Please help

[Boeing boy]

Hi

I'm supposed to be attending the University of Western Ontario this September for a program in the Geography field. From research I know the airlines prefer pilots with degrees (not sure about college diplomas to be honest :S). That is the ONLY reason I'm in that program. Due to personal and financial issues I can not move out of London to go to Seneca or another college/university with a good aviation program. So, I decided to do this program at UWO while attending flight school or start flight school after I finish university. Lately, I've been pretty angry that I didn't move out and went into aviation right away just because I want a university degree I'm thinking of dropping this university thing and just going to a local flight academy for a proffesional pilot program. I heard some give out Honors diplomas as well if you're a good student. What do you guys think.. and thanks alot for taking the time to read and reply.

[zed]

I would suggest you start by educating yourself with a search of AVCANADA. The question of getting an university degree or starting to fly with a CPL right away has been debated numerous times. As well as any degree or one (or diploma) in Aviation.

To get you started here a number:
viewtopic.php?f=54&t=61099
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=61741
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=46802
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57696

I don't believe education is ever wasted. But when you only have so many $$$ you need to figure out where the biggest bang for your buck is. However, I can tell you that getting your degree when your young at the start is a whole hell of a lot less painful then trying to get it later on. But your personal situation is something that you have to figure out by weighing the pros and cons. Personally, I think you did that when you decided to go to University and now you find it difficult and are wondering if it was the right decision. A normal situation for many people starting University. But then I might be wrong about the specifics of your particular situation. But my advice is to stay your course, don't go jumping back and forth, and finish what you started. Your airline career is undoubtedly quite a ways down the road your going to travel. But its always your decision, your life.

[moocow]

While lately I have been regretting my decision to go to university for my Business degree, I think the GIS track may not be a bad idea. Personally, I think a decent full time job (28K to 33K range) to fund flight training is safer than taking out a loan then servicing it doing minimum wage jobs. Especially if you're enrolled into an university program that have decent job aspect, may not be a bad idea to go to flight school afterward. At least you will have an alternate skill sets to fall back on if the aviation industry goes into a down sway.

[Boeing boy]

Thanks for the replies guys.. I probably will decide to continue the way I'm headed. Moocow, how did you know I was in the GIS track?

[moocow]

Because the GIS track is the only one teach you how to handle big aerial and sat maps. I was in the GIS certificate program at Simon Fraser University. Never started it because I got accepted into Business Admin instead. Man was that a mistake.

[Boeing boy]

Why was it a mistake? Is it too hard?

[moocow]

No because I didn't do it as a Comp Sci joint major...having a hard time finding jobs with just a pure Management Info System concentration. Also, I don't know if your school covers database or SQL as part of the GIS concentration but it may be useful to learn.

[Walker]

If your going to go to Uni; learn something practical.....

note: business admin is ONLY PRACTICAL IF YOU ARE TRYING TO GET INTO LAW SCHOOL!!!!!!!!! Other than that it has very little relevance unless it is from a VERY good school and at that its really only worth while from the contacts you are going to meet.

GIS, Engineering, Accounting, Dispute Resolution, etc.... these are the things to really look into....

[KAG]

Boeing, a college diploma is fine. I have one in Aviation from a school that is no longer around, and to be honest it has never really come up. I'm now at Westjet and the emphasis is on flying experience and attitude, not how my grades were.
IMO, you do not need a degree or a diploma, and you could get a degree while flying the line through correspondence if your so inclined. Saddling yourself with a lot of debt is not a great way to start out in the industry.
Food for thought.

[Bede]

If I did it again, here would be what I'd be looking to do (in no particular order):

1) Get a BEng while doing flight training (good fall back, expensive)
2) Confed or Sault College (cheap, done quicker than Seneca or University)
3) Buy a small float plane and hire a good freelancer (build good time, not any more pricey than University, get decent float job when done)
4) Become an AME apprentice and learn to fly on the side (guaranteed AME/flying job)

I think these UWO/UW Bachelor of Useless Subject degrees combined with aviation are a huge money grab and will make your life difficult until the loan is paid off (hello Bank of Mom and Dad) and you're career is established.

[mathewc]

I did the honors specialization in geography program at UWO and then in 3rd year decided I wanted to fly. I ended up finishing the program and graduating. After getting my CPL and MIFR I found out that the aviation lifestyle wasn't for me (or at least the parts that I saw up north). I'm now back in London heading to Fanshawe for GIS and urban planning. Job prospects look much better with way higher pay.

Always have a backup plan.

[North Shore]

Get the degree, use it to get a good job, and then use that to fund a CPL. Otherwise you'll graduate with a whole pile of debt, no guarantee of a job, and no real fallback plan.

[loopa]

From research I know the airlines prefer pilots with degrees (not sure about college diplomas to be honest :S). That is the ONLY reason I'm in that program.

You may want to research a little bit more into that. While a degree is a positive sign of good study techniques, I certainly don't think that a degree would put you in any advantage over a pilot applying for the same job, with numerous type ratings on his license, and experience flying those types. Because equivalently to a degree, having numerous type ratings (unless paid for and not flown on) shows a company that you have gotten around quite a bit, have gained the trust of different companies to invest in you, and obviously know how to get and maintain a type rating. I think that, along side with a good attitude is a far more valuable and advantageous trait for an airline.

This is in no way a discouragement towards getting a degree, but I couldn't help but to say something, because you said that the only reason you are doing the program is because the airlines will regard you with advantage.

If that's the only reason, I would suggest spending that degree money on something else. I'm not sure about you, but I would think that somebody would want to get a degree because they are interested in a subject and want to become more informed/educated in it. Or perhaps it's a career path they want to pursue requiring them to get a degree. With your career being a pilot, I would say that having a superb attitude, being humble, quick to smile, and working hard would probably do you better than a degree. That's my approach to it anyway, but you have to find something that works for you

I think KAG summed it up real nice.

I have one in Aviation from a school that is no longer around, and to be honest it has never really come up. I'm now at Westjet and the emphasis is on flying experience and attitude, not how my grades were.
IMO, you do not need a degree or a diploma, and you could get a degree while flying the line through correspondence if your so inclined. Saddling yourself with a lot of debt is not a great way to start out in the industry.
Food for thought.

KAG, if I am not mistaken, I believe the impression from the airlines is that anybody with the right mindset and ability, is able to fly a 737, press the fmc buttons, start the apu, turn off the packs and fire up the engines. It seems to be the attitude of the crew, on a 4 day pairing, that would be the attention getter for an airline to hire you or not (aside from flying experience).

I wish you the best buddy, keep the persistence up! Even during toughest times

[moocow]

Walker you forgot to add Finance to your list. I also concentrated in Finance as well just don't like the industry and I can't really hack it with all those formulas (damn you stock pricing and interest rate boot strapping).

I never quite understand the university degree requirement for big iron drivers. If they think university grads somehow is smarter and able to understand flight computer operations better, I think they be wrong.

[Strega]

I'm now at Westjet and the emphasis is on flying experience and attitude

That makes me feel safe..... so if 2 pilots apply at WJA, one has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, the other does not.. WJA does not consider this.. nice... WAY TO GO WJ!

[iflyforpie]

I'm now at Westjet and the emphasis is on flying experience and attitude

That makes me feel safe..... so if 2 pilots apply at WJA, one has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, the other does not.. WJA does not consider this.. nice... WAY TO GO WJ!

I think WestJet is not thinking so much safety as liability when selecting candidates.

The pilots need to make it through ground school without the instructors killing or seriously maiming them...


ZING!!

[Shiny Side Up]

I'm now at Westjet and the emphasis is on flying experience and attitude

That makes me feel safe..... so if 2 pilots apply at WJA, one has a degree in Aeronautical Engineering, the other does not.. WJA does not consider this.. nice... WAY TO GO WJ!

He says they emphasize flying experience and attitude, not discount eduaction. Would you feel safer with a 20,000 hour pilot at the controls or a 250 hour but university degree holding one? Experience is the trump card in any hiring process, good attitude (towards safety and work ethic) are a close second, Education the tie breaker should you have to decide between two individuals with the experience and good attitude, which I might add would be a rare occurance.

If I didn't know better I'd say someone didn't get an interview despite his degree in hand....

[RVR6000]

[/quote]

He says they emphasize flying experience and attitude, not discount eduaction. Would you feel safer with a 20,000 hour pilot at the controls or a 250 hour but university degree holding one? Experience is the trump card in any hiring process, good attitude (towards safety and work ethic) are a close second, Education the tie breaker should you have to decide between two individuals with the experience and good attitude, which I might add would be a rare occurance.
[/quote]

Its funny how its always a 250 hr with a degree, how about a 6000 hr with degree compare to a 4500 hr with internal references. WJ would prefer the 4500 hr.

[Strega]

If I didn't know better I'd say someone didn't get an interview despite his degree in hand..

Funny thing is this is true.. however I have never, and will never apply at "walmart jet" or I mean westjet.....

[hoptwoit]

I found Steaga's theme song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTVpxxzb ... re=related

Oh and I said it before and I will say it again. There is a huge difference between education and intelligence.

[Shiny Side Up]

Its funny how its always a 250 hr with a degree, how about a 6000 hr with degree compare to a 4500 hr with internal references. WJ would prefer the 4500 hr.

... And an internal reference trumps experience. Am I missing something or do some not understand how people get hired? I'm not saying its a fair or unbiased process, but lets face it hiring people is a big gamble. Until they actually work for you, there's no way to tell how they'll perform. Good workers are totally worth keeping and paying them the money they deserve. Bad workers can sink your company and put you all out of business, or worse, put lives at risk. I've done my share of hiring and firing to know. The recomendation of a trusted person goes a long way and is probably the surest indication (but by no means infallible, as I've unfortunately discovered in the past) sign of a potentially good employee. Previous experience and education are good indicators that they can do the job, but previous experience is always the better sign that they've also been a good worker at that job. There's a difference between a qualified worker and a good worker - which I'll say that a lot of new pilots don't seem to understand when they're out looking for work.

Good places to work for usually use the preferences above when hiring. A good place to work will usually rather turn away business if they don't have enough good workers to meet the demand than hire on qualified workers (who may be bad employees) to fill it - which potentially in turn may lose them business. Ideally of course it would be nice to have exactly enough, but this is a rare occurance. Marketing-wise its far better to have customers complaining that its tough to get your service than to have customers complaining about your service - its a fine line.

[RVR6000]

The point I was getting to was that a degree doesn't mean anything in profession, unless your end goal is to work for Air Canada. Its all about experience and who you know.

[Shiny Side Up]

The point I was getting to was that a degree doesn't mean anything in profession, unless your end goal is to work for Air Canada. Its all about experience and who you know.

Not entirely true, but in my experience a degree in hand has to be able to be applied. I did have one applicant for an instructor position once who did have a degree in aeronautical engineering. He was a very smart fellow and knew his stuff, but alas, he also only wanted to fly - he didn't want to teach groundschool, making him of significantly less untility for me. He had a poor attitude about it as well, a real shame, he could have passed a lot of knowledge on to the students. To my knowledge he never got into instructing anywhere, but later on got a seat with a charter outfit. The point of the story here is that a piece of paper means nothing unless you have the ability and willingness to apply it.

[iflyforpie]

Oh and I said it before and I will say it again. There is a huge difference between education and intelligence.

And there is also a huge difference between intelligence and wisdom.

Education means you knew it once.

Intelligence means you know it now.

Wisdom means you know it now, and know when to use it and when not to...