired by small airlines with only 500 hours, and a few others who got float jobs with just 200 hours total time and 7 hours on floats. So as you can see a lot has changed and it will likely change again by the time you finish your training...most people are expecting it will change for the better, there is just no way to tell how long the industry will stay strong once it does finally improve. So just make sure you are in a position to make the most of any opportunities when they finally do become available.

[dirk82]

Thanks guys. I decided to go to the flight school instead of college program. It worked out better cause I can still work full time and save up alot more money so I have a bit of extra cash so I can take that first job and not have to worry to much on wage and just concentrate on getting my hours in. It seems that the industry is in a bit of a downer but that is ussually the best time to get in. If I can make it in the industry when its at its worse when it gets better life will be good. Thanks again guys, all the advice goes a long ways. I like talking to the guys in the industry, I get a better feel for what it is really like out there.

[KAG]

If you’re not lucky you need to be stubborn, and make your own luck. Don’t know anyone in the industry, put yourself out there and get to know them. You need to be willing you leave your home town, cause unless your born in Thompson MB, you need to go to the jobs, not the other way around.
You will not land that all important first/second job by sitting at home in southern wherever blindly firing off resumes. I can’t tell you how many pilots I’ve come across working major airports trying to get a job. A few do, and some take years to scrape a few hours together to make a resume look good. Most give up.

Those that are willing to move where most won’t go and do work that is “below” others while keeping a positive attitude will make a go of this industry. Those that don’t will post crap about aviation on sites like this.

That said, even with the right attitude, work ethic and connections; some will repeatedly get kicked in the balls for no other reason then the universe feels like it.
I hope I’m wearing a cup when it does.

[172PIC]

Thanks guys. I decided to go to the flight school instead of college program. It worked out better cause I can still work full time and save up alot more money so I have a bit of extra cash so I can take that first job and not have to worry to much on wage and just concentrate on getting my hours in. It seems that the industry is in a bit of a downer but that is ussually the best time to get in. If I can make it in the industry when its at its worse when it gets better life will be good. Thanks again guys, all the advice goes a long ways. I like talking to the guys in the industry, I get a better feel for what it is really like out there.

I'm the same age doing the same thing. Working full time and doing the flying at a local flight school. If you have the money though I would seriously consider looking at buying an old C150/152 or something and doing the training in that. At this point I wish I had myself. Instead of sinking money into rent and ending up with just time you'll have an asset too, plus your plane is always available (outside of maintenance). Even once you have the CPL and all that you can still build more PIC time in your own plane for relatively cheap.

[PunkStarStudios]

Dirk.... don't do it.
Unless you come from serious money where your grandfather can buy you your own twin and fly around for the hell of it to build time (don't laugh - I know someone who did).

If you were 18 and still 10 years away from getting married - I'd say go for it if you were prepared to live under your parents roof for a good spell.

If you just want to fly for fun - THAT is worth doing - I say run don't walk to your nearest flight school - but you're better off spending the $50k in getting all your ratings on lottery tickets than sink it into training in hopes of having anything resembling a career at the end of it.

And don't let anyone tell you difference - single engine pic time is not worth squat.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but too many people throw money at a dream with unrealistic expectations. Hey - if you are willing to sleep in a bunk bed for the next 15 years sharing a room with a few other starting pilots with no two nickles to rub together (but granted some hard work and good experience granted) - ok then - you know what you're in so consider yourself warned and good luck to you. But expecting a job with a CPL at the end is a fool's errand. There are always a few exceptions to the rule for a few lucky souls but my gawd... don't plan on being one of those whatever you do.

And yes - the industry is most definitely full.

I am 28 and looking to start my commercial training this fall, with so many schools and so many options out there I am wondering what courses and ratings are a must have to start a career in the industry. Are the college programs with the business admin degrees the way to go or is my money better spent on more hours and advanced training courses ie. the bush pilot 50 hour program. Also is being 28 a little late to get started, I know so many people get started right out of high school. I guess all I am looking for is any advice that would help me along my way.
thanks

[PunkStarStudios]

And to be clear - even a fresh instructor is by no means a guaranteed job. See this post for a bit of a reality check :

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=65990

[KAG]

Punk
Single engine PIC (even instructing) is most certainly worth something, too much of it (or anything light) though is only worth so much.

Dirk82 buying a plane is not a bad idea if you can get one at a reasonable price, train in it, then sell it for nearly what you paid for it. That said don't just rent one to log extra hours, it's a waste of time and money. You'd be better off sending that money on an instructor rating and getting paid to log hours, or a 50 hour float course that is rolled into your CPL.
The best situation is to finish flight training debt free, or nearly so.

Where are you looking to do your training? Is there any small aviation companies around that have single or 2 crew twins? Can you get that all important first job now before you even have a license and work there as you train, then when you’re finished your training, you've already worked the ramp. I know people that have done this, it works.

[PunkStarStudios]

Maybe for a float or instructor job - no airline is going to hire someone with no multi.

[KAG]

I'm not saying anything about multi time, I telling you everyone has to start somewhere.
Without a solid base of PIC time it's pretty hard to land a left seat in a multi Turbine - which opens all kinds of doors. There are many ways to get to the airlines, one of which is starting on a single piston PIC and working your way up, like myself and many of my peers.
I did 1000 single piston instructing, 500 multi multi instruction/charters, then on to King Airs with a 6 month upgrade to the left seat. I would not have gotten the left seat without the Multi PIC and my ATPL, I would not have gotten that without the 1000 single PIC.

[PunkStarStudios]

Point taken.

[KAG]

If Dirk82 can somehow work and pay off his training as he goes and finish with no debt, he will be 7-10 years ahead of where I was. Financial freedom will assist in making career choices that some may not be able to take.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If Dirk82 can somehow work and pay off his training as he goes and finish with no debt, he will be 7-10 years of where I was. Financial freedom will assist in making career choices that some may not be able to take.

+ 1

I waited untill I had the money in the bank before I took any training. This was good in two ways.

1) I got established in a non aviation career, so I had somethingto fall back on if aviation did not work out, and

2) I had no debt when I was ready to start looking for the first job, which sure makes it easier to live on the first job starvation wages.