Quick response needed about multi checkride (tmrw morning!)

[DanWEC]

Just a quick question regarding the multi engine flight test guide.

My instructor at Buttonville teaches that when the examiner fails an engine during a turn, the immediate corrective measure should be to stop the turn, go straight and level (control) then power drag identify verify feather.

However in the flight test guide it states that "if the failure occurs in a turn, the candidate is expected, with minimal pause, to continue the turn towards the assigned heading"

Which is correct and which will hand me a 0 on the action?? My ride is in the morning....

[AOW]

Well, neither will hand you a zero, since 1 is the lowest possible mark on a flight test item.

Go with the flight test guide... It probably knows more than your instructor does (at least wrt multi engine flight tests)!

Good luck!

[DanWEC]

I suppose I am allowed to ask the examiner....all exercises are supposed to be clear. Guide states- when in doubt, ask!

[RVR6000]

The flight test guide is correct, you continue the turn to an assign heading. Example would be engine failure on an ILS while turning to intercept, you continue the turn. The examiner did that on my multi-ifr ride.

[iflyforpie]

I think you would only need to continue the turn if the circumstances required it (ie, following a SID, STAR, or approach, in a hold, being vectored in IMC, terrain avoidance, etc). You have to keep it together because once you've secured the engine, you still need to be in protected airspace and get the bird on the ground.

[The Old Fogducker]

Dan:

Ask the Check Pilot about the difference during the prefight briefing .... far better to work it out before hand than during the debrief.

Any Check Pilot worth his salt will be happy to describe what is required by the standard.

Be sure to tell us how the ride went.

And ... go out and hit the ball out of the park!

OFD

[ETOPS]

Confirm with the examiner.
My guess is he'll want you to keep the turn going.

For whats its worth I did my multi ride about 2 months ago. I kept the turn going and got a 4.

[cdnpilot77]

Dan,

Above are correct. I asked the examiner the exact same question prior to my MIFR ride. Essentially they want to see that you are able to control the aircraft and maintain tollerance on a specific approach or procedure while securing the engine and flying on one.

CP77

[DanWEC]

Woohoo! Passed!
No engine failure during a turn. The examiner said that you would continue the turn if the scenario would happen.

[metal]

Congrats

[ETOPS]

Congrats!

It was a great day for aircraft performance.
Just out of curiosity, were you flying a Seminole?

[2R]

Your instructor was teaching you the correct,safe best practice for a light twin engined airplane.
If you find yourself in a turn , and you get an engine failure it may roll on its back if you do not stop any rolling motion into the turn and fly the airplane.
Any turns should be done into the GOOD engine or you may crash,even if you make it to 500 feet on a climb out .Zig when you should zag and it is all over.
Always be preparred to sacrifice altitude to maintain a controllable airplane ,and if it looks like the good engine is taking you to the scene of the crash.Make sure any off airport landing is done with the least amount of energy.As most light twins will glide quite nicely with both engines shut down and land well below red line,reducing side impact g-loading on the body making survivabilty more likely.The impact of landing a light twin at 1.1 vso is much more likely to be survivable than attempting to land off airport just above red line Vyse.
Landing with the ball centered will reduce pilot and pax damage in just about any twin except a DC3 ,one DC3 guy told me you wanted to dig a wing in to prevent the load in the back coming through the cockpit.The aim was to get the load out the side.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Your instructor was teaching you the correct,safe best practice for a light twin engined airplane.
If you find yourself in a turn , and you get an engine failure it may roll on its back if you do not stop any rolling motion into the turn and fly the airplane.
Any turns should be done into the GOOD engine or you may crash,even if you make it to 500 feet on a climb out .Zig when you should zag and it is all over.
Always be preparred to sacrifice altitude to maintain a controllable airplane ,and if it looks like the good engine is taking you to the scene of the crash.Make sure any off airport landing is done with the least amount of energy.As most light twins will glide quite nicely with both engines shut down and land well below red line,reducing side impact g-loading on the body making survivabilty more likely.The impact of landing a light twin at 1.1 vso is much more likely to be survivable than attempting to land off airport just above red line Vyse.
Landing with the ball centered will reduce pilot and pax damage in just about any twin except a DC3 ,one DC3 guy told me you wanted to dig a wing in to prevent the load in the back coming through the cockpit.The aim was to get the load out the side.

I am afraid I have a problem with what you are saying. "Never" turn into the read engine is another one "rule" fits every situation FTUism that needs to get stamped out. There is no signficant problem with turning into the dead engine if the speed is blue line or preferably better and only moderate bank angles are used. Obviously all things being equal a turn out of a dead engine is preferable but if you have to turn into the dead engine to avoid the hill or intercept the localizer you keep control of the airplane and make it do what you need it to do. As for the idea of prefering a turning crash in DC3 well I definetly call BS on that.

[2R]

I like to think that the FTUisms that many sky gods laugh at are "what" tired uncurrent pilots can use to keep themselves alive.
There are some pilots who could recognize the rapid performance degradation that the additional drag an aircraft gets when an engine fails.The performance does not go down 50 percent but 80 percent or more ! Sometimes shit happens real fast in a plane.
There are even some pilots who can recognize the performance degradation of the aircraft when in icing .
You are right BPF ,there are times when it is perfectly safe to turn into a dead engine.I just will not attempt it, as if it slows down with the extra drag of the turn the danger of a very rapid roll rate turning the aircraft on its back has been demonstrated by better pilots than me who did not live to tell the tale.I watched a Duke pilot do a hundred foot circuit around KMAC rather than attempt a climb and risk rolling over.He made all the turns into the good engine and lived to play golf again.He was one of . Jeagers pals.
The roll rate of some twins single engine BELOW RED LINE is 90 degrees per second and as quick as i am i am not that quick .Although if it did start to roll that quick i might let it roll right over and cut the good engine back when inverted in an attempt to stop the roll wings level as most barrel rolls take about five hundred feet in a small twin.
I heard the DC3 strategem from a guy that was flying constuction material up the dew line and like most strategems are not for the average beige pilot to attempt

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are some pilots who could recognize the rapid performance degradation that the additional drag an aircraft gets when an engine fails.The performance does not go down 50 percent but 80 percent or more ! Sometimes shit happens real fast in a plane.
There are even some pilots who can recognize the performance degradation of the aircraft when in icing .
You are right BPF ,there are times when it is perfectly safe to turn into a dead engine.I just will not attempt it, as if it slows down with the extra drag of the turn the danger of a very rapid roll rate turning the aircraft on its back has been demonstrated by better pilots than me who did not live to tell the tale.I watched a Duke pilot do a hundred foot circuit around KMAC rather than attempt a climb and risk rolling over.He made all the turns into the good engine and lived to play golf again.He was one of . Jeagers pals.
The roll rate of some twins single engine BELOW RED LINE is 90 degrees per second and as quick as i am i am not that quick .Although if it did start to roll that quick i might let it roll right over and cut the good engine back when inverted in an attempt to stop the roll wings level as most barrel rolls take about five hundred feet in a small twin.
I heard the DC3 strategem from a I like to think that the FTUisms that many sky gods laugh at are "what" tired uncurrent pilots can use to keep themselves alive.
guy that was flying constuction material up the dew line and like most strategems are not for the average beige pilot to attempt

If you let the airspeed decay below redline you are probably going to die regardless of which way you turn. My point is not that "skygods" (and I certainly do not consider myself one of those) can turn into the dead engine but mere mortals will not be able to handle it, it is I hate it when FTU's say "never" do an action, especially for advanced training. The factors affecting turning in both directions should be well understood and experience in controlling aircraft (in a safe environment) should be practiced for all potential manoevering situations. When I teach the multi course I always include a few turns into the dead engine, so that if a student were ever in situation where a turn away from the dead engine is not an option, they will be prepared. The FTU mantra "never turn into a dead engine" implies this manoever is always dangerous which simply is not true.

[Lurch]

The roll rate of some twins single engine BELOW RED LINE is 90 degrees per second and as quick as i am i am not that quick .Although if it did start to roll that quick i might let it roll right over and cut the good engine back when inverted in an attempt to stop the roll wings level as most barrel rolls take about five hundred feet in a small twin.

Forgive the arrogance, but I was taught to never go below blue line when single engine, Why on earth would be you at or below red line? Every twin I've ever flown you didn't even have to rotate below red line (not that you couldn't in some of them).

Lurch

[Hedley]

Not sure what all the fuss is about.

If you have lots of airspeed, you have lots of mass of air moving over the rudder, and you can safely turn into the dead engine.

If you are marginal on airspeed, you don't have as much air moving over the rudder, and a turn into the dead engine must be done very carefully, with your hand on the good throttle, ready to pull it back and nose down if need be. This obviously isn't the smartest thing to do at low altitude.

I didn't think this was really that complicated. Less rudder authority at slow speed.

[Strega]

Dont know if most people here know this or not...

Most light twins that are NA dont have a redline above about 5000'..

For the "never below blue line" comment. There are twin engined aircraft that have "book approach speeds" below redline.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Dont know if most people here know this or not...

Most light twins that are NA dont have a redline above about 5000'..

For the "never below blue line" comment. There are twin engined aircraft that have "book approach speeds" below redline.

There are no light twins that have a POH recommended approach speed below redline (Vmc).

[square]

Anyone saying they don't make turns into the good engine obviously doesn't fly IFR. You don't get to choose which way you're turning when youre doing a GPS approach or a procedure turn or a missed approach. You fly the published routing. So if you or your airplane are not equipped to turn left and right on one engine, that's a problem. Staying above blueline is nice when you can do it but it is also not required. Climbouts at V2 and Ref speeds all normally fall below blueline.

[Strega]

There are no light twins that have a POH recommended approach speed below redline (Vmc).

Wanna make a bet?

[Big Pistons Forever]

There are no light twins that have a POH recommended approach speed below redline (Vmc).

Wanna make a bet?

I honestly thought that no light twin had a POH recommended approach speed below redline. If I was mistaken then how about listing the aircraft(s) types rather than playing games.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Anyone saying they don't make turns into the good engine obviously doesn't fly IFR. You don't get to choose which way you're turning when youre doing a GPS approach or a procedure turn or a missed approach. You fly the published routing. So if you or your airplane are not equipped to turn left and right on one engine, that's a problem. Staying above blueline is nice when you can do it but it is also not required. Climbouts at V2 and Ref speeds all normally fall below blueline.

I have started a bit of thread creap so first off DanWEC, congratulations on passing your ride. I think your question re turning during single enginr flight has been answered

With respect to managing speed I teach my students to attain and maintain blueline (Vyse) speed after liftoff to 500ft AGL and then transistion to a normal climb speed for forward visibilty and engine cooling considerations. Light twins in general cannot accelerate in level flight from a speed below blue line to blue line and will not in general climb at all with a speed significantly below blue line. Therefore I feel it is essential to be at or above blue line speed as soon as possible after takeoff. For landing I teach my students to hold blue line untill short final and landing is assured and then deaccelerate to ref speed.

[chinglish]

Which red line are we talking about? Personally I feel quite comfortable flying a piston twin on one engine bellow VNE

[iflyforpie]

Which red line are we talking about? Personally I feel quite comfortable flying a piston twin on one engine bellow VNE

I am not sure if some old twins may be grandfathered, but current certification standards say Vmc must be no higher than 1.2 Vs1. So unless the flaps and gear make Vs0 lower by a very large amount, you wouldn't need to approach below redline.

Also, remember that Vmc is a non issue without power.

Some of the 'unofficial' single engine drills on multi aircraft with fixed pitch props (there's been a few) was to close both throttles and slow the aircraft below Vmc (probably wasn't called that back then) until the dead engine stopped windmilling. Then accelerate and put the coals to the other engine so you could actually maintain level flight.