Man up.

[Expat]

I'm with Nark.
VFR is VFR, even if its 2 mi and 500' (in the right airspace). It does not sound like anyone was 'pushing' this person to fly in 1/2 and 400'.

I've seen people refuse to fly, or return in similar situations.

There are 3 types here;
1) those that continually refuse or return,
2) those that go regardless and pushing on like (and often acting like) a hero and,
3) those that progressively gain experience and comfort in stages to marginal VFR.

After a short time, and hopefully some mentoring, companies (that care) can see who is which and they don't want or have any need for those that are 1 or 2.

The main point is to encourage and teach - NOT push - those that can learn, while continually reminding them not to push beyond their current limits, and most important, to leave an out.

...and there are the ones who believe that flying means being able to fly when needed. I know a few pilots, that made a point to be able to fly 0/0 if needed, in order to stay alive when needed. Of course they lied, cheated, but they could put it down and save their and other's lives when needed. I think that this is important in many parts of the world, if you want to live. And it is possible with modern technology!
Heck, I am still alive!!!

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

So this place you speak of; it's an airline...outpost, w/e ? Forgive me for my honesty, but I would never apply to a place which even namelessly, calls out their employees with such disrespect like a high school purse club. Who are you trying to fool? This girl might be a shitty pilot, rather a shitty person (your opinion), but in all honesty,.. sir, you have a real shitty attitude. Which in my opinion totally dissolves any potential arguement you could have made. If someone is not comfortable then that is their choice to make. They do not OWE YOU ANYTHING! They are bloody employees. Such a joke.

[LegoMan]

A shitty pilot is one that went beyond his/her abilities and the aircrafts and ends up dead. A shitty pilot is not one who doesn't feel safe. Just because other companies got in doesn't mean you need to push yourself. They have different experience and probably different equipment. I agree with Road Trip, she made her choice, for her it was the best and possibly for the operation as well.... move on.

If this employee was under any probation they don't owe you 2 weeks notice, just as an operation doesn't owe them a 2 weeks notice. Believe me companies won't give you 2 weeks notice.

[arsenal]

As Cat Driver says "The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no".

She made the right decision. Classless Nark.

[Expat]

Nark,

That pilot probably just learned to kiss *ss better, and got a better job somewhere else. She used that excuse to get out fast from your company.

[Expat]

As Cat Driver says "The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no".

She made the right decision. Classless Nark.

At my airport, we never said No! Once the controller asked what we were doing, we said, after landing 100/100, we are just doing taxi tests.

[Big Pistons Forever]

At my airport, we never said No! Once the controller asked what we were doing, we said, after landing 100/100, we are just doing taxi tests.

Whoop Whoop.... troll alert troll alert

[Sulako]

I gotta agree with the guys who say she made the right decision. If you aren't comfortable doing a flight, you gotta listen to your gut. Being worried that another pilot might be inconvenienced because you are uncomfortable doing a flight doesn't make taking the flight any safer. Being yelled at on the internet doesn't make taking the flight any safer either.

I think there are a couple of different lessons to be learned here:

1. It's not okay to try to pressure a pilot into taking a flight. 99.99% of pilots have a fair amount of ego invested in their self-image as a pilot, and 99.99% of pilots are going to try to get the job done to the best of their ability. If a pilot says they are scared, they are scared - even if you aren't - and it's simply not appropriate to try to convince them otherwise. Wouldn't you feel bad if you browbeat another pilot into taking a trip and they crashed and died? I sure would.

2. Get call display. On your days off, don't answer the phone if it has anything to do with the company. If you don't have call display, then just don't answer the phone. If you simply must answer the phone on your days off and it's your company asking you to go flying, either tell them you are fatigued or that you have had a beer or two, depending on which one is the truth. You NEED days off to recuperate from a tough flying schedule. You also NEED beers to recuperate from a tough flying schedule

[Ogee]

I would not hire a truck driver that cannot drive in rain, or snow, or fog,... If I hired a truck driver, he would drive until the road is officially closed.
What is the diff?

Umm...you can pull over in a truck when you can't see?
There are no mountains in the middle of the road?

For starters.

[Bushav8er]

I know a few pilots, that made a point to be able to fly 0/0 if needed, in order to stay alive when needed. Of course they lied, cheated, but they could put it down and save their and other's lives when needed.

And thats a good thing? "Stay alive when needed?" D-E-C-I-S-I-O-N M-A-K-I-N-G - don't go or turn around. Sorry but 0/0 is IFR anywhere in the world - period. You fly VFR or IFR. Additionally, if they lie and cheat it points to poor attitude and judgment - marginally fine if they are alone but NOT when flying paying customers!

Look at this guy that thought he was good enough and its not even full 0/0 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa5XRR88uPY

+1 BPF - time schools stopped taking cash on 'pretty days' and started teaching for all the legal conditions.

[HS-748 2A]

Quitting was the right thing to do. I don't think Nark even would despute that.

Where she evidently did not take the high road though, was to go around after the fact trashing the company saying that they were pushing her to fly in bad weather when that was not the case.

What really put the icing on the cake was that you accused the powers-at-be of pushing you.

She should have given some notice before pulling the pin too.

Hopefully she does not have the audacity to B.S. the F.A.A. causing undue attention to be drawn to the company.

But otherwise, WTF ~? Good ridance.

End of story.

'48

[AuxBatOn]

That's why there are rules defining minimum ceiling/visibility. If a pilot cannot safely operate in the minimum conditions, he should be tutored, and failing that should change job.

[Just another canuck]

I can't believe anyone here is actually knocking this girl for saying no... oh, poor Nark, you had to go in to fly on your day off. Boo f**kin' hoo!!

I used to say no once in awhile in Papua due to weather and the Indo guys were still going in... but, once a month or so, you know what happened to those Indo Twin Otters don't you? They ended up on the side of the mountain. Maybe it's a blessing in disguise... maybe this girl was the shits. But maybe she would have been a good employee... she would likely not end up a statistic because of "pushing weather". I really don't know, but the point is she made the right decision and will be better off for having made it.

Mountains and bad weather are a lethal combination which should be taken very seriously... and the learning curve should be taken at a very shallow level. Just my opinion.

Also, +1 to Sulako's post.

[iflyforpie]

That's why there are rules defining minimum ceiling/visibility. If a pilot cannot safely operate in the minimum conditions, he should be tutored, and failing that should change job.

That is 100% wrong!

Show me a pilot who operates in bare VFR minimums around where I fly, and I'll show you a wrecked aircraft and a dead pilot within a year or two if not sooner.

Weather can always get worse, terrain can be obscured by shadow, clouds can give you false horizon, high winds can slam you into terrain or tear your aircraft apart, lack of familiarity with terrain can suck you in; all with perfectly legal VFR flying conditions.

Legal isn't always safe...

[MrWings]

You push the weather once and you get through. The next time you push it a little bit more. You keep pushing the weather and one time you will get caught.

I had to laugh at the title and the fact he is talking about a female pilot. Sounds like an old school attitude type of place to work. I do not doubt the pilot wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.

[BTD]

It is unfortunate to have happened this way, but if she felt uncomfortable in the job, it only devalues her stance to stay on and continue to do things she isn't necessarily comfortable doing for another two weeks.

I'm not sure what the legal requirements in Alaska are, but in many Canadian provinces the employee is not legally required to give notice before leaving. It is obviously a courtesy that most people will extend if they feel their safety is not jeopardized. Usually if you don't, you just end up torpedoing yourself.

The employment standards legislation in most Canadian jurisdictions requires employees to give their employer some notice of their intention to quit. Although no such requirement exists in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New Brunswick, Nunavut, or the Northwest Territories, employees in the other jurisdictions are generally required to give either one or two weeks notice of their intention to quit, depending on their length of service. In Newfoundland and Labrador, long-serving employees may be required to give as much as six weeks notice.

http://www.rhdcc-hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour ... ge11.shtml

BTD

[fish4life]

ok she may have had some reason to quit but had no reason to go bashing the company after she did quit.

As well if she is scared / uncomfortable in flying in those conditions (which are legal) save the company the time and money wasted training you and don't apply there. Unless your pre-pared to fly in all legal conditions such as MVFR don't apply at a VFR operation maybe an IFR one is more suited to her needs... then again IFR may just scare her all together

[Just another canuck]

ok she may have had some reason to quit but had no reason to go bashing the company after she did quit.

As well if she is scared / uncomfortable in flying in those conditions (which are legal) save the company the time and money wasted training you and don't apply there. Unless your pre-pared to fly in all legal conditions such as MVFR don't apply at a VFR operation maybe an IFR one is more suited to her needs... then again IFR may just scare her all together

Did she personally call you and bash the company? You and no one here has any idea what she may or may not have said about it. I'm not calling Nark a liar, but when you are upset, it's very easy to distort or exaggerate the words of the person you are upset with. Flying in MVFR can be easily adapted to in some areas... but Alaska is a different story, as is in other parts of the world and learning to fly in MVFR in these areas should be taken in small steps. She was new... when you're new, you take things one step at a time, especially when there are big mountains around.

Like iflyforpie said, legal is one thing, but safe is another. We're talking about 2 miles of vis here, right... that's really not a whole lot.

I had to laugh at the title and the fact he is talking about a female pilot.

I was thinking the exact same thing.


Edited to add... just re-read all of Nark's posts and it sounds like she didn't belong there (in over her head). And it sounds like no amount of training will get her to level she needs to be at, which only adds to the supporting argument that the sooner she was gone, the better. If she was that awful Nark, did you or the company really want her around for another two weeks? Like already stated, good riddance.

[Brown Bear]

I went back over the thread. Nark has taken more "heat" since he stated the gender of the pilot than before. Interesting.
I've got more time than most of you. I've flown in worse weather than most of you. I've turned back, and refused trips, and I've had some pilots second guess me and take trips that I've turned down. Some even completed the trip, but more than a few turned back. I used to have pretty low limits back in the day.
I think KAG put it best. It's a blessing in disguise. Be happy you're on separate paths. Happy trails to you, until we meet again...

[OceansEdge]

It is unfortunate to have happened this way, but if she felt uncomfortable in the job, it only devalues her stance to stay on and continue to do things she isn't necessarily comfortable doing for another two weeks.

I'm not sure what the legal requirements in Alaska are, but in many Canadian provinces the employee is not legally required to give notice before leaving. It is obviously a courtesy that most people will extend if they feel their safety is not jeopardized. Usually if you don't, you just end up torpedoing yourself.

The employment standards legislation in most Canadian jurisdictions requires employees to give their employer some notice of their intention to quit. Although no such requirement exists in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New Brunswick, Nunavut, or the Northwest Territories, employees in the other jurisdictions are generally required to give either one or two weeks notice of their intention to quit, depending on their length of service. In Newfoundland and Labrador, long-serving employees may be required to give as much as six weeks notice.

http://www.rhdcc-hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/labour ... ge11.shtml

BTD

Just a note.... aviation employees fall under Federal Labour Standards - not their local provincial regulations

[BTD]

I'm not sure what the legal requirements in Alaska are, but in many Canadian provinces the employee is not legally required to give notice before leaving. It is obviously a courtesy that most people will extend if they feel their safety is not jeopardized. Usually if you don't, you just end up torpedoing yourself.

BTD

Just a note.... aviation employees fall under Federal Labour Standards - not their local provincial regulations

[Hawkerflyer]

She went to Jazz

[Rotten Apple #1]

She went to Jazz

And she'll have a good story for her WJ interview!!

[Ogee]

That's why there are rules defining minimum ceiling/visibility. If a pilot cannot safely operate in the minimum conditions, he should be tutored, and failing that should change job.

And what would the tutoring be?

How do you possibly "tutor" someone about flying in marginal conditions? If you're being "tutored", how do you fail?

It's pretty easy to beak off about 2000 and 2, but whether or not that is safe or within someone's personal limits depends on many different factors. Where is it 2000 and 2? At an airport you're taking off from? The airport your landing at? All the way between them. What's causing that weather, which way is it moving? If it's at an airport, how far does it extend along the route? How much does the terrain rise up into that 2000 as the flight progresses?

If I'm at Revelstoke airport and its 2000 and 2 and I'm going to Golden, I ain't going. At least fixed wing. If I've been "tutored" at Revelstoke, it isn't worth a pinch of coonshit if I'm deciding whether to take off from Princeton to Abbotsford if its 2000 and 2 at both ends.

Now 2000 and 2 Regina to Moose Jaw, that's a different story. Even better if you're in a Tutor.

[crazy_aviator]

No need to have a good story,, there is whats called equal opportunity and also a quota system in larger companies, wherein you need to hire more than a few token women and visible minorities,,the most obvious employers with those requirements are the provincial and federal governments! I remember working for Rusty Myers air service in Fort Frances Ontario awhile back, there was a female pilot before me who flew into deteriorating BAD weather and continued on till she finally "gave up" and took her hands off the controls and the beech 18 on floats flew into the trees, all survived rather well, the airplane burned ( a passenger told of this story and her taking her hands off the controls ) She was hired to fly for a small regional airline afterward!!!
When i flew for Rusty , i had an ace up my sleeve and most pilots laughed about it ,,,,, I had set up and practiced a 0-0 approach and landing onto the lake at rustys and KNEW it was only an emergency maneuver BUT it would work well!! I wish she had done the same and didnt wreck that beech and mentally damage 10+ customers. Ironic that the MOST experienced and wise pilots on this forum often refrain from judging another pilot quickly, those who would be in a position to judge, WISELY would rather learn themselves and teach others!