Why I Lean Right of Centre

[flyinthebug]

...We may one day get the country back that our grandfathers envisioned. Bravo!

The one where blacks would never stop picking their Mastas cotton, never mind be president?

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" Unless they were black, Irish, native, chinese, etc. etc.

Niss, you are WAY off base here..even moreso then usual. I in no way suggested that we take steps backwards, nor did Mr. Hall. I suggested we have lost the vision of our grandfathers.. NOT our great x6 Grandfathers. I believe Mr. Hall suggested that he was VERY impressed to know a black child is doing their homework in the same room as the Emancipation Proclamation was written! He went on to say that he didnt think Obama was the best (1st choice) for a black man to become President, and that maybe Condi Rice would have been a better choice (as Obama didnt have the experience). Dont make this thread about race. I was moved to tears when Obama gave his acceptance speech, as were about 100+ mill more. This thread isnt about race, its about our freedoms being taken away from us. Its about how "tired" Mr. Hall is of being told whats PC and whats not. He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!. This isnt about black and white. I think Obama is doing a fairly good job all things considered. Its about losing the rights OUR grandfathers/fathers fought for. Give the race card a rest.

[niss]

...We may one day get the country back that our grandfathers envisioned. Bravo!

The one where blacks would never stop picking their Mastas cotton, never mind be president?

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free" Unless they were black, Irish, native, chinese, etc. etc.

Niss, you are WAY off base here..even moreso then usual. I in no way suggested that we take steps backwards, nor did Mr. Hall. I suggested we have lost the vision of our grandfathers.. NOT our great x6 Grandfathers. I believe Mr. Hall suggested that he was VERY impressed to know a black child is doing their homework in the same room as the Emancipation Proclamation was written! He went on to say that he didnt think Obama was the best (1st choice) for a black man to become President, and that maybe Condi Rice would have been a better choice (as Obama didnt have the experience). Dont make this thread about race. I was moved to tears when Obama gave his acceptance speech, as were about 100+ mill more. This thread isnt about race, its about our freedoms being taken away from us. Its about how "tired" Mr. Hall is of being told whats PC and whats not. He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!. This isnt about black and white. I think Obama is doing a fairly good job all things considered. Its about losing the rights OUR grandfathers/fathers fought for. Give the race card a rest.

I apologies, you did say Grandfathers and I was making a statement based on the wrong generation. My bad.

[Sulako]

He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!.

Being gay isn't any more or less cool than having thumbs or having freckles. Also, being gay has nothing to do with morality or values. It's not a choice, it's biological.

[Hedley]

I am tired of politically-correct racism and discrimination.

Just because some forms of bigotry are cool and fashionable, doesn't make them appealing - at least to me.

[SeptRepair]

He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!.

Being gay isn't any more or less cool than having thumbs or having freckles. Also, being gay has nothing to do with morality or values. It's not a choice, it's biological.

In your opinion.

[niss]

He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!.

Being gay isn't any more or less cool than having thumbs or having freckles. Also, being gay has nothing to do with morality or values. It's not a choice, it's biological.

In your opinion.

So your opinion is that people chose to be pariahs for a thousand years? To be executed, assaulted by police, and marginalized by society?

So I guess you just decided that all of the above was not worth it, and that is why you choose not to suck dick, but others out there figured the juice was worth the squeeze?

[SeptRepair]

Hey Niss, if your in favor of men sticking their dicks in other mens asses, then hey who am I to argue with your beliefs. I don't accept the practice of homosexuality as being of moral substance. Thats my opinion and yours is in favor of it. Nothing to debate here, now run along.

[Sulako]

He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!.

Being gay isn't any more or less cool than having thumbs or having freckles. Also, being gay has nothing to do with morality or values. It's not a choice, it's biological.

In your opinion.

The latest research shows it's not a choice.

From the APA (American Psychological Association):

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.


It's also inherently no less moral than straight sex:

From the American Psychiatric Association:

Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) calls on all international health organizations, psychiatric organizations, and individual psychiatrists in other countries to urge the repeal in their own countries of legislation that penalizes homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. Further, APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur.


What is immoral is bigotry and prejudice against people because of how they are wired, and who they love. Hey, you could always think of it this way - For every gay man, there's an extra single woman out there, waiting to get some.

[The Old Fogducker]

Sulako ... I heard a guest on a radio talkshow a few years ago make a compelling case that the APA (American Psychological Association) revised that material in response to a massive law suit statement of claim which never went to trial, not based upon "new findings."

OFD

[FlaplessDork]

The latest research shows it's not a choice.

From the APA (American Psychological Association):

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.


It's also inherently no less moral than straight sex:

From the American Psychiatric Association:

Whereas homosexuality per se implies no impairment in judgment, stability, reliability, or general social or vocational capabilities, the American Psychiatric Association (APA) calls on all international health organizations, psychiatric organizations, and individual psychiatrists in other countries to urge the repeal in their own countries of legislation that penalizes homosexual acts by consenting adults in private. Further, APA calls on these organizations and individuals to do all that is possible to decrease the stigma related to homosexuality wherever and whenever it may occur.


What is immoral is bigotry and prejudice against people because of how they are wired, and who they love. Hey, you could always think of it this way - For every gay man, there's an extra single woman out there, waiting to get some.

Where is the line drawn in terms of sexual preference? Proponents of bestiality, incest, and pedophilia claim their sexual preferences are natural and normal. They claim they are wired that way. Just because something occurs naturally in society, does not mean it is beneficial to society as a whole.

I find it interesting that homosexuals have to recruit to reproduce.

[niss]

Hey Niss, if your in favor of men sticking their dicks in other mens asses, then hey who am I to argue with your beliefs. I don't accept the practice of homosexuality as being of moral substance. Thats my opinion and yours is in favor of it. Nothing to debate here, now run along.

I am in favor of men sticking their dicks in whatever consents and of legal age to do so.

So you have weighed the pros and cons and rationally decided that giving a dude a beej is something you would rather not do?

It is a simple question, did you at some point in your life, sit down and objectively go over the arguments for why you should stick it in guys, and why you should stick it in girls and came to the decision that girls made more sense?

BTW, I want to have a kid one day and I am having a potential parenting dilemma.

Let's say I have a hypothetical son, and his hypothetical name is Steve. Now one day he hypothetically makes a conscious decision to be attracted to boys instead of girls. Is this hypothetical decision the same as if he hypothetically decided not to clean his room after I told him to?

What is the best way to punish the boy? Send him to the corner until he starts liking girls? Can I send him to bed without any supper? Can I beat the gay out of him?

I would think that if this was so simple as a decision like what to eat for dinner (tacos or sausages....wocka wocka wocka) there would be a whole lot of miserable closeted gays deciding to be straight, don't you agree?

[FlaplessDork]

Hey Niss, if your in favor of men sticking their dicks in other mens asses, then hey who am I to argue with your beliefs. I don't accept the practice of homosexuality as being of moral substance. Thats my opinion and yours is in favor of it. Nothing to debate here, now run along.

I am in favor of men sticking their dicks in whatever consents and of legal age to do so.

So you have weighed the pros and cons and rationally decided that giving a dude a beej is something you would rather not do?

It is a simple question, did you at some point in your life, sit down and objectively go over the arguments for why you should stick it in guys, and why you should stick it in girls and came to the decision that girls made more sense?

BTW, I want to have a kid one day and I am having a potential parenting dilemma.

Let's say I have a hypothetical son, and his hypothetical name is Steve. Now one day he hypothetically makes a conscious decision to be attracted to boys instead of girls. Is this hypothetical decision the same as if he hypothetically decided not to clean his room after I told him to?

What is the best way to punish the boy? Send him to the corner until he starts liking girls? Can I send him to bed without any supper? Can I beat the gay out of him?

I would think that if this was so simple as a decision like what to eat for dinner (tacos or sausages....wocka wocka wocka) there would be a whole lot of miserable closeted gays deciding to be straight, don't you agree?

What if your son grew up liking horses, or little girls?

[niss]

What if your son grew up liking horses, or little girls?

Try to get him the help he needs. Recognize that certain things fall outside of a persons control. Like I said, if he wants to stick his dick into anything that is old enough and capable to consent, then all the power.

[. ._]

You could always pray away the gay.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/o ... 08.article

[Expat]

Hey Niss, if your in favor of men sticking their dicks in other mens asses, then hey who am I to argue with your beliefs. I don't accept the practice of homosexuality as being of moral substance. Thats my opinion and yours is in favor of it. Nothing to debate here, now run along.

I am in favor of men sticking their dicks in whatever consents and of legal age to do so.

So you have weighed the pros and cons and rationally decided that giving a dude a beej is something you would rather not do?

It is a simple question, did you at some point in your life, sit down and objectively go over the arguments for why you should stick it in guys, and why you should stick it in girls and came to the decision that girls made more sense?

BTW, I want to have a kid one day and I am having a potential parenting dilemma.

Let's say I have a hypothetical son, and his hypothetical name is Steve. Now one day he hypothetically makes a conscious decision to be attracted to boys instead of girls. Is this hypothetical decision the same as if he hypothetically decided not to clean his room after I told him to?

What is the best way to punish the boy? Send him to the corner until he starts liking girls? Can I send him to bed without any supper? Can I beat the gay out of him?

I would think that if this was so simple as a decision like what to eat for dinner (tacos or sausages....wocka wocka wocka) there would be a whole lot of miserable closeted gays deciding to be straight, don't you agree?

What if your son grew up liking horses, or little girls?

...or little boys,...like in this country where our friends are dying, trying to protect against the Talibs, who oppose this very practise???

[flyinthebug]

He is tired of being told gay is cool, and watching HIS country fall apart due to a lack of simple morals and values. As am I!.

Being gay isn't any more or less cool than having thumbs or having freckles. Also, being gay has nothing to do with morality or values. It's not a choice, it's biological.

Firstly Niss, thanks for recognizing our miscommunication. No harm done. Cheers.

Sully...Isnt that just your "perception" of homosexuality? As yet, I dont believe they have isolated any particular gene that makes people gay have they? I understand and respect that the APA has come forward and supported the idea that homosexuality is a biologically determined "state" and the person has no choice in the matter. However, I am also within my rights to question where the APA is getting their information? By what means? Survey? Primary & Secondary research im sure. As yet though, I am still an "old school" believer that being gay is just wrong, period. Wasnt it treated as a mental illness by the most brilliant minds of the time (approx 120 yrs ago)? How did it go from a mental illness to an accepted part of society? Id hazard a guess that many that say its ok, are saying to someone else how outrageous those "gay pride people" are. I dont accept it as Biological, not 100% anyways. The biopsychosocial framework would tell us the outside influences have an effect on the outcome of people both straight and gay. Whether you are right or I am right, we both have to be intelligent enough to admit we could be wrong. My 2 cents.

[niss]

Firstly Niss, thanks for recognizing our miscommunication. No harm done. Cheers.

Wasnt it treated as a mental illness by the most brilliant minds of the time (approx 120 yrs ago)? How did it go from a mental illness to an accepted part of society?

It's progress. That long ago we were still lobotomizing people for mood swings, and prescribing ECT for anything they could think of.

Somewhere we realized that we cant punish people straight. Again, did anyone choose to be attracted to members of the opposite sex?

If sexual orientation is truly a choice then you should have no problem just giving guys a shot shouldn't you? The same thought that, you don't like brussle sprouts so you choose not to eat them? You could very well eat them but just not really enjoy it?

Do you choose to have sex with your wife over another man?

[Icebound]

[
Indeed. And on that subject, my favorite quote:

If you're young and right-wing, you have no heart. But if you're old and left-wing, you have no brains

I fully agree. The right wing DOES think exactly like pessismistic OLD people, ....paranoid, depressed, realizing that they have frittered their life away getting me-first rich but untimately unhappy. Looking under their beds for the next piece of evil that they are sure must be lurking there, just waiting to rid them of their wealth.

The young look to the future optimistically. They may ultimately be successful or not, but Bravo! to them for trying to change the world to help their fellow humans and future generations.


...

[Morav]

I dont believe they have isolated any particular gene that makes people gay have they?

There are a few disorders such as Parkinson's that are caused by individual dysfunctional genes. For the most part, the 35 000 genes in your DNA are not enough to produce the complexities that make you. They have to work collectively, sort of in alliance with each other. Determining how and why is an extremely difficult task in which scientists are tackling with today.

How did it go from a mental illness to an accepted part of society?

Why can't I own a slave anymore? GOD! I miss the good ol' days *sigh*

[FlaplessDork]

A question I've always wondered. Do gay guys develop a lispe naturally?

[Siddley Hawker]

The young look to the future optimistically. They may ultimately be successful or not, but Bravo! to them for trying to change the world to help their fellow humans and future generations.

Yeah, just like we did in the 1960's.

[Hedley]

Do you choose to have sex with your wife over another man?

I didn't know your wife was into threesomes, Niss!

[mcrit]

Do you choose to have sex with your wife over another man?

I didn't know your wife was into threesomes, Niss!

That's one picture of Niss that I'd rather not see............

This thread reminds me of a joke. Young gay man goes home one weekend with the intention of coming out to his folks. He sits is mom down and, rather hesitantly says, "Mom, I'm gay". The mom sits there for a moment, looking thoughtful and then says, "So that means that you put mens' penises in your mouth, right?". The young man is a bit shocked by this, and stammers, "Y....Y....Yes". The mom replies, "Well then, don't you EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT MY COOKING AGAIN!"

[Dash-Ate]

'Seven Reasons Why We Can’t Stop Making War'

By William J. Astore

June 08, 2010 "TomDispatch" -- If one quality characterizes our wars today, it's their endurance. They never seem to end. Though war itself may not be an American inevitability, these days many factors combine to make constant war an American near certainty. Put metaphorically, our nation's pursuit of war taps so many wellsprings of our behavior that a concerted effort to cap it would dwarf BP's efforts in the Gulf of Mexico.

Our political leaders, the media, and the military interpret enduring war as a measure of our national fitness, our global power, our grit in the face of eternal danger, and our seriousness. A desire to de-escalate and withdraw, on the other hand, is invariably seen as cut-and-run appeasement and discounted as weakness. Withdrawal options are, in a pet phrase of Washington elites, invariably "off the table" when global policy is at stake, as was true during the Obama administration's full-scale reconsideration of the Afghan war in the fall of 2009. Viewed in this light, the president's ultimate decision to surge in Afghanistan was not only predictable, but the only course considered suitable for an American war leader. Rather than the tough choice, it was the path of least resistance.

Why do our elites so readily and regularly give war, not peace, a chance? What exactly are the wellsprings of Washington's (and America's) behavior when it comes to war and preparations for more of the same?

Consider these seven:

1. We wage war because we think we're good at it -- and because, at a gut level, we've come to believe that American wars can bring good to others (hence our feel-good names for them, like Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom). Most Americans are not only convinced we have the best troops, the best training, and the most advanced weapons, but also the purest motives. Unlike the bad guys and the barbarians out there in the global marketplace of death, our warriors and warfighters are seen as gift-givers and freedom-bringers, not as death-dealers and resource-exploiters. Our illusions about the military we "support" serve as catalyst for, and apology for, the persistent war-making we condone.

2. We wage war because we've already devoted so many of our resources to it. It's what we're most prepared to do. More than half of discretionary federal spending goes to fund our military and its war making or war preparations. The military-industrial complex is a well-oiled, extremely profitable machine and the armed forces, our favorite child, the one we've lavished the most resources and praise upon. It's natural to give your favorite child free rein.

3. We've managed to isolate war's physical and emotional costs, leaving them on the shoulders of a tiny minority of Americans. By eliminating the draft and relying ever more on for-profit private military contractors, we've made war a distant abstraction for most Americans, who can choose to consume it as spectacle or simply tune it out as so much background noise.

4. While war and its costs have, to date, been kept at arm's length, American society has been militarizing fast. Our media outlets, intelligence agencies, politicians, foreign policy establishment, and "homeland security" bureaucracy are so intertwined with military priorities and agendas as to be inseparable from them. In militarized America, griping about soft-hearted tactics or the outspokenness of a certain general may be tolerated, but forceful criticism of our military or our wars is still treated as deviant and "un-American."

5. Our profligate, high-tech approach to war, including those Predator and Reaper drones armed with Hellfire missiles, has served to limit American casualties -- and so has limited the anger over, and harsh questioning of, our wars that might go with them. While the U.S. has had more than 1,000 troops killed in Afghanistan, over a similar period in Vietnam we lost more than 58,000 troops. Improved medical evacuation and trauma care, greater reliance on standoff precision weaponry and similar "force multipliers," stronger emphasis on "force protection" within American military units: all these and more have helped tamp down concern about the immeasurable and soaring costs of our wars.

6. As we incessantly develop those force-multiplying weapons to give us our "edge" (though never an edge that leads to victory), it's hardly surprising that the U.S. has come to dominate, if not quite monopolize, the global arms trade. In these years, as American jobs were outsourced or simply disappeared in the Great Recession, armaments have been one of our few growth industries. Endless war has proven endlessly profitable -- not perhaps for all of us, but certainly for those in the business of war.

7. And don't forget the seductive power of beyond-worse-case, doomsday scenarios, of the prophecies of pundits and so-called experts, who regularly tell us that, bad as our wars may be, doing anything to end them would be far worse. A typical scenario goes like this: If we withdraw from Afghanistan, the government of Hamid Karzai will collapse, the Taliban will surge to victory, al-Qaeda will pour into Afghan safe havens, and Pakistan will be further destabilized, its atomic bombs falling into the hands of terrorists out to destroy Peoria and Orlando.

Such fevered nightmares, impossible to disprove, may be conjured at any moment to scare critics into silence. They are a convenient bogeyman, leaving us cowering as we send our superman military out to save us (and the world as well), while preserving our right to visit the mall and travel to Disney World without being nuked.

The truth is that no one really knows what would happen if the U.S. disengaged from Afghanistan. But we do know what's happening now, with us fully engaged: we're pursuing a war that's costing us nearly $7 billion a month that we're not winning (and that's arguably unwinnable), a war that may be increasing the chances of another 9/11, rather than decreasing them.

Capping the Wellsprings of War

Each one of these seven wellsprings feeding our enduring wars must be capped. So here are seven suggestions for the sort of "caps" -- hopefully more effective than BP's flailing improvisations -- we need to install:

1. Let's reject the idea that war is either admirable or good -- and in the process, remind ourselves that others often see us as "the foreign fighters" and profligate war consumers who kill innocents (despite our efforts to apply deadly force in surgically precise ways reflecting "courageous restraint").

2. Let's cut defense spending now, and reduce the global "mission" that goes with it. Set a reasonable goal -- a 6-8% reduction annually for the next 10 years, until levels of defense spending are at least back to where they were before 9/11 -- and then stick to it.

3. Let's stop privatizing war. Creating ever more profitable incentives for war was always a ludicrous idea. It's time to make war a non-profit, last-resort activity. And let's revive national service (including elective military service) for all young adults. What we need is a revived civilian conservation corps, not a new civilian "expeditionary" force.

4. Let's reverse the militarization of so many dimensions of our society. To cite one example, it's time to empower truly independent (non-embedded) journalists to cover our wars, and stop relying on retired generals and admirals who led our previous wars to be our media guides. Men who are beholden to their former service branch or the current defense contractor who employs them can hardly be trusted to be critical and unbiased guides to future conflicts.

5. Let's recognize that expensive high-tech weapons systems are not war-winners. They've kept us in the game without yielding decisive results -- unless you measure "results" in terms of cost overruns and burgeoning federal budget deficits.

6. Let's retool our economy and reinvest our money, moving it out of the military-industrial complex and into strengthening our anemic system of mass transit, our crumbling infrastructure, and alternative energy technology. We need high-speed rail, safer roads and bridges, and more wind turbines, not more overpriced jet fighters.

7. Finally, let's banish nightmare scenarios from our minds. The world is scary enough without forever imagining smoking guns morphing into mushroom clouds.

There you have it: my seven "caps" to contain our gushing support for permanent war. No one said it would be easy. Just ask BP how easy it is to cap one out-of-control gusher.

Nonetheless, if we as a society aren't willing to work hard for actual change -- indeed, to demand it -- we'll be on that military escalatory curve until we implode. And that way madness lies.

William J. Astore is a retired lieutenant colonel (USAF) and TomDispatch regular. He has taught at the Air Force Academy and the Naval Postgraduate School and currently teaches History at the Pennsylvania College of Technology. He may be reached at wjastore@gmail.com.

Copyright 2010 William J. Astore

[The Old Fogducker]

Thats one of your few posts that didn't mention all members of western hemisphere armed forces as being racists who are only there to kill brown-skinned people Dash ... thank the good Lord for small mercies.

OFD