128.27 yyz

[C206Pilot]

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[cyeg66]

Ouch! That'll leave a mark.... Training in progress, perhaps? I dunno.

[C206Pilot]

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[Pratt X 3]

Not hard to figure out where it happened as there are only 2 airports that have a control tower and use 128.27 as the arrival/departure frequency. With the time of the occurrence, it was easy to see the 2 aircraft involved using Flightaware.com and that was some fancy vectors to final. At least it wasn't as bad as this:

(I kid, they actually filed that route.)

[coffeelover]

I guess youve never made a mistake and had a controller be gracious about it eh?

training was occuring at the time. The instructor actually jumped in to 'give you attitude'. Suprised you didnt hear the change in voice.

so s*&t happens, you got vectored for 8 miles instead of 4 or 5. sequencing faster a/c such as a pc12 behind slow training flights can be a pretty tough thing to learn (especially when you have 2 months experince like the controller that was training!) When you give an approach clearance to one of these trainers you are basically blocking the airport for about 10 minutes, and a lot of the standards we can use between sucessive arrivals are not allowed when one of the aircraft involved is a training flight! Airports like CYXU, CYKF, CYHM host multiple training flights a day, and sure it sucks to be the one that gets delayed, but unfortuantely the controller was correct... it is first come first served. If we delayed that training flight for you, they might have been holding for another 30 minutes while other itinerant traffic goes in. Full proceedure approaches are hard to guage because you never know when the a/c is going to start the proceedure turn, how long it will be, how much they will drift...etc.

Anyways, the proffesional thing to do in any situation like that is to simply ask for a phone # then call it when you are on the ground for explanation. Unprofessional things inclue 1)chirping the controller 2)making another controller busier while you complain about previous controller 3)going online for a sob session 4) and this is the biggest one - assuming you know everything that is going on! I should really start posting all the idiot things I see pilots do every day. I'm relatively sure that if you called the supervisors desk, or the shift manager, you would have liked the explaination that you got, and would have walked away armed with a bit more knowledge of ATC that you could use down the road (or use to educate other pilots)

Look, I'm not saying you didnt get delayed... and I'm not saying that the trainee made the best descisions, but you were victim of circumstance not some malicious controller like you are making out. I listened to the tapes, I didnt think anything the controller said was out of line.

<3 A pilot turned Controller.

ps. When I was training I made a bad choice and ended up vectoring a 727 prob 30 miles out of his way.... yeah.

[C206Pilot]

ok well, we had the owners of the airplane on board and were just trying to get them on the ground. also, why not just tell us there was training taking place? the reason i got so annoyed was because we were about 3 miles away from having the field visual and were never told to call it in sight. we simply just started going the opposite direction of the airport. whatever.....

and lastly, when offered the phone number by tower (to complain), we elected not to.....

[BUDDY]

Um ya...turning in the completely other direction from the airport is called a "downwind leg".

Also, if you're flying a PC12, aren't you trying to build as many hours as you can to get that coveted Jet Job?? Seems like it might actually be beneficial for you

BUDDY

[Main Gear]

ok well, we had the owners of the airplane on board and were just trying to get them on the ground.

What the H*ll does that have to do with it???

I'm pretty sure every passenger wants to get on the ground.

[Braun]

No matter who is in the plane if you're number 2 you're number 2. I don't know the situation and don't want to start a pilot vs. controller debate but we all make mistakes especially in training and if you were really unhappy with the service you should of called the number...that's what it is there for! Despite what you may think we DO want to get better and offer a better service and if you feel there is something we can do to improve it's a phone call away. Granted, sequencing aircraft with trainers is a B**** often as they are usually slow aircraft (i.e. C172, C150, PA27 etc...) and our rules of separation change as stated by coffeelover.

[parrot_head]

and were never told to call it in sight

Do you have to be told to put the landing gear down too?

Being able to see the airport doesn't get you fast tracked to the front of the line. If it's busy, or required for spacing, you are still going to get vectored to final and you are still going to have to follow somebody.

[SteveMcCroskey]

Call the number you were given! And when you get it, ask for the phone number for the idiot at Nav Canada headquarters who continues to put rediculous rules in effect. This 'tard has been interpreting CARS in such a way that it makes the controllers job harder (which, in turn, delays aircraft requiring a clearance), much the same way you were delayed because of a training flight. For years, controllers were able to sequence itinerant aircraft with IFR training aircraft with little or no delays to either...safely. Suddenly, "Mr. I Better Come Up With Something Good To Keep My Cushy Job" decided that the methods being used contravened CARS (in his opinion) and controllers were told to stop. This "Genius" is also putting alot of restrictions in effect for visual approaches as well. So he's not done yet.

If you don't call, no one will have any idea of the consequences of this twits interpretations. A phone call does not necessarily get somebody in trouble (which, hopefully, was the reason you did not call), but it does get your concerns logged and hopefully noticed.

Nav Canada is very good at sweeping things under the carpet!

[gustind]

Not to discriminate but why are there three "different" people with only ONE post responding to this topic. Your first post in the AVCANADA forums and you are already stirring the pot. On top of that the accounts were all made within a day or two of each other.

It's almost as bad as when someone got caught for making duplicate accounts and supporting their own opinions in various arguments across the board. Embarrassing actually....

[Braun]

A lot of people don't post and just lurk...I don't think anyone had intentions to stir s***

[C206Pilot]

gustind,

are you implying i created these other accounts to "support" my post? omg, no dude....

parrot head, are you stupid? how much experience do you have? it's normal for a controller to say call the field so both you and him are on the same page that he wants to clear you for a visual and get rid of you so you can go and land the airplane and not be vectored for 15 mins away from the airport for a seminole training. you guys just don't get it. this never happens in the states. navcanada holds your hand way too much. i just can't believe 15 minutes was added to our ETA because of one seminole. what a joke.

and jackass, when you have the owners of the plane on board and one of them is a pilot and starts grilling you about all of the vectoring and what happened, etc....you'd care too. we don't burn much fuel, but we burn more at low level than a seminole. the controller who was overseeing the training should've told the trainee to ask us to call the field so he could get rid of us and focus on the seminole. not use us for "real world" vectoring practice which is EXACTLY what it was.

you controllers should take a trip down to florida one day and see how they mix training and IFR aircraft down there.....

[NJ]

There are different rules for aircraft not intending to land at the airport. If you are a normal itinerant IFR Aircraft, you are cleared for the approach, once you are in the zone, talking to tower and in VMC that's it, no more work required by the IFR unit. If you are an IFR aircraft coming to an airport and not intending to land, it shuts down the airport until the trainer has executed the missed and initial departure separation is achieved with the next departure to go. If the trainer is VFR it's a whole lot easier to fit in (don't trade paint and runway separation).

In the states, they use a whole lot more visual separation of arrivals and departures. It is starting to be tested in major towers in Canada. That should speed up trainers a little bit, but as long as they are IFR, it still won't be as smooth as straight departures and arrivals.

[parrot_head]

Wow, C206pilot, you're pretty good, you've actually answered all your questions yourself.

the controller who was overseeing the training should've told the trainee to ask us to call the field so he could get rid of us

You don't have to be asked to report the field in sight, personally I think that

navcanada holds your hand way too much

and that most pilots are more than capable of communicating with controllers without being asked first.

omg, im SOOOOOOOO tired of pilots constantly whining and whining. this industry is filled with more f&%*ing babies than i've ever seen in my life

You took the words right out of my mouth.

parrot head, are you stupid? how much experience do you have?

No, i'm not stupid, and I can just about guarantee that I have more flight experience than you, and have been controlling/flying long enough to know that the arrogant tone of your posts probably comes thru in your radio communications. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the next time you fly into this airport that you are vectored to follow two seminoles, and a C-172.

[SteveMcCroskey]

I am probably not allowed to post this because I will now have a grand total of 2 posts...but...

Once again, if you don't like the service, call the number!

Or...if you don't want to be vectored behind other IFR traffic, cancel the IFR.

If you cannot cancel IFR (weather or SOP's) then wait your turn, get on the ground and call the number.

If you think the Americans can do so much better, it is because they are allowed to. Their bosses have looked at the rules and have come up with procedures that allow traffic to be separated with closer minimums than in Canada. The dinosaurs at Nav Canada HQ in Ottawa have not been so liberal with their interpretations.

If you are waiting for Canadian controllers to bend the rules to accomodate you, well, don't hold your breath. I am not putting my job on the line to accomodate you. That's the truth.

If you want things to change, you, the users of ANS system must be heard. Nav Canada management will not listen to the "unwashed heathens" that actually control air traffic in this country.

[icewa]

Holy crap.

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

If you are waiting for Canadian controllers to bend the rules to accomodate you, well, don't hold your breath. I am not putting my job on the line to accomodate you. That's the truth.

If you want things to change, you, the users of ANS system must be heard. Nav Canada management will not listen to the "unwashed heathens" that actually control air traffic in this country.

Well said.

Here lies the typical Canadian attitude in ALL aspects towards ANY government level or a governing body. 99.99% of ALL Canadians accepts and takes whatever the rule makers give them.
It's never going to change because people manifest what is before them.

"Every vast & mighty kingdom have imbeciles as citizens"
~Alexander The Great

[Braun]

If you are waiting for Canadian controllers to bend the rules to accomodate you, well, don't hold your breath. I am not putting my job on the line to accomodate you. That's the truth.

If you want things to change, you, the users of ANS system must be heard. Nav Canada management will not listen to the "unwashed heathens" that actually control air traffic in this country.

Well said.

Here lies the typical Canadian attitude in ALL aspects towards ANY government level or a governing body. 99.99% of ALL Canadians accepts and takes whatever the rule makers give them.
It's never going to change because people manifest what is before them.

"Every vast & mighty kingdom have imbeciles as citizens"
~Alexander The Great

Are you a controller? Because if you are you would surely know we don't just sit down and accept what rules are instated if they don't make sense. We do complain, we do suggest, we do pressure but alas if management is to hard headed to make changes brought to them by the controllers that is another issue. Like stated before just because a rule doesn't make sense doesn't mean I don't follow it but it also doesn't mean I don't voice the fact that is rediculous and try to improve it.

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

Are you a controller? Because if you are you would surely know we don't just sit down and accept what rules are instated if they don't make sense. We do complain, we do suggest, we do pressure but alas if management is to hard headed to make changes brought to them by the controllers that is another issue. Like stated before just because a rule doesn't make sense doesn't mean I don't follow it but it also doesn't mean I don't voice the fact that is rediculous and try to improve it.

You are but one person. We need an army of people like you (& I) to be proactive and not reactive to government/management imposed rules & regs. Beit in aviation or general tax reform and government spending. However...gathering the troops to take this country back from those that rape it and make US pay for it...is never going to happen because of the mindset that is degrading this country from what it was...to what is will be for those that live here. That's my point.
...nothing more. nothing less.

btw: I'm not ATC I just turn 15 and working on getting my commercials

[cyeg66]

btw: I'm not ATC I just turn 15 and working on getting my commercials

Hardy har.

Canayjian ATC sucks. What can be done? Let us revisit how the yanks are great and we're not.... Question: Does that rule apply to yank pilots, too? Sometimes, I wonder.

Whoa, I'm way off topic.

p.s. Whining at the trench pig level will change nothing since the walls of NavCan's fortress on Metcalfe in Ottuhwa appear to be so thick (or is it the craniums...?).

[OhKiE DoHkIe]

Canayjian ATC sucks....

Right off the bat...you lost my attention.

However next time try to redirect that angst and disdain towards something productive like the next "HST" type of new tax...it (may) make a difference.