Fellow chief pilots, DFO's and HR people

[. ._]

It doesn't take much time to hit reply and type:

P F O

-istp

[industrypolice]

Who cares...what baffles me is why you pilots accept being treated like slaves and work for nothing. Its not the fault of HR or the industry, its the pilots who allow companies to treat them like trash because they will accpet any pay and any type of living condition and hours because of thier undying passion for flying. Only until you guys have some own self respect will people treat you with respect. So stop whining and complaining and tell the industry to kiss your ass. A person working at Taco Bell makes more than a regional pilot.

[flyinthebug]

Who cares...what baffles me is why you pilots accept being treated like slaves and work for nothing. Its not the fault of HR or the industry, its the pilots who allow companies to treat them like trash because they will accpet any pay and any type of living condition and hours because of thier undying passion for flying. Only until you guys have some own self respect will people treat you with respect. So stop whining and complaining and tell the industry to kiss your ass. A person working at Taco Bell makes more than a regional pilot.

Your 3rd post and already you are whining about a flight school in another thread doing you wrong, and then you tell everyone else to STOP whining? Give your head a shake. The message you are trying to send has been sent for decades and yet somehow, the operators still get guys and gals to work for slave wages. The old guys want you to believe we all walked into a 100K a yr job `back in the day`but my retired old Uncle assures me it was feast or famine in his day as well (1961-2004 AC). He swept floors for AC for almost 2 yrs before he got his right seat on the Electra.

This thread was about HR depts having time to respond to all emails and faxes people send. That is logistically impossible. Have you ever worked for an op with say 10 planes and 25 employees?. It leaves little time for us to reply to every fax or email CV we receive. In a small op such as this one, the CP is also the training Capt. He or she flys 13 hours a day then is expected to keep up on ALL paper work, address staff issues, confer with maintenance, liase with TC and then do an hour on the sim with the "weak" Captain because hes a friend of yours and needs some extra help with the sim.. Now once all thats done, then sit down and reply to 17 CV`s that you did NOT advertise for.. Truly, are you starting to see the picture im painting here? Some of you suggest delegating it to the girl in the office. Thats great but she wears about 8 hats in the operation like the rest of us. She is Office administration, Office manager, payroll clerk, accounts payable and rec clerk, charter booking agent, receptionist, and confidant to the young crew...and ya your right, shes got time to reply to UNsolicited emails and faxes. If this is the next generation of management in our industry, that expects PFO letters from every employer..wow, are we in deeper trouble then even *I* believed. Sorry to break it to you, but we DONT have time to reply to all CV`s..even though we would like to, its logistically impossible. Its not that we do not WANT to and SOME ops actually do send out PFO letters to most if not all received CV`s. (Green Airways CYRL & TWA Sask are both examples of companies that send PFO letters to almost everyone) beyond them, I dont know any on the 703 or 704 level. There just isnt enough time in the day.

[The Old Fogducker]

FTB:

I'm surprised nobody has suggested that another staff member should be added to send out the PFO letters and protect the feelings of applicants, and thereby indicate they are totally clueless about the operating economics of a small 703.

The Old (tightfisted) Fogducker

[Panama Jack]

Back in the "good old days" when I was in the category you describe and it was usual for Canada Post to be involved in the process of sending resumes and "carpet bombing", tightwads like The Old Fogducker didn't send replies either.

Because I wanted to ensure that my application had been received and for my own records, I would enclose a self-addressed, stamped post card to myself with the wording something like: "Resume received by Air Fogducker (International) Ltd. on ________ (date)."

Most of the post cards were returned to me and some even with a few helpful words written by the chief pilot. It is a little way of distinguishing your resume from the mass mail junk (and lets face it, your resume to them is like the catalogs and commercial mailings you get at home). It gave me peace of mind and some closure knowing that at least my resume had arrived and was resting on the bottom of some deep dark filing cabinet somewhere. Obviously, cost me the stamp, but that kept me focused on who I was applying to rather than just blindly mass mailing.

However, it is a valid point and in today's computer world of copy and paste, it doesn't take much to give a standardized reply of acknowledgement and thanks.

Along the same lines, it galls me when at my company, I might take 20 minutes out of my day off to write a suggestion to help the company and I don't even get a quick:

Dear Panama Jack,

Thanks for taking the time to write with your suggestion. We appreciate your input as an employee. Keep up the good work.

Sincerely,
Der Führer

Folks, even though I get paid to do my job, the "thank you" is still very much valued!

[I'm just one]

It is interesting how our society has changed. Most of us have had an upbringing better than our parents, more material items available to us, money to pursue an education whether it was university, college or aviation.
It seems to me that the one thing that hasn't progressed (actually regressed) is the concept that when we make decisions albeit family, recreation, career etc, we also line ourselves up for the consequences - positive or negative.
If I graduated out of the education field, medicine, accounting or aviation then started complaining about wages, lack of work or people not responding to my application solicited or not . . .I would have been told to stop whining, that I made choice, now live with it or find some way to make it work. Complaining and pointing fingers wouldn’t have been an option and still shouldn't be.
I am the owner/operator of a 703 operation. I feel bad for the pilots out there looking for work, or working for operators who take advantage of circumstances. My pilots take home more pay than I do . . . . that is just what finances dictate. I’m not complaining, it was my decision to get into aviation (although my vision wasn’t really accurate).
I answer 90% of emailed resumes, none of the faxed or mailed ones. . . .no time for those. Email is quick. Also, when I hire all info is placed on the table, comments welcome. But won’t hire a whiner!
If you are wanting to pilot my aircraft, with my customers on board, I require maturity and professionalism.
I look forward to see what this generation teaches their children about responsibility, consequences and finger pointing.

Fly safe,
I’m just one.

[Bede]

Maybe some of you guys who think they're too busy to reply should check out the WestJet forum. There's a guy on there with the handle dpobran. He's a CP at WJA (used to be head of pilot recruitment). He goes on this forum and answers all sorts of questions. If he has time to do this,...

[flyinthebug]

Maybe some of you guys who think they're too busy to reply should check out the WestJet forum. There's a guy on there with the handle dpobran. He's a CP at WJA (used to be head of pilot recruitment). He goes on this forum and answers all sorts of questions. If he has time to do this,...

How could you possibly compare WJA with a small 703 op? The schedules are so completely different that the two are uncomparable. WJA CP= maybe 14 days on a month.. 17 days on the extreme. If he is also a CCP, then his job is even more "cushy"...

CP at 703= 7 days a week usually...anywhere from 10-13 hours in the pit and then another 4 hours for paperwork..and you havent trained anyone yet, or did any rides yet..or liase with TC yet etc etc

The WJA CP has several dozen people he can delegate his work to..a CP at a 703 does not have that luxury. The idea of making it to the CP position at WJA is to REDUCE workload and increase responsibility level. To try to compare a major`s CP to a small 703 CP is ridiculous. Sorry bede your way off on this one.

Maybe OFD is right and we should hire someone to protect the feelings of all those pilots that contact us (unsolicited) and ensure we send them all PFO letters. You would do well in business bede.

[Bede]

I used to do hiring for a small company. I ALWAYS took the time to talk to guys trying to get a job with us when they called. When they visited, I'd show them around. If that meant I'd spend an extra hour doing CP duties (paperwork, trg, etc) after my flying was done for the day, then so be it.

When I started flying, there were a few guys that took the time to at least give me some advice, even if they didn't hire me (Bill Hesse at NT Air was one). Now that I've been at this for a few years, I try to do the same for younger pilots. One thing I have found is that the companies with CP's that will actually treat low timers with some respect are the same one's that are continually in operation. Perhaps it's just the corporate attitude. Loser CP's and crap companies go hand in hand.

BTW, flyinbug, CP's at large airlines work a lot more than 14 days a month. It's usually around 22+ on call

[Meatservo]

I just want to say, has anyone noticed how funny Panama Jack's post was? I've said it before, I approve of almost anything that guy writes. Also, the self-addressed card is/was a great idea. Too bad no-one uses "mail" anymore.

[flyinthebug]

I used to do hiring for a small company. I ALWAYS took the time to talk to guys trying to get a job with us when they called. When they visited, I'd show them around. If that meant I'd spend an extra hour doing CP duties (paperwork, trg, etc) after my flying was done for the day, then so be it.

When I started flying, there were a few guys that took the time to at least give me some advice, even if they didn't hire me (Bill Hesse at NT Air was one). Now that I've been at this for a few years, I try to do the same for younger pilots. One thing I have found is that the companies with CP's that will actually treat low timers with some respect are the same one's that are continually in operation. Perhaps it's just the corporate attitude. Loser CP's and crap companies go hand in hand.

BTW, flyinbug, CP's at large airlines work a lot more than 14 days a month. It's usually around 22+ on call

I always took the time to shake the hand of a young pilot that took the time to visit us with his/her resume. Even if we werent hiring, I always took the time. Its the UNSOLICITED emails and faxed resumes that I was referring to. If you have the time to reply to all those emails and faxes then more power to you. For me, it wasnt logistically possible. I was too busy flying or training or both. And as an FYI to you Bede, the company I am speaking of is going on its 39th year in business. It was 34 when I left and still going strong. So much for your loser CP theory...isnt your company still in business? Pfft

[Eastside]

Its a tough nut to crack, but there are also some class acts out there.

[JTrain]

he old guys want you to believe we all walked into a 100K a yr job `back in the day`but my retired old Uncle assures me it was feast or famine in his day as well (1961-2004 AC). He swept floors for AC for almost 2 yrs before he got his right seat on the Electra.

Something about that doesn't compute. Nobody has a 43 yr pilot career with AC.

And even if he had to sweep floors for two years before getting to the Electra FO seat, at least he was doing it at AC.

Now, the 250 hr wonders have to go all over the northern hinterlands for dock/ramp jobs just to hopefully get an FO job in two years. If they are lucky, that job will put them in a position that in a couple years, they can apply to a Tier 3 carrier so that maybe in a decade they'll be competitive with AC.

[flyinthebug]

he old guys want you to believe we all walked into a 100K a yr job `back in the day`but my retired old Uncle assures me it was feast or famine in his day as well (1961-2004 AC). He swept floors for AC for almost 2 yrs before he got his right seat on the Electra.

Something about that doesn't compute. Nobody has a 43 yr pilot career with AC.

And even if he had to sweep floors for two years before getting to the Electra FO seat, at least he was doing it at AC.

Now, the 250 hr wonders have to go all over the northern hinterlands for dock/ramp jobs just to hopefully get an FO job in two years. If they are lucky, that job will put them in a position that in a couple years, they can apply to a Tier 3 carrier so that maybe in a decade they'll be competitive with AC.

Nobody? Hmmm His name is Captain John Trevor..retired in 04 off the A330. Started on the Electra in early 60`s (I may be off a yr or two at most) then went to the DC9, then L1011 then A330. He enjoyed a long career of at least 40 years (2 of them sweeping floors) with AC. Maybe it was 63/64 when he started. I will endeavour to ask him. And I do understand how much times have changed...and it is very difficult to break in, without doing your 5-10 yrs up north. I just happened to be one of those guys who went in the bush and decided I enjoyed it too much to leave.

[JTrain]

Something about that doesn't compute. Nobody has a 43 yr pilot career with AC.

And even if he had to sweep floors for two years before getting to the Electra FO seat, at least he was doing it at AC.

Now, the 250 hr wonders have to go all over the northern hinterlands for dock/ramp jobs just to hopefully get an FO job in two years. If they are lucky, that job will put them in a position that in a couple years, they can apply to a Tier 3 carrier so that maybe in a decade they'll be competitive with AC.[/quote]
Nobody? Hmmm His name is Captain John Trevor..retired in 04 off the A330. Started on the Electra in early 60`s (I may be off a yr or two at most) then went to the DC9, then L1011 then A330. He enjoyed a long career of at least 40 years (2 of them sweeping floors) with AC. Maybe it was 63/64 when he started. I will endeavour to ask him. And I do understand how much times have changed...and it is very difficult to break in, without doing your 5-10 yrs up north. I just happened to be one of those guys who went in the bush and decided I enjoyed it too much to leave.[/quote]


My apologies - didn't mean to come across as I did.

It was a different era then - in many cases you didn't need a college degree, and flight experience required by AC was a lot less.

Give or take a year or two, if he timed it right you could've been at AC from about 20 to 60 (~40 years give or take a couple).

Did he stick around in the training dept afterwards?

Must have had a heck of a time.... Talk about maxing the pension.....

[The Old Fogducker]

I spoke with a fellow a few years ago who retired off the 747 Classic stated the max age for hiring with Air Canada in "the olden days" was 21 .... then it opened up to 26, then an unwritten 29, where it stayed for a long time. I had my CP Air interview at 3 weeks into my 30th year, and in spite of an excellent interview, was told in the PFO letter I was too old ... in a nice way ... something to the effect of "having interviewed numerous candidates with the potential of a longer service life with the company" or similar BS because some rejected applicants had launched a law suit just a little while before I got my "modified content" letter.

Word was that if you hadn't been hired by the majors by the time you were 29, you may as well just shoot yourself, because you were never, ever, going to fly for a "worthwhile" legacy airline in Canada.

Too bad ... they lost the contribution that a large number of highly motivated people could have brought to the company.

The Old Fogducker

[flyinthebug]

Now, the 250 hr wonders have to go all over the northern hinterlands for dock/ramp jobs just to hopefully get an FO job in two years. If they are lucky, that job will put them in a position that in a couple years, they can apply to a Tier 3 carrier so that maybe in a decade they'll be competitive with AC.

[/quote]


My apologies - didn't mean to come across as I did.

It was a different era then - in many cases you didn't need a college degree, and flight experience required by AC was a lot less.

Give or take a year or two, if he timed it right you could've been at AC from about 20 to 60 (~40 years give or take a couple).

Did he stick around in the training dept afterwards?

Must have had a heck of a time.... Talk about maxing the pension.....[/quote]

I had an opportunity to speak to my cousin (Johns son) and he advised me that his dad started with AC in 66 (not 63/64) and retired in 04. I apologize, he only has a 38 yr career. He stayed on the A330 til his last day and retired off that machine.

OFD... That was CP airs loss and TC`s gain. You were one of the "good guys" there and I know you did ALOT to make things better for the 703 ops in your region. Thanks for the support and advice over the years. Its made me a better person, better pilot and better equipped to do what I do. Cheers!