Where should I apply to start working ramp?

[airborn0710]

Hey I'm looking for some advice on getting a start in the industry. I've tried looking through the forums to find an answer but haven't really. I've recently graduated an aviation college program. Commercial Multi-IFR, 230hrs and a float rating on the side. Wrote the IATRA as well. I'm not against starting work as a rampie if it means I get a chance to fly something more advanced from the right seat. Instructing is just not my thing and I'd rather not do it. I know some people here say new pilots working the ramp is wrong and what not. I've heard it all before. The way I see it, right now not many people with my qualifications are going to find a flying job and I'd rather spend my time working the ramp and getting myself into the industry. Of course, I would rather take a job that let me jump into the driver seat right away (who wouldn't) but I knew before starting school this wouldn't necessarily be the case.

So my questions are:
What companies are good places to work the ramp that will eventually lead to a flying job? Anyone know who is looking to hire? What might be the best way to apply? Any details at all are appreciated! (work conditions, sced, pay, housing, wait time etc.)
I'm ready and willing to move anywhere in Canada.

Thanks!

[LPV]

I know some people here say new pilots working the ramp is wrong and what not.

Be thankful for them. Accepting reality will put you one step ahead.
Good luck on your search

[airborn0710]

I've already accepted the reality that there are next to no direct entry flying jobs for someone fresh out of school. If I'm wrong then please point me in the right direction. That is the purpose of my question.

[gabo]

Arctic Sunwest and Summit Air (Summit being the best) in YK have decent ramp times, Tindi is also a good company but expect 2+ years on the ramp and Buffalo is well..... i'm sure know about Buffalo. CMA is also a good company but look forward to the low pay. Also Borek has been hiring guys to work dispatch in YYC then promoting them to the Otter of late, not sure what their minimum requirements are though.

[Mihai]

How did you write the IATRA with 230h, don't you need 250h for that?

As for the best way to get that job, even for the ramp is to go see the people and talk to them. Emails and faxes won't get you anything but disappointment.

[airborn0710]

How did you write the IATRA with 230h, don't you need 250h for that?

As for the best way to get that job, even for the ramp is to go see the people and talk to them. Emails and faxes won't get you anything but disappointment.

It's 150hrs to write the IATRA. And I know the best way is to see them in person, but it is kind of difficult when it means you have to buy a plane ticket just to knock on someone's door to see if they happen to need a pilot. Maybe its what needs to be done though!

[FlaplessDork]

You could start with Perimeter and start bagging Chicken Delight.

[airborn0710]

Is 250hrs a min requirement for a type rating? Seems like some companies that hire onto the ramp want 250hrs...Should I be looking to get that since I have 230 now?

[RVR6000]

Borek (Dispatch)
Arctic Sunwest
Keewatin Air
Summit Air
Wasaya
Tindi (Apparently the wait time is about 2 years)
CMA
Air Sprint (Dispatch)
Perimeter
Bravo (Dispatch)
Transwest

[Seriously?]

I heard North-Wright Air is getting a little short staff, so who knows, there could be hiring there in the near future...

They take guys fresh outta school to work the office for about a year i think. Get a liver check-up before you go

[modi13]

I've been informed that the shortest wait time in YZF is two years, and for places like Tindi where it's normally two anyway, it's now 3+. CMA is over two years too.

[Brown Bear]

Stupid is, as stupid does.

[loopa]

How did you write the IATRA with 230h, don't you need 250h for that?

As for the best way to get that job, even for the ramp is to go see the people and talk to them. Emails and faxes won't get you anything but disappointment.

It's 150hrs to write the IATRA. And I know the best way is to see them in person, but it is kind of difficult when it means you have to buy a plane ticket just to knock on someone's door to see if they happen to need a pilot. Maybe its what needs to be done though!

But it's 250 hours to exercise it's privilege as referenced by CAR 421.40 (3) in the experience requirements.

(3) Individual Type Rating Requirements

(a) Aeroplane - Two Crew ...
...
(ii) Experience

An applicant shall have completed flight training on the aeroplane type and have completed a minimum of 250 hours pilot flight time on aeroplanes.

Therefore I reckon that if a company like CMA was to look at you, they would want for you to have 250 hours because what if they needed you to work tomorrow (what if...), would you be able to hold a type rating at 230 hours?

Some companies recognize that it takes time for you to get a flying job; they also know that your IATRA and Multi IFR will expire so they will take you in based on other measures with the understanding that if you're not ready for work when called up, it's your job to lose. I think perimeter is one of such companies. I'm not entirely sure but I think they take you in with less than 250 hours and even without a multi ifr? Maybe some of my friends over at Perimeter can confirm this. I'll ask for you!

As for the comment on having to buy airplane tickets, well this is where somebody might of said, told ya so! This is one of the biggest reasons why I signed up for a credit card with points as SOON as I was eligible, and used my credit card miles to travel around. I couldn't get all of my 45k training on there, but I spent a good 37k on my credit card and ventured up quite a few miles, enough to help me fly around until I got an interview with a company that I had just e-mailed my resume's too lol. But I don't regret the process of finding a job by going out and meeting some awesome, and then some not so very awesome people.

Since you're on the job hunt, you have to be thinking networking networking networking (repeat that 5 billion more times). My long term goal is WestJet, so low and behold, I booked all my flights on WestJet, spoke with all the crew on board, and actually helped setting up the seat belts on a quick fuel stop in Hamilton. I found that being around such an environment actually made the job finding process much more fun and encouraging, especially when I saw that the captain was out helping the crew by vaccuming the plane cause of short staffed ground crew and a tight slot time to fit into.

All the best to you buddy!

[Brown Bear]

Two years from now, you'll still have 230 hours, have forgotten how to fly (if you ever knew how in the first place) lost any relationships you have now, own at least one pair of Sorels and a really big parka, and be a damn fine forklift driver.....Kewl future.

[duramaxguy]

It's 150hrs to write the IATRA. And I know the best way is to see them in person, but it is kind of difficult when it means you have to buy a plane ticket just to knock on someone's door to see if they happen to need a pilot. Maybe its what needs to be done though!

Why waste money on an expensive plane ticket?! Road trip! there is no substitute for that. I was in your position this spring and made the trip. Found myself a job....ive put on 150 hours since I started in May (not too shabby for my first 2 and a half months as a low timer ).....ive talked to lots of operators up here that wont hire a guy unless they've met them (ie: show up in person).

If your desperate enough and really want a job your going to have to fork out some money and effort into finding it......they dont find you!

best of luck,

TM

[airborn0710]

Two years from now, you'll still have 230 hours, have forgotten how to fly (if you ever knew how in the first place) lost any relationships you have now, own at least one pair of Sorels and a really big parka, and be a damn fine forklift driver.....Kewl future.

So tell me, do you have a job as a pilot right now? How did you get there? Or are you speaking from past experience.

[HighBypass]

Summit Air in YZF recently hired 3 people in april with around 200 hrs. it only took them 2 months to get checked out on the d228. Another guy jsut started about 1 month ago and is getting checked out shortly. Not a bad ramp time if you ask me. An above poster said the ramp wait in YZF in 3+ years. that is simply not correct. The longest wait is @ tindi, which is 2 years.

Not sure about ASC. I'm sure they would be hiring too. I heard their ramp staff consisted of some seneca coop students and thats about it.

[fish4life]

Borek (Dispatch)
Arctic Sunwest
Keewatin Air
Summit Air
Wasaya
Tindi (Apparently the wait time is about 2 years)
CMA
Air Sprint (Dispatch)
Perimeter
Bravo (Dispatch)
Transwest

+1

as for perimeter they do hire guys without all their licenses completed.

not having the 250 hours will make it hard to get a ramp job at a company that puts new hires right seat on planes that are 12 500 and above because they you'll need the 250 for the type rating where anything under 12500 your good to go with just your commercial

[Hoov]

It's definitely more than 2 years at Tindi.

[altiplano]

-

[Brown Bear]

Two years from now, you'll still have 230 hours, have forgotten how to fly (if you ever knew how in the first place) lost any relationships you have now, own at least one pair of Sorels and a really big parka, and be a damn fine forklift driver.....Kewl future.

So tell me, do you have a job as a pilot right now? How did you get there? Or are you speaking from past experience.

While I'll readily admit to not being in the same "boat" as a low time pilot, I would like to know where you will find a seat in two years if there are no seats now? For you to get a "seat", I would assume that someone else has vacated one. What are the guys who have just finished being a ramp slave for the past two years doing? Are there suddenly pilot jobs available just because they have worked the ramp for two years? I doubt it very much. It's like all you guys expect the clouds to part after two years on a ramp, and some operator magically creating a flying position for you. Bottom line? It cost you, or your parents about thirty thousand dollars just to get you to this point. Now you guys are willing to kiss ass, at a manual labour position for the privilege of being treated like shit by some slime ball company, who, in some cases will require that you, or your parents, put up another 10-15 thousand dollars to do what you/they have already paid 30K for you to get the licence to do in the first place. Have some pride people.

[modi13]

While I'll readily admit to not being in the same "boat" as a low time pilot, I would like to know where you will find a seat in two years if there are no seats now? For you to get a "seat", I would assume that someone else has vacated one. What are the guys who have just finished being a ramp slave for the past two years doing? Are there suddenly pilot jobs available just because they have worked the ramp for two years? I doubt it very much. It's like all you guys expect the clouds to part after two years on a ramp, and some operator magically creating a flying position for you. Bottom line? It cost you, or your parents about thirty thousand dollars just to get you to this point. Now you guys are willing to kiss ass, at a manual labour position for the privilege of being treated like shit by some slime ball company, who, in some cases will require that you, or your parents, put up another 10-15 thousand dollars to do what you/they have already paid 30K for you to get the licence to do in the first place. Have some pride people.

I've worked ramp, dock, dispatch, and instructed, and all of them sucked, so I'm far from an apologist, but, practically speaking, refusing to work in aviation unless it's flying isn't going to get you anywhere. There are flying jobs for low-timers, but they're few and far between; you have to be in the right place at the exact right time or know the right people. Most of us don't have that kind of luck. Besides, if there aren't enough jobs to go around as it is, how well do you think it would work out if all of the low-timers refused to work the ramp and only applied for the 180/185 jobs? The reality is that there are more pilots than jobs, and I look at it this way: an airline has a full complement of pilots, but promises a low-timer a spot once someone leaves (it's a waiting list for an opening, not the company manufacturing a seat after the rampie has paid their dues). The low-timer has the option of working fast food/customer service/other job not requiring any education until said position becomes available, or they can take a job with the company, learning their operations and becoming familiar with the aircraft. Let me be very clear though: this should not be a requirement of every pilot, nor should they be paid or treated any differently than any non-pilots doing the same job. If it's mandatory that low-timers have to pay their dues, even if there are flying jobs available, or the company only hires pilots because they can be exploited, they should be shut down. Working the ramp should be something that you do in lieu of another non-flying job, not a necessary step before getting into a cockpit.

[Brown Bear]

I'd work outside the industry before I worked a ramp for a company like Wasaya, or Buffalo.
That's what I would do. Of course, I'm old and jaded. I think new pilots are treated like absolute CRAP and, they don't have the balls to say..."NO"!

[eyespie]

What you need to do is find a flying job as quickly as possible. Never stop road-tripping, visiting CPs, and applying for jobs until you've found one. In the meantime, hedge your bets and find a job on the ground that you can reasonably believe will lead to a pilot seat at some time if the future. Don't go to that job and give up looking for something else.
Don't worry about whether people on AvCanada think working the ramp at Buffalo, CMA, or wherever is un-dignified. Do what you need to do to get a flying job; if you can do that without working the ground, good for you. If not...

[GUMPS]

I'd work outside the industry before I worked a ramp for a company like Wasaya, or Buffalo.
That's what I would do. Of course, I'm old and jaded. I think new pilots are treated like absolute CRAP and, they don't have the balls to say..."NO"!

Bear, venture back into your den and stop your bitching. If someone wants to work the ramp while waiting for an opportunity to get into the right seat of an aircraft, that's their decision. Most future pilots would rather work on a dock or on a ramp around the industry they love rather then a factory job or something completely disconnected from their career goals. Times have changed since the old pilots here started...Either adapt to the changes or move on.