Snowbird report out

rigpiggy · Post by **rigpiggy** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:06 am

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/saskatchewan/s ... crash.html

Some interesting notes in the comments, hedley, auxbaton your thoughts.

Meatservo · Post by **Meatservo** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:19 am

Low-level awareness training. That should fix things up.

Maybe throw in some orange reflective vests too, just to make it all look safer.

AuxBatOn · Post by **AuxBatOn** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:04 am

Low Level Awareness Training (LLAT for short) is a yearly currency that the FF pilots need to keep. It's actually a flight during which we do LLAT manoeuvres. It gets you re-caged in the low level and refresh your mind on what to do/what not to do. It may sound obvious to you, but when you are flying a 2+ ship low level, you have to divide you attention to more than no hitting the ground. And if you focus your attention for more than a few seconds (5 seconds), you will dramatically increase your chances of thundering in and not even knowing it. So yes, LLAT is a very good recommendations for photo-chase pilots.

mag check · Post by **mag check** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:28 am

Why is it that a Snowbird pilot didn't have LLAT? I would think that should be mandatory.

Truckpilot · Post by **Truckpilot** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:16 am

mag check wrote:Why is it that a Snowbird pilot didn't have LLAT? I would think that should be mandatory.

Not certain of present policy, but hanging on the wing during the various maneuvers typically does not require LLAT since the wingmen are not looking at anything other than the references from the lead aircraft.
Case in point, many years ago when the USAF Thunderbirds lost the majority of the team when lead flew into the ground along with the guys on his wing. Attention must be 100% on lead or whoever you're flying close to, at wingtip clearance, or closer, it doesn't take much distraction to have metal to metal contact.

linecrew · Post by **linecrew** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:50 am

The DND page concerning the accident including links to the official investigation:

http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/dfs-ds ... p?id=10065

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:09 pm

From the military report:

he had no experience flying photo-chase missions, had no experience in fluid manoeuvring around a formation at low altitude and had not received any formal low-level awareness training.

Just another accident due to insufficient training/oversight by the military.

SAR_YQQ · Post by **SAR_YQQ** » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:56 pm

mag check wrote:Why is it that a Snowbird pilot didn't have LLAT?

He wasn't a Snowbird demo pilot.

TG · Post by TG » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:32 pm

He was going to be Snowbird demo pilot the following year according to the article and at.... 47

I am curious to know what is the age limit ?

Truckpilot · Post by **Truckpilot** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:44 am

TG wrote:He was going to be Snowbird demo pilot the following year according to the article and at.... 47
I am curious to know what is the age limit ?

...what age limit...?

SAR_YQQ · Post by **SAR_YQQ** » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:10 am

If you can maintain your particular Category medical - you can fly up to your 60's.

Moose47 · Post by **Moose47** » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:14 pm

<<<Donald
Post subject: Re: Snowbird report out
PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:09 pm
Offline
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:34 pm
Posts: 1296
Location: Canada
From the military report:

Quote:
he had no experience flying photo-chase missions, had no experience in fluid manoeuvring around a formation at low altitude and had not received any formal low-level awareness training. Just another accident due to insufficient training/oversight by the military. <<<

And you know this because you spent how many years in the CF as a pilot?????????

Donald · Post by **Donald** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:56 pm

How many years in the CF do I require to be able to read and comprehend their accident reports?

Do I require time in every make and model of aircraft, work at every airline in existence, fly to every airport in the world, to form an opinion (after considering official information released after thorough investigations)?

zed · Post by **zed** » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:41 pm

Just a couple thoughts...

While the snowbirds are overwhelmingly from the fighter community, that is no longer necessarily the case. Especially since pretty much everyone going into the snowbirds have never flown the CT114 Tutor until they join. Fighter folks still have advantage however, since they do practice a lot of the skills as part of their normal routine. But selection is open to all CF pilots. At least that is my understanding.

Second, unless something has changed in the last few years, LLAT for the Cdn fighter community was cut from their annual qualification requirements. But I will happily stand to be corrected on this one here. Budget/hour savings, a lot of complaining when that came down. If memory serves me right that would be in the late-90s/early 2000s when their hours were reduced to 180/year. Still many fly more then this, but then some don't. And some positions have the hours, but are very hard pressed to do any flying. Not sure what their current state of hours is now, wouldn't be surprised if they have improved the situation since that time they have reduced their force size down to two 'super' squadrons from the previous four.

They may get some LL awareness training, but nothing approaching the full LLAT that was being conducted back in the day (80's/90's). It was the most affordable lump of hours they thought they could lose, and still maintain their multi-role capability.