Restrict Flight Training to Gov, funded programs?

[slam525i]

How about I go to your employer and tell him I will do your job for free for the next 5 years?

Go ahead. If you can do my job better than I can, for less money than I can, you deserve it more than I do. I'm sure you can't. (I don't fly to make my living.) I'm also sure the professional pilots on this board aren't afraid of you knocking on their boss's door to take their jobs either.

Hint: Don't accuse others of not knowing basic economics when it is obvious that you don't. Think through you arguments carefully. Don't accuse others of not being able to read when you cannot or did not. Learn the difference between "insure" and "ensure". Learn when to use apostrophes. Learn to see from other people's perspective. It is difficult for others to take you seriously when you make so many mistakes in your posts that you appear to not care about grammar. An occasional one is allowable but dozens of them show a lack of care.

You're still young as a professional pilot with 400 hours; work hard, but relax a little. The world isn't out to get you. The 200 hour kids below aren't trying to sabotage your career with their willingness to work for less. With age and experience, you'll see things differently and realize its about you, not about them. When you started this thread, you said you were seeking opinions and wanted to learn, not argue, right? Well, then shut up and learn from the others. Ask them to clarify but don't tell them they're wrong. As someone who has taught students at all levels of university, nothing makes me happier than to have a student question what I am saying, but nothing makes me more angry than a student who questions me but then won't listen to the explanation and just insists they're right.

[loopa]

restrict flight training to selected few gov. funded colleges and universities

As someone who trained from old-school flying clubs, very few of which still exist, this is precisely the kind of crap that is killing off GA. I totally agree that anyone flying airliners should be well trained at a large organization with the adequate resources. That's also why airlines have in house training or contract out to large organizations, but is that necessary for PPL and CPL? The licenses we carry means that we should be able to operate the aircraft safely, not necessarily well, but safely. The rest of it is up to us and the people in charge of hiring. If we limit flight training to big organizations, we might as well eliminate GA.

Flying at a private FTU, also offers the ability to choose your own instructor. You do not choose your future co-workers. We do not need Madonna's in our industry.

I paid for my training; I chose my own instructor. I chose not to continue with an instructor who was insisted on landing flat to avoid tail-strikes on a Cessna. If you insist that one shouldn't choose one's own instructor, then by the same logic, you shouldn't have a choice of which college to attend either.

Also, why in the world, would we allow foreign nationalities to train here at home? All they do is support instructors in a over saturated industry. I would hardly consider Moncton flying College a college, at Moncton money talks! Most of their business evolves around training Chinese pilots for Air China and other Asian airlines which do not care about safety. They offer Chinese ATPL's with ultra low hours. I feel like they are slapping the industry right in the face. Most instructors will instruct who ever is willing to pay! Then those foreign nationalities go back home, work for cheap money, and take away jobs that should go to properly trained hard working pilots. Those poorly trained pilots become FO's on a 737 at 300 hours with a Chinese ATPL, while instructors with 600-700 hours can barely move into a PC-12? That must be a joke! Good luck getting FO on a 737 in Canada with less then 2000 hours.

All they do is support instructors in an over saturated industry, which is very true. They bring foreign money to spend on locals who would otherwise be unemployed or not flying. That doesn't even take into account their living expenses, basically injecting foreign money into our economy. How is that a remotely bad thing?
"Then those foreign nationalities go back home, work for cheap money, and take away jobs that should go to properly trained hard working pilots." You mean take away jobs from ex-pats? Why should they give jobs to foreigners who earn their money and take it out of the country? And what authority do you have to tell other countries' governments and airlines what their standards should be?

College of Pilots

In terms of serving the interests of the airline pilots, there are plenty of airline pilots' unions. In terms of serving the interest of GA pilots, we have COPA/AOPA. A College of Pilots as you desire only serves to limit the entrance into the industry. Picture yourself on the other side, wanting to get in, qualified to do so, but disallowed due to quotas. How will you feel about such an organization then?


Look, I understand you want to be a big airline pilot. I understand you spent money on a college but there aren't enough jobs to go around. You're upset that anyone can be a pilot and there are people out there competing for jobs who aren't as qualified as you are. The problem, honestly, isn't them; it's you. If you want that big airline job, you have to work for it. You have to get more hours. You may even find yourself instructing at one of those no-quality-control little FTUs that you so detest, maybe even instruct a few of those damned foreign pilots. Perhaps, you're more of a man of principles, and you'll refuse to instruct at little FTUs and spend the rest of your life tilting at windmills and complaining about how you couldn't get a job flying and now you have to make a living doing ________.

I'm sure with age, your perspectives will change. Until then, I would recommend you work hard. The answer to you getting a job isn't to limit the competition; it's to make yourself better than the competition.

+++++++1!!!!

+2

I would also like to add that having a few type ratings under your belt and having experience flying different aircrafts also shows that you have good study habits, and more so than a degree, because it shows the employer that you have the study techniques and habits oriented for this industry. Somebody may be god at calculus and finding derivatives of Y and know the secant of 62 degrees, but their skills in remembering what are memory items and checklist items may be outright horrendous. Or they may have the lack of using procedures, or as already mentioned, may have a dangerous attitude in the flight deck because they sense their degree gives them a level of superiority. I am doing my degree because I am interested in the subject and want to learn more about it.

In principle I hear what you're trying to say, and if I understand your post correctly you want to find a way to weed out idiots, and only attract the brightest.

While this idea seems like a dream, like mentioned, don't use the current state of the industry as a reason to complain that so and so who couldn't land a a C172 is flying a King Air while I'm stuck dinking around on a C172. Just work hard, ask questions, don't be afraid to say no, and voice your opinion. Just make sure your word isn't the "final" word and that you leave room for learning and correction! Otherwise you should hang your pilot coat, hat, and epaulets (i hope you don't wear them as an instructor), and look for another job. Even the people we refer to as the best of the best learn something new. That's in my opinion how they got to be the good ones we look up to!

All the best to you buddy!

[LousyFisherman]

Also, some of you cant read. In total 3 separate posts members of this forum openly compared us to bus drivers. Called it easy, and some even compared it to a plumber!

Pilots in no way should be compared to plumbers or professional drivers. Pilots are not as well trained, not as heavily regulated, and do not have the responsibilities of either.

However, as bushhopper demonstrates, they certainly have more than their fair share of arrogance. The disrespect shown to drivers and plumbers is appalling.

For those who would like to dispute the above facts, bus drivers in large cities, ON AVERAGE, are responsible for the lives of 500-600 people a day. Plumbers have a longer training period, longer apprenticeship and have every single piece of new construction work reviewed by someone else,

LF

[Big Pistons Forever]

This thread is a good lesson for all the wannabe's out there. Aviation is one of the toughest, most unfair professions going. To succeed over the long haul you have to love flying to a degree that is probably irrational. Bushhopper is like many new CPL's I have met. Flying for them has less to do about those intangable rewards that only a good day in cockpit can give and the experiences that only the act of flight can provide.....instead it is more about having fun, the percieved status of being a "pilot" and the expectation that they will be recognized and rewarded for their "hard work" and the expense of getting their ratings.

Aviation is a cruel mistress. To succeed you have to really want it and there will be many disappointments before you land a good paying steady gig (a process that took me 12 years). My feeling from conducting straw polls and seeing the flight training industry close up over many years is that give or take, only about 1 in 5 people who finished their CPL's with the intention of flying for a living will be employed in a flying job 10 years later. IMO most decided that they were unwilling/unable to make the sacrifices and and put the level of effort required to last over the long haul.

my 02 cents

Bushhopper it is time to stop your whiny rant and ask yourself some deeper questions of why you became a pilot and what you are willing to do to progress in this very demanding industry. Of one thing I am absolutely certain, There will always be be more pilots than jobs

[beast]

[quote]At the top, people make a pretty decent living, at the bottom, less so, but you are in an apprenticeship role.. along the way, less motivated, or skilled people are winnowed out.. what's the problem?[/quote]

The problem is that the jobs at the "top" are starting to become eroded by the increasing size and scope of the "bottom"

For example, Jetsgo - because of an abundant supply of pilots willing to pay to fly jet aircraft, they were able to pose a serious threat to established carriers that comprise the "top" of which you speak

I'll definitely get flamed for this one, but Westjet was initially a financial success for largely the same reason - pilots willing to work for stock instead of a professional salary, competing with companies who "had" to pay their pilots How could they compete with that? Of course, things are different now, but the damage was done

This profession, like others, needs to start enforcing regulations to protect its own members - A doctor can't set up shop across the street from another, and work for free to undercut him - that kind of thing will get one the boot real quick

[bushhopper]

thank those who made intelligent comments, I also thank those who protect and support our industry. Not to long ago over 70% who voted agreed they would join College of Pilots.

I never seen a profession where professionals from the profession in subject lack respect, and lack support for self preservation in their own industry.

[bushhopper]

College of Pilots could do the following:

Regulate bond training.
Prevent unfair practice.
Prevent OVER saturation
Prevent unsafe working conditions
Insure respectful benefits for you and your family
Insure quality control
Insure safety standards are met.

And Many other.

College of pilots is not out to destroy our own living hood!

[slam525i]

Don't you dare attack me...

You know what? I'm done. We've tried hard to explain things to you, albeit some with more tact than others, but most of us have wished you well to this point. I'm not going to try and talk sense into this topic anymore and I suggest the rest of the sane people here do the same. I will say this though:

I hope you never PIC anything I'm flying in. Your unwillingness to learn and consider other opinions is dangerous, both in life and in the cockpit.

[Hedley]

This thread is the best evidence that I have ever seen, that pilots be required to take a course in basic economics.

Hint: water doesn't run uphill.

[bushhopper]

Don't you dare attack me...

You know what? I'm done. We've tried hard to explain things to you, albeit some with more tact than others, but most of us have wished you well to this point. I'm not going to try and talk sense into this topic anymore and I suggest the rest of the sane people here do the same. I will say this though:

I hope you never PIC anything I'm flying in. Your unwillingness to learn and consider other opinions is dangerous, both in life and in the cockpit.

I have already considered and agreed on many topics.

Structured Program vs Private FTU = Sure, I agree, it all depends on the personality, its not fair to to limit training to structured programs.
Either way both provide quality training.

Limiting the amount of CPL's, can limit the opportunity for many who wish to become pilots. I understand, by controlling the saturation, if not done right, we could harm our industry.

Those who are willing to go the extra mile, work harder, work for cheaper will most likely make it faster and further in our industry.

[Hedley]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

[Strega]

a plumber receives more education

How many hours of classroom education are needed by law to obtain an ATPL?

How many exams does one need to pass in order to obtain an ATPL?

[bushhopper]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Hedley, Please tell me, why did our government raise the minimum down payment for your new house from 5% to 10%? Why did they pump the mortgage rate up by 1%? To prevent people from buying to many homes, people who cant afford it. Canadian government is trying to prevent a House market crash like in the states. Canada made it harder for people to take out a mortgage and buy homes, and potentially lose their employment, causing massive home foreclosure. They are afraid, our economy is not stable enough to support the massive amount of debt people are willing to take on. Please show me, where the definition of free market, and supply and demand fits in this situation?

Why are people willing to spend more then they can afford?

Communism does not work.
Dictatorship does not work.
Capitalism does not work
Democracy does not work. Two wolfs and a sheep, voting on what to have to for dinner.
Free market does not work.

Supply and demand was regulated by the Canadian government to prevent a housing market crash. Supply and Demand was never suppose to work based on free market. Entire worlds supply and demand of oil is heavily regulated by the oil industry.

Economics 101 will show you, control is the key to a stable future.

[bushhopper]

a plumber receives more education

How many hours of classroom education are needed by law to obtain an ATPL?

How many exams does one need to pass in order to obtain an ATPL?

# An applicant for the ATPL must hold a Group 1 Instrument Rating.
# 70% on the Transport Canada written examinations—two must be written. The first examination (although order of writing is not important) is entitled SAMRA, and it concerns the subjects of Meteorology, Radio Aids to Navigation, and Flight Planning. The second examination is entitled SARON, which concerns Air Law, Aeroplane Operation and General Navigation.6
# 1500 hours flight experience,7 of which 250 hours must be Pilot-in-command (100 of the 250 hours may be as Pilot-in-command under supervision [CAR 421.11]), including 100 hours cross-country flight time (which must include 25 night hours).
# 100 hours night flight time as Pilot-in-command or co-pilot.
# 200 hours cross-country time as co-pilot in a two-crew aeroplane, or an additional 100 hours cross-country time as Pilot-in-command in addition to the above specified.
# 75 hours instrument flight time of which a maximum of 25 hours may be acquired in an approved instrument ground trainer

1500 hours / by average 400 hours per year, most can pull of in the bush. It would take almost 4 years, plus 2 years to earn your CPL. So 6 years, before you can apply for a ATPL.Plus 1 to 2 years before you can complete the extra 500 hours of ground school. Not to mention, to earn your 1300 hours, you most likely will have to move out to Shit hole lake, work with no time off, in bush pretty much 30 days straight, 7 days a week. barely have a chance to ever see your girl friend during the season. Not to mention your living poverty, since most of your pay check goes to paying your debt, and the rest to living expenses. Average cost of earning your CPL with a IFR and Multi cost $60,000 CDN. I even seen $90,000 CDN. I personally was lucky to keep it under $26,000 CDN. Hey, I will work 7 days a week for the entire summer from sunset to sundown with no over time. But dont tell me a plumber requires more education, time commitment and passion then we do. Get your facts straight.

Plumber requirement:

Decide whether your goal is to join the local plumber's union. If so, apply for a four-year apprenticeship, which involves approximately 2,000 hours of on-the-job training and at least 216 hours of classroom work. But be aware that only 1 out of 20 applicants is accepted to the program.

2000 hours working near you home, you get to come house every day, see your family, you get weekends off, and paid over time and paid during the training between 10 to 15 dollars per hour. To complete 2000 hours, working 40 days a week, 51 weeks a year, you will be done in 1 year! With 0 debt related to your education.

To become a plumber you require 216 hours. 534hours less, then you do for an ATPL.

[Strega]

The term of apprenticeship for a plumber is 4 years (four 12-month periods) including a minimum of 1500 hours of on-the-job training and 8 weeks of technical training each year.

funny how its easy to "sway" the facts....

So in reality its more like 8000 hrs of working over 4 years to become a plumber, with 32 weeks of classroom training...

How many hours or weeks of classroom training do you NEED to take in order to obtain an ATPL?
you never answered this..

Oh and for the record,, I have only taken 5 exams, yes only 5 exams to obtain my ATPL, all or which are a literal JOKE when it comes to exams..... how many exams do you have to take in your average university class? oh thats right, 99% of pilots dont ever go to university so they wouldnt know..

Once again the "exams" are:
1)Private,
2)Commercial,
3)Inrat,
4)Samron,
5)Saron,

[McJagger]

what im reading is that it is too hard for you and you want the government to make it easier....

when the going get tough, the tough get going.. or they say they are tough and bitch about how tough it is.

in your position you should be spending your time competing for your first gig, not disrespecting the people who you will need to grovel to for your first job.

I think that more important than a college degree is a personality workup.. you are proving this nicely.

[bushhopper]

Manitoba:

Certification for plumbers is recommended but not compulsory for plumbers in Manitoba

British Columbia:

Unlike many of his or her U.S. counterparts a plumber in B.C. does not require a license. However the trade does require C of Q certification training or to be a Registered Apprentice to work to work on pressurized systems. This includes residential, industrial, commercial and institutional systems. A plumber will be called in to install, repair and certify residential kitchens and bathroom remodeling projects. They cannot, however, work on refrigeration.

Ontario:

Apprentices in the plumbing trade serve a 9,000-hour training period with 720 of these hours in the classroom. Admission to the program requires the applicant o have at least a Grade 10 education and be at least 16 years of age.

Why? They did this to control over saturation of the market. No wonder why it cost over 80$ per hour to have someone fix your cooper pipe.

I could go on and give you example of other provinces.

Ontario is the only one that requires a license.

http://www.handycanadian.com/contractor ... ntario.asp

In the states, they only require 2000 hours as I showed you before.

The term of apprenticeship for a plumber is 4 years (four 12-month periods) including a minimum of 1500 hours of on-the-job training and 8 weeks of technical training each year.

funny how its easy to "sway" the facts....

So in reality its more like 8000 hrs of working over 4 years to become a plumber, with 32 weeks of classroom training...

How many hours or weeks of classroom training do you NEED to take in order to obtain an ATPL?
you never answered this..

Oh and for the record,, I have only taken 5 exams, yes only 5 exams to obtain my ATPL, all or which are a literal JOKE when it comes to exams..... how many exams do you have to take in your average university class? oh thats right, 99% of pilots dont ever go to university so they wouldnt know..

Once again the "exams" are:
1)Private,
2)Commercial,
3)Inrat,
4)Samron,
5)Saron,

[bushhopper]

Oh and for the record,, I have only taken 5 exams, yes only 5 exams to obtain my ATPL, all or which are a literal JOKE when it comes to exams..... how many exams do you have to take in your average university class? oh thats right, 99% of pilots dont ever go to university so they wouldnt know..

"swaying" the facts to prove your own point.

[Strega]

I wrote over 80 to 90 tests, and over 25 exams when I went through the structured program

Can you show me the CAR that requires this?

I hate to burst your bubble, but 5 exams in "commercial groundschool 101" dont count.

Oh and another tidbit,, the only reason outfits like seneca (I bow to thee) conduct aviation training is because they make $$$$ doing it.... no other reason......

[bushhopper]

Weather it is structured or mom and pop. I would like to see higher TC or ICAO standards.

[Strega]

The program does. They do it, to insure higher quality standards. Cars does not require it. Thats ONE OF MY main points in this thread

So why not change the standards? and not involve outfits such as seneca (once again I bow to thee) to spend my hard earned tax dollars?

[bushhopper]

There are many other ways we can save money. Like the gun registry, 2 billion $ wasted. G20 summit 2 billion wasted. War in Afghanistan? Report put together in late 2008 estimated Canada's involvement from 2002 until the end of our commitment in 2011 will cost around $18 billion, with another $7 billion in incremental costs such as taking care of veterans and rebuilding equipment.

I don't know boys. I do not want to offend anyone. This is a very delicate subject.

[Shiny Side Up]

This thread delivers!

This thread is the best evidence that I have ever seen, that pilots be required to take a course in basic economics.

Hint: water doesn't run uphill.

Indeed, perhaps some should a do a bit of study into socioeconomics while they're at it. This bit is especially is rich:

Communism does not work.
Dictatorship does not work.
Capitalism does not work
Democracy does not work. Two wolfs and a sheep, voting on what to have to for dinner.
Free market does not work.

So we're left with what? A fascist oligarchy?

]Don't you dare attack me. Bushhopper this, bushhopper that. Are some of you just that childish or just so stupid? Maybe your right? Plumber has more brains then some of you.

Economics 101 will show you, control is the key to a stable future.

Wow, you're really going to go all the way with this. I'd bet you'd do well pressing your point home in large rallys.

[bushhopper]

We will not figure out the answer to which economic system works in this thread. So far all systems have failed. United States is a perfect example of capitalism failing. Russia-socialism, German-Dictatorship, democracy does not work because people who have the $ are able to sway public opinion via media and push their own agenda.

In my opinion we need a mix. Take the best from every single system, and implemented into a new type. Same would go for regulating our industry.

This thread delivers!

This thread is the best evidence that I have ever seen, that pilots be required to take a course in basic economics.

Hint: water doesn't run uphill.

Indeed, perhaps some should a do a bit of study into socioeconomics while they're at it. This bit is especially is rich:

Communism does not work.
Dictatorship does not work.
Capitalism does not work
Democracy does not work. Two wolfs and a sheep, voting on what to have to for dinner.
Free market does not work.

So we're left with what? A fascist oligarchy?

]Don't you dare attack me. Bushhopper this, bushhopper that. Are some of you just that childish or just so stupid? Maybe your right? Plumber has more brains then some of you.

Economics 101 will show you, control is the key to a stable future.

Wow, you're really going to go all the way with this. I'd bet you'd do well pressing your point home in large rallys.

[SuperchargedRS]

The program does. They do it, to insure higher quality standards. Cars does not require it. This is ONE OF MY main points in this thread. Education is not equal according to what your saying. Same would go for Plumbers from Ontario saying a Plumber from BC or Alberta is also no equally educated. 9000 hours on work, and 720 in class vs plumber in BC with 0.

Get my point? Lack of proper standards.

We both know, TC only requires 7 hours for a Float Rating. No one in the right mind would ever let someone fly with 7 hours. Most float companies wont let you fly unless the Chef Pilot personally trains the new employee with a minimum of 15-20 hours extra. This simple example proves TC is not an organization to base your training standards on. TC needs to update the cars minimum training requirements.

My education is much higher then a plumbers or bus driver.
From what you are saying, people who have done it on their own, have a lower education then a plumber.

So how are we equal with education? Just a question.

Are you a product of Confed???? I am getting a really distinct vibe that you are....

Anyway, you have people on here that have mucho experience trying to help you, a smart person would relax their ESL skills a little and try to listen.

Forget your degree and try to work on some experience and charter.

-out