Power Off 180

[lanceair]

Just a few questions about the power off 180:
1) Yesterday I practiced one and had a perfect flare with perfect approach speed (Vg) put flap down from 20-30 and then floated 500' past my TD point which was already 500' from my flare point. The temp was 30C, a little gusty, and I feel like ground effect helped screw me. What if i had retracted a little flap in this case like from 30-20? Would this be considered dodgy on a flight test?

2) Since this is about timing rate of descent and judging your touch down point, would a slipping turn to final and then a forward slip go against the thinking behind this exercise? Does a perfect circuit need be maintained or is a slant base leg ok? Could I widen out my turn from base to final? I've even heard (second hand) that one examiner says he doesnt want you slipping in this exercise.

3) Obviously TC doesn't think the Forced Approach is enough to judge a pilot candidate's ability to glide to a touchdown point and this isnt an emergency procedure so why is is part of the flight test. Just wondering....

Class 1 instructor's opinions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

[Lurch]

Class 1 instructor's opinions would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, I've only been a Class II for 5 years so I guess I'm not qualified to answer this question.

Lurch

[Big Pistons Forever]

You do not need to be a class 1 to answer the question. If you floated 1000 feet your approach speed wsa too fast. As a very rough rule of thumb each extra knot of approach speed will increase your float by about 100 feet in C150/152/172 aircraft. It is IMO never acceptable to raise the flaps in the flare during a normal landing. If field is short and you are floating past the touchdown point go around. Raising the flap is an emergency manoever for forced appraoches or no go around strips. You can get away with it in litttle bugsmashers but you will will bend some expensive metal if you tried it in a higher performance aircraft.

[Tim]

1) like BPF said, dont raise the flaps in the flare. if you only have a touch of extra speed try letting it down (i.e. land a little flat - dont PUSH it down though) and then retract the flaps to help dump your lift so you dont pop up again....that wouldnt score you a lot of beuty points on a flight test and you might want to try it with an instructor first...but it shouldnt get you a 1 if it happens on FT

2) fly your cct however you see fit to get over your flare point at flare high. if youre flying something like a da-20 force yourself to stay a little lower than your instinct tells you and KEEP YOUR APPCH SPEED STABLE. if youre in a 172, keep a bit of extra alt and use full flap and or a fwd slip at the end. as you get more proficient, those options will be used less and less because you`ll know what the `picture`looks like on the right glide path.

3) i got nothin

good luck

[Shiny Side Up]

2) Since this is about timing rate of descent and judging your touch down point, would a slipping turn to final and then a forward slip go against the thinking behind this exercise? Does a perfect circuit need be maintained or is a slant base leg ok? Could I widen out my turn from base to final? I've even heard (second hand) that one examiner says he doesnt want you slipping in this exercise.

Do whatever you got to do to get it where you want it. If this means slipping then slip your heart out. There is no requirement to maintain a nice circuit. If the examiner can't penalize you for slipping unless said slip itself is conducted wrong. Personally when I demonstrate this excersise I avoid using the flaps and prefer to slip to control the descent. I save the flaps for my last trick to play.

Practice this excersise over and over.

edit:

The only answer I've really gotten in regards to 3) is that the forced approach excersise they want more as a demonstration of your ability to handle an emergency situation while flying the airplane. The Precision 180 is purely a demonstration of your flying skills - remember that. Too many students (and instructors) make the mistake of playing the precision 180 excersise as an emergency excersise rather than a flying excersise.

[Bushav8er]

The secret to a good landing - a STABLE approach, this includes leaving flaps alone.

[Hedley]

1) sometimes you can float on pavement on very hot days because the sun bakes the pavement, creating a very localized thermal. Retracting flap before the tires are on the ground is considered extremely poor form.

2) personally, if I saw I turned too soon, and was too high, I would first gently reduce my bank to open up the 180 to travel farther. Nowhere in this:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... 8-2271.htm

does it say that you have to maintain a constant angle of bank, or that you can't sideslip. But my first choice would be to open up, then sideslip, which should still result in a pass, despite your examiner's personal preferences.

3) No one know why Transport does anything but personally, I like the power off 180, because it's a forced approach right to touchdown - not like the flight test version, which is always called off at 500 AGL. A power-off flare with lots of flap is good practice!

PS I'm a class 1 instructor and class 1 aerobatic instructor, but that plus a buck will get you a cup of coffee.

[Big Pistons Forever]

lanceair

re your point 3. I think adding the power off 180 to the CPL flight test is the best idea TC has had in many years. All the rest of the flight test is simply a rehash of the PPL test to very slightly higher standards. Surely a CPL should be required to demonstrate that he/she has more stick and rudder skills than a slightly better than average 50- 60 hr PPL ? I think TC should follow the FAA lead and require chandelles and lazy 8's on the CPL flight test.

Just out of curiosity does anybody know what the test fail rate for the power off 180 is ?

[Hedley]

does anybody know what the test fail rate for the power off 180 is ?

I am told incredibly high - probably because people don't practice it enough, because they fly at busy airports with aircraft always ahead of them on the circuit, that they can't legally cut off - that's a CARs violation.

I tell comm candidates that they need to travel to a quiet uncontrolled airport to practice their power-off 180's but they don't think practice is a good idea, I guess.

[Shiny Side Up]

Its the highest item for failing CPL flight tests, at least according to the stats I have for the P/N region for the last year. Out of 140 flight tests 10 were assessed "1" on the excersise or an 8.2% failure rate. Ties for second place were Short field/Softfield landings, Enroute procedure and radio nav each for 4 failures out of the 140. The power off 180 was also responsible for the lion's share of the "2" assesments on flight tests where 29 out of the 140 applicants scored or 23.7%. Oddly enough, the steep turn takes second place for scoring "2" at 20.5% of the applicants - people are doing poor steep turns, but not failing at them - it also had the least ammount of "4" assesments.

[skypirate88]

This doesn't really answer the question at hand but just remember that you don't always have to make the approach a complete 180 degrees.
"The candidate is expected to close the throttle and initiate the glide on the downwind leg abeam the specified touchdown point but, if traffic does not permit, the gliding descent from circuit height may be delayed until later in the circuit"- TC Flight test guide
Knowing this would have definitely helped save some time on my ride

[Geko]

I tell comm candidates that they need to travel to a quiet uncontrolled airport to practice their power-off 180's but they don't think practice is a good idea, I guess.

This is exactly what I did. I went out to Qualicum Beach on a Monday morning and practiced.

[Hedley]

It is an ongoing mystery for me as to why people think they should be able to do something without practicing it first.

Do they think it's trivial? If so, why can't they do it, then?

Is it some kind of 21st century instant gratification/entitlement cultural thing I don't get?

[lanceair]

Thanks for all of your replies. They were very helpful. @Lurch: no disrespect, i was hoping that Class 1/Flight Test Examiners would give their insight.

[iflyforpie]

One thing that makes light planes float forever is trying to maintain an approach speed right down to the runway. Remember, it is approach (or glide) speed, not landing speed.

Once the tarmac disappears under the nose, you should be controlling altitude with attitude and letting the airspeed bleed off--especially if you aren't using flaps.

[Hedley]

Try this in a light trainer: maintain your Vref religiously until you cross the runway threshold, then power all the way off. Learn to flare with no power.

Don't become dependent upon the use of power during the flare, especially trying to fish for a greaser - that's a habit that pisses me off. It chews up a lot of runway.

Keep it straight, on the centerline.

[Bede]

It is an ongoing mystery for me as to why people think they should be able to do something without practicing it first.

I like trying new stuff and seeing if I can do a good job at it using the skills I already have. Think of a FI candidate doing a lazy 8. There's a good chance that they have never done it (because I didn't do their CPL), but they should be able to put something decent together in the air after they are told what to do on the ground using their existing flying skills.

To the OP, in my opinion, doing a slip/slipping turn is good form. Never retract flaps once they're down; use slips to lose altitude. If someone did a perfect circuit, with no flaps and no slips, and landed at the TD point, that's not as good as it seems; you're one wind gust away from landing short in the grass.