Training Bonds

[capt.k]

I am sure most of us would agree that training bonds are becoming more common these days. i think employers are forgetting that training bonds are supposed to help ensure them a fair return on their investment (the cost to train you) It should not be used to finance the training. An employer should be responsible to cover the cost to train new employees.

That is why I would agree on pilots signing contracts or a promisary note but not on going to the bank for the coin themselves. i was curious about what companies require pilots to hand over a fistful of cash with no protection for the pilot in the event of a Jetsgo situation. I am sure Bearskin does, any others out there.

Are there any companies that bond for recurrent training?

[Snagmaster E]

There've been a few threads on this....

As for the note, I heard from another member that they can't do that, something about signing under duress.

I don't like bonds at all. Think is, people keep paying them.


Sigh.

[cyyz]

An employer should be responsible to cover the cost to train new employees.

Rofl.. Yes, so only people with ratings get the job... :rolls eyes:

whats the difference between giving your money to the company that hires you instead of another party that will train you?

You have the same rating at the end of the training, but you have a chance of getting the money back from your employer if you paid through him...

[Snowgoose]

How about I mention my options since you think training bonds are so evil. Let me say that I don't like them either but they have become a reality.

I am a f/o on a certain plane (name does not need mentioning because I am sure most others planes have the same situation)

If I want to go captain at my company I have to sign a 2 year bond and fork over the money. I might not like that so much so I looked elsewhere. Another company I applied to asked me to sign a 4 year bond, pro rated, promise to pay. I thought that was a little too long so I kept applying. Another company offered me captain with a 3 year bond non-pro-rated, promise to pay. Didn't like too much either so I kept applying. Another company I applied won't hire anyone who isn't PPC'ed. Any yet another company wants me to come in on the bottom of the seniority pile and wait in line for captain, not sure who long that would be. Getting a little tired of being poor.

I thought maybe it's time to get onto another aircraft. Well the ones I have applied too told me I have the experience but no ATPL. I have the exams written but I am short about 15 hours. So I would have to go captain first. And would have to sign a bond. I looked into smaller operators but they all want bonds too.

So you tell me what I should do if I don't want to sign a bond. An no Home Depot isn't an option.

[Jaques Strappe]

Many Corporations will invest in middle managers who are interested in continuing their education. The company will provide funding for an executive MBA for example but you do enter into a loyalty contract. You don't go out and get a loan, anyone can do that.

As for signing under duress, as stated earlier, I don't see any gun at your head.

So it isn't just aviation that has this. We just have idiots ready to mortgage the house to give some creep a bag of money in return for an under-par salary. You won't see an MBA grad doing that.

[Snowgoose]

You think on f/o pay I can put hardwood floors in the garage I am living in?

What type of experience do you need to be a middle manager or executive. You are talking years at a company or lots of previous experience in that environment. I think the pilot that has been the longest at my company has been there for like 4 years. And relatively speaking that's a long time. If you think an MBA is so easy go fund one yourself. It's a little hard after paying off the flying bills to go drops another 30k.

Edward Jones Investments wants a 45k 3 year training bond for their mutual fund advisors. It's not only our industry too. Think about signing bonuses. You have the 5k but you have to stay 2 years or else you have to pay it back. Only in our industry the bonus is getting trained. When I started flying for a living I thought training was paid for by sweat equity. You work long enough for little pay and the training pays for itself. That's the way I think it used to be.

Like I said before I don't like bonds, but they are a reality. Blame it on our predecessors, CARS, TC or whatever you like. In this day unless you are going to Westjet or Air Can for an interview or you already have a PPC there's a good chance the company you are at or are applying to are going to ask for a loyalty agreement.

Any company that doesn't require bonds I bet you is only going to hire PPC'ed guys. Go look in the Job Ads. Virtually every line job wants a PPC or gives preference to.

So again I ask you, what's the alternative.

[Jaques Strappe]

WTF?

Not sure i understand your rant. No one is saying that an MBA is easy. Many of my friends have had continuing education provided by their employer with less than 4 years of service. Some is six months when all company benefits kick in.

I agree with you. Bonds are coming and here to stay. Welcome to the world of Walmart business models. The only thing pilots can do is try to apply what type of bond they are willing to accept. Case in point of how not to do it is jetsgo.

So that my friend, to answer your question, is the alternative.

BTW.........go with laminate flooring for the garage, much cheaper than hardwood!

[xsbank]

I cannot see anything wrong with pro-rated loyalty bonds. My company provides the type rating in exchange for 2 years service. Too many pilots took the training then screwed off for an airline or something, thereby leaving the company with a huge ($40,000) bill and nobody being productive for it.
I would never commit to a longer period, even though I've been here much longer now and the pay is good.
Money up front is just not an option. With the survival rate of the average company being so dismal, you're better off taking your dough to the Montreal casino.

And one last thing - just don't work for dick. If you are productive, you should be paid what you are worth. Paying your dues, OK. Slave labour, no.

[Legacy]

So what would happen if all pilots said no to training bonds? Would employers just seize operations? i doubt it. so it is all a game of who will crack first. pilots of course because we are a bunch of pussies that will do ANYTHING for a job including selling our firstborn. we suck!

[capt.k]

i agree with Legacy. We do suck. That is why I was wondering what companies out there make you sign a bond. I would make sure I avoided applying to those companies in the future. It would be nice if we all would just say no to bonds

[flynbutcher]

In the real world, there are always desparate people out there(Jetsgo Pilots) that do stupid things to hurt themselves and their fellow colleagues. It's too bad but that will never change

[avcanada]

So what if we as a group decided it was no longer acceptable to sign a training bond?

If this was the case across the board, for everyone, the only loss would be for the companies who could not provide a descent working/living environment for their employees to stick around.

If you are truly happy with where you are, why is a training bond even necessary?

The real problem is upper management not going the extra mile to keep their employees happy.

If a bond is required to keep guys around to do the work, then the company obviously has some issues.

As a manager/owner I think a better way to protect your training costs would be to make sure your employees felt truly happy with their work environment.

A happy employee sticks around.

My two cents.

[capt.k]

great idea on paper and i can promise that I will never sign another training bond, it would be nice if we could get all pilots to justy say NO to training bonds, working for free and buying PPC. But being the bunch of sell outs we are as a group it will never work. There will always be that one guy. Any thoughts on how to police something like this

[avcanada]

Yes there will always be that one guy I agree.

Is the problem that one guy no. We all have are own motivations for taking a job be it desperation, necessity, the need for a new work environment....

Why operators or shifting towards training bonds is because:
-everyone else is
-protects their interests

So the only way this will ever go away is if the government made it unacceptable across the board. The only way the government will make this happen is if enough individuals complain about the problem.

I don't think employers would have a heart burn about dropping training bonds if they new this was an industry wide unacceptable practise.

My last post offers a solution to a managers however, invest some time and money into employee happiness and the bond is not necessary.

[cyyz]

So the only way this will ever go away is if the government made it unacceptable across the board. The only way the government will make this happen is if enough individuals complain about the problem.

I don't think employers would have a heart burn about dropping training bonds if they new this was an industry wide unacceptable practise.

And then the only job offers/listings would say "only PPC'd pilots need apply" so all the Jetsgo pilots would have gone to Active Aerospace first, and guess what, its $30k for a rating.

So they'd go dump 30k on a rating first, but still NO GUARANTEE for a job and probably no guarantee at the rating.

So they'd still be out 30k.

So it would turn into the "50 hour float course" BS deal..

How did that ever come about, some "brainiacs" thought "working the ramp isn't fair lets help the pilots out."

[Over Gross]

One question. Is a training bond something you sign that says you will pay the company back for your training if you bail on them early or is a training bond money you pay to a company that they will slowly pay you back so that you don't leave early?

If you are just making a promise not to leave for x amount of time, I think it is a good idea from the business point of view, as long as the bond reflects the amount of money they put into you and a reasonable amount of time. As long as there is something in the contract that states what your expected to do as an employee and their responsibility as an employer.

That way, if your quiting because you don't feel like washing the owner's car every friday, you don't have to pay up. But if your leaving because there is a bigger better job calling your name, pay up.

Aviation is my second career. I used to run a delivery business and I used to pay for the drivers training when they were ready to move to the bigger rigs and they just agreed not to leave for the next 6 months. Verbal Agreement. In 9 years, 2 people left early. One was a female that got pregnant, the other guy went to do hard time for a year; he came back and worked for me for another 2 years when he got out.

[Jaques Strappe]

AvCanada wrote

"The real problem is upper management not going the exta mile to keep their employees happy."

Couldn't agree more, however, Lets say you are upper management of a small King Air operation. Unlike most other operators, you give your pilots a decent shedudule with guaranteed days off, lets say 12 a month. You provide a nice benefit package and pay as much as the operation will allow. How about $70K. That is pretty generous for a King Air.

How long do you think guys will stick around when they hear that a major airline is hiring? Hell, lets say Westjet which will provide a similar schedule and base pay. Infact you will be in the right seat starting at less. I think many would bail. Pilots have always chased airplanes to satisfy their egos.

[avcanada]

If an employer can get an employee who is experienced in an aircraft than why shouldn't they be able to say PPC'd required.

If an employee wants to go out and fork over 30K then that would be their choice. I don't think an employer should have the right to say however the job is yours if you are willing to get into this training bond with us. No employee should be put into this situation. Now if a guy wanted to go down the street and pay for this training, I don't see this to be any different than for a guy to go to a local flight school to get trained.

If an employer can save money by getting experience crew why would that be a bad thing.

[cyyz]

If an employer can get an employee who is experienced in an aircraft than why shouldn't they be able to say PPC'd required.....

I don't think an employer should have the right to say however the job is yours if you are willing to get into this training bond with us

If an employee(you meant employer?) can save money by getting experience crew why would that be a bad thing.

Just like, if an employer can earn money by getting unemployed pilots to sign up, give him money for their jobs, why is that a 'bad' thing...

I'd rather have employers offering a training bond for $500 instead of being forced to get a PPC before the job offer.

You're saying, it's okay for pilots to go and buy a PPC to get ahead, but it's bad for them to pay $1 for a training bond to move up.

They're both equally as bad and are identical.

Person A(IMO) would rather have a job guarantee and sacrifice $1 for a training bond.

And I don't think Person B who spent X dollars for a rating should open his mouth about training bonds anyways since he's just as bad.

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 3240#63240

[xsbank]

I think there is some confusion over training bonds and paying for a ppc. With a training bond, you agree to stay and work for the company for (say) 2 years. If you quit to go to Jetsgo (just kidding) you would have to pay back whatever portion of your bond was outstanding. If you do not quit, there is NO EFFECT on your paycheque. NONE. If you pay for your PPC, there is some way you must pay it back out of your salary - HUGE EFFECT ON YOUR PAYCHEQUE.

Lots of corporate operators want training bonds, for more than just financial reasons. They want to know that when you say you want the job, you will stick around for at least the length of the bond.

If you want to chase a job with a seniority number, you will have to pay (many times this is negotiable - few operators want someone hanging around who does not want to work there).

So what's wrong with the bond???

[Legacy]

AvCanada wrote

How long do you think guys will stick around when they hear that a major airline is hiring?

Yes MAYBE they will leave for WestJet BUT if you can delay that and get one more year out of your employee you would save lots of $$. Not everyone wants to go to the airlines.

Again as brought up before, why don't employers find a promisary note sufficient. Actually the good companies do. Why does an employer NEED to have my hard earned 30K out of my retirement savings? I have been around long enough in this industry and I see a trend that the companies that do require 30K (or whatever from you) are the crap companioes that have serious problems within. I use that statement as a GENERAL indication of companies. I won't say all but i bet 95%. The guys that have signed a 30K (or whatevr) or will sign a training bond have you ever told the employer "No I will not sign a training bond but will gladly sign a promissary note"? If not try it next time. if the employer does not go for it ask them why? I would be very suspicious of the company if they did not agree to it. look at the companies that have promissary notes: skyservice, westwind, north caribou, sunwest, london air, chevron (well gone now) but these companies treated their guys well and dont lose many pilots. why dont they need 30K?

[talkinghead]

When I did the training bond thing, it was 10 grand for two years.
I went to the bank and got a loan for the 10 grand and the minute I was on line the company started paying off the loan, If I left before two yrs was up I had the rest of the loan to pay off. (If I remember all this correctly)
Did I like this, No.
WOULD I do it again? NO.

[Jaques Strappe]

Legacy

You are right, not everyone wants to go to the airlines but most do. As I said in my earlier post, anyone who wants to go to the airlines will. It used to be, not so much anymore, the most secure job.

I don't agree with anyone paying for a PPC. I do think however, that a bond in the form of Promisary note or otherwise, ( no cash up front ) is an acceptable way for an employer to slow down the revolving door.

Anyone who asks for cash up front should send off major warning bells. In the never ending discussions about Jetsgo and paying 30 grand, I warned about guys getting stiffed long before Jetsgo went down. Anyone who needs cash up front obviously does not have any to begin with and should not be relied upon. Especially if his initials are M.L.......but thats another story.

It comes down to.........what goes around, comes around. About 90% of guys who pay up front end up at the EI line anyway because guess what........their employer went bust. Big Surprise!! It is called natural selection! In my career, everyone you I knew to have purchased a type rating to get ahead is either unemployed or forever looking for work.

A loyalty bond is at least a shared risk. Actually, no risk to the pilot. You just have to agree to stay employed for the next two years. Isn't that what we all want anyway?

[avcanada]

You're saying, it's okay for pilots to go and buy a PPC to get ahead, but it's bad for them to pay $1 for a training bond to move up.

No that is not what I am saying.

I don't think a pilot should be placed in the position to do either.

I also think its an employers responsibility to get the most qualified/experienced employees for the position = pilots with experience on type.

If they can not find these guys however they should not be looking for training agreements on the guy who comes up short.

What a guy has when he comes in the door is all his choice. To get the job over the other guy with the same experience shouldn't come down to who his willing to sign into a training agreement however.

[Cat Driver]

" A loyalty bond is at least a shared risk. Actually, no risk to the pilot. You just have to agree to stay employed for the next two years. Isn't that what we all want anyway? "


Exactly.

Paying money up front on the other hand will make it harder for the pilot to refuse to fly unairworthy aircraft and generally break the regulations and push the safety envelope.

Thankfully these issues were never a concern for me because I was never asked to pay money upfront for any training....if I had been I would have walked and found another employer.

Cat