CANADIAN FORCES FLIGHT TRAINING : QUOTA ??

[Commander Rockwell]

Is anyone aware of any sort of quota system that may exist within the Canadian Forces pilot training programme ? Does the pilot training mill plan for a percentage of failure ? If so, what happens when no one fails. Example: A training system may budget for aircraft specific operational training, for new wings graduates on the basis of an 85% success rate in Phase II training on the helicopters, KingAirs, or Hawks. So, 17 out of 20 graduates would achieve wings standard and go on to training for specific aircraft. What would happen if the success rate over several courses is 100% ? But there are only 17 seats budgetted/available over the next period for specific training, thus adhering to the 85% success rate in wings training. Could someone then fall victim to a "quota" system, and "fail" their wings course ? Would the training system "artificially" fail a student because there are no OTU seats available ?

[Jercules]

No.

Ideally every candidate would meet the standard. The CF needs more pilots and it's normal to wait for an OTU. No one fails due to a quota and hopefully nobody passes due to a quota either.

[zed]

Agreed no quoto. But understand you are not in any particular stream until after wings (PFT Portage and BFT Moosejaw)... Which means once you get your wings you go multi, helo, or jet. If there still isn't any room for you on the the next available courses for these three streams, then you end up waiting until the next available course. But it is more likely you will be cooling your heals waiting to get on your PFT and BFTs, then these ones.

There was a backlog of pilots waiting to go through a few years back, but I expect that that has been addressed. Since it was a major bone of contention, since your mandatory service time doesn't start until after wings, and it was taking a couple of years for people to get slotted on the courses and get to wing status. But good luck and have fun.

[SAR_YQQ]

Is anyone aware of any sort of quota system that may exist within the Canadian Forces pilot training programme ?

I currently teach at one of the flying schools. I can verify the previous posts. We plan on 100% pass rate. When my students are approaching the end of their Wings course I contact the Career Manager directly and tell him how many graduates to plan on. He then builds a posting plot based on the numbers I have given him and the immediate needs of the CF. He will know which squadrons require pilots immediately and which airframes have immediate openings for post-Wings training (ie OTUs).

If/when we lose a student, we must account for the reasons behind his/her failure and brief the leadership at the division.

[zed]

SAR_YQQ,

What's the situation on the wait times between portage and Moosejaw? Have they reduced it down? I remember some unlucky OJTers a number of years back (2004-ish) having to wait a year plus to get to Moosejaw following Portage. A lot of backlogs happening. Just curious if they put that problem to bed once and for all.

[SAR_YQQ]

The wait for Phase 2 MJ is still quite lengthy (12-18months). The Phase 2 Grob course wait is in the order of 2-6 months after completion of PFT.

[. ._]

Keep in mind, that if you join the Forces, you agree to have your nuts cut off with a rusty machete and your eyes plucked out with a Bic Cristal. (They don't tell you that part in the recruitment office.)

I'm just sayin'. But you'll be a blind eunuch with pride in your country.

[SAR_YQQ]

But you'll be a blind eunuch with pride in your country.

That only happens if you choose to fly fast jets.

[Expat]

But you'll be a blind eunuch with pride in your country.

That only happens if you choose to fly fast jets.

...but you do not come to Af...except to command...

[172PIC]

Is a degree an absolute requirement to fly in the forces?

[AuxBatOn]

Yes... Eventually.

There are different entry programs:

ROTP: You get paid to do a degree eighter at RMC or a Civilian University. At the completion of your degree, you will start flight training. (3-4-5 years after being enrolled)

DEO: You already have a degree and will start flight training as soon as a slot opens up.

CEOTP: You enrol, start flight training as soon as a slot opens up and within 9 years of your enrolment, you need to complete a degree, otherwise they can release you.

Short answer, yes, you need a degree to be an officer. You need to be an officer to be a pilot.

If all you want to do is fly, you can join as AESOP (Airborne Electronic Sensor Operator, they fly on Aurora and Sea Kings in the back), and all you need is a grade 12.

[zed]

CEOTP program is not open for pilots right now. They have really tightened this and its really an exception. In the past it was, but not anymore.

So, you will need to a) have a degree, b) go to RMC, or c) go to a civilian university to get a degree as part of your welcome package to the Canadian military. Plus side, they pay for all that and only require 12 years of commitment... And your commitment time as discussed above does not start counting down on the date of your enrollment.

[SAR_YQQ]

t and only require 12 years of commitment... And your commitment time as discussed above does not start counting down on the date of your enrollment.

I have never heard of a 12 year commitment. ROTP grads owe four years after graduating. Pilot's owe 7 years after getting their Wings. These two are not cumulative and can be served out concurrently.

[zed]

My bad for the bit about obligatory service. I thought it was from wings, but it appears that it is in fact from date of enrolment. I have a buddy who's just entered as DEO and he's provided me what the recruiting folks emailed him. I will assume they have the details right, you can read it below. Naturally the obligatory service para is last.

In order to become a Pilot in the CF you must qualify for one of the three entry plans below:

a. Direct Entry officer (DEO): As a minimum, applicants to the Regular Force must have an undergraduate degree in a suitable discipline. A student currently in the final year of a degree program is also eligible to apply as a DEO.

b. Regular Officer Training Plan (ROTP): ROTP is an entry level, fully subsidized plan designed to educate and develop for commissioning, selected civilian candidates for service as Regular Forces officers. Selected ROTP candidates are appointed the rank of officer cadet for the period of their subsidization and commissioned subsequent to successful completion of their academic program and requisite military training. Subsidization is carried out at the Royal Military College (RMC) or at an approved Canadian University and/or affiliated College.

The Canadian Forces will subsidize an ROTP applicant to a maximum of five years. Graduates of the ROTP must serve an obligatory period of service.

c. Continuing Education Officer Training Plan (CEOTP): Periodically, this program is open for those applicants who do not possess an undergraduate degree. Qualifying applicants [Regular Force non-commissioned members (NCMs), members of the Primary Reserve who are eligible for Component Transfer to the Regular Force and civilians] are eligible to apply for entry into the CF under the CEOTP if they meet all regular eligibility criteria and fall into one of the categories below:
- Have not completed high school but have completed a college diploma;
- Have not completed high school but have completed a university certificate;
- Have not completed high school but have completed at least one university or college course;
- Have a high school equivalency (i.e. GED); or
- Have graduated from high school.

The key stipulation under the new CEOTP is that you must participate in a program that will lead to a degree within your initial engagement in the CF.

As of 11 August 2010 (subject to change) the following officer occupations are available under the CEOTP:

Construction Engineering (Air Force)
Marine Systems Engineering
Maritime Surface & Sub-surface

Generally, there is no specific degree required to become a pilot. That is to say, an undergraduate degree in Arts, Science or Engineering is acceptable.

The minimum contract length for Pilot under DEO is 9 years, and 12 years under ROTP, including schooling. The contract starts the date of enrolment.

[SAR_YQQ]

Very interesting that a recruiting officer would send that in an email.

I deal with baby-pilots on the other side of the spectrum, just before they get their wings pinned on their chest. The oblig service for completion to Wings standard is 7 years for everyone. All those other numbers are just the 7 years plus whatever time they think it will take to get there. Regardless of training or entry plan, once Wings are awarded, they add 7 years and that is your Restricted Release date. This is done by the Career Manager and has nothing to do with CFRC,

[zed]

Well what do you expect from a recruiter? Accurate facts? Good to know I wasn't imagining the post wings bit and the clock starting there.

As it is my mate is ex-service so he's entering under some sort of contract I'm not familiar with... Sorry don't remember what it is... But if his training slides any further to the right, any 7 year obligatory period is going to go beyond his terms of service. I imagine they automatically extend it to meet the restricted release you talk about.

No life like it.

SAR, Check your PM, I've sent the email with originating recruiter. You may want to pass that along to see that recruiters aren't passing around confusing information to people looking at enrolling.

[DaveC]

I am in my last year of university, and licensed PPL. I've considered this route a couple times, but seems more appealing after reading this thread.

Has anyone gone through the DEO program yet that could give me some insight?

[trampbike]

The wait for Phase 2 MJ is still quite lengthy (12-18months). The Phase 2 Grob course wait is in the order of 2-6 months after completion of PFT.

Who decides if a pilot trainee gets to do BFT on the CT-156 or the Grob? What are the factors affecting that decision?

[DaveC]

The wait for Phase 2 MJ is still quite lengthy (12-18months). The Phase 2 Grob course wait is in the order of 2-6 months after completion of PFT.

Who decides if a pilot trainee gets to do BFT on the CT-156 or the Grob? What are the factors affecting that decision?

I was wondering the same thing. I wouldn't want to sign up for a 7 year commitment to be told i'm going to be flying a helicopter.

[AuxBatOn]

I was wondering the same thing. I wouldn't want to sign up for a 7 year commitment to be told i'm going to be flying a helicopter.

Then don't join and save everyone the hassle. You do not decide what you fly. You may give your preference, but for various reasons (not doing well on course or simply no spots are good examples), you may not get what you want. Remember: needs of the service first. I know 2 people that were hard set on Multis only and got helos simply because they did not do well at all on course. One tried to redress (took more than a year) only to find out she was to report to Portage for the Helo course. She released and wasted a few years of her life, and a lot of the military's ressources. The other released as soon as he knew he had to go helos. In eighter case, they should not have joined in the first place. If you're open to all streams, by all mean apply. If you are hard set on 1 stream and do not want to fly anything else at all cost, don't join. I have no problem with people that quit after their 7 years of restricted release and go for the airlines as long as they "play the game" while they are in and take their part of the burden.

As far as who decides who does the Grob phase II or the H2 phase II, I'm not sure, but I'd imagine that those that want a kick at the cat for Jets will go to Moose Jaw.

[DaveC]

I was wondering the same thing. I wouldn't want to sign up for a 7 year commitment to be told i'm going to be flying a helicopter.

Then don't join and save everyone the hassle. You do not decide what you fly. You may give your preference, but for various reasons (not doing well on course or simply no spots are good examples), you may not get what you want. Remember: needs of the service first. I know 2 people that were hard set on Multis only and got helos simply because they did not do well at all on course. One tried to redress (took more than a year) only to find out she was to report to Portage for the Helo course. She released and wasted a few years of her life, and a lot of the military's ressources. The other released as soon as he knew he had to go helos. In eighter case, they should not have joined in the first place. If you're open to all streams, by all mean apply. If you are hard set on 1 stream and do not want to fly anything else at all cost, don't join. I have no problem with people that quit after their 7 years of restricted release and go for the airlines as long as they "play the game" while they are in and take their part of the burden.

As far as who decides who does the Grob phase II or the H2 phase II, I'm not sure, but I'd imagine that those that want a kick at the cat for Jets will go to Moose Jaw.

How did she release after 2 years (and not the full 7)?

[AuxBatOn]

It's 7 years after you get your wings. You get your wings on the Hawk, King Air or Jet Ranger/412.

[trampbike]

Thanks, that's what I thought. Someone posted that you get your Wings after BFT and it seemed a bit odd to me.

For the Grob vs Harvard II, is it possible that people are selected for the Grob phase II if they are either:
-not interested in flying fighters
-do not have V1 vision uncorrected
?
It would seem logical. Personally, I would not mind the longer OJT wait in order to fly the HarvardII. I surely would not be pissed to fly something that starts with CH-, CC- or CT. Not everyone can/should be a fighter pilot, and I don't think it is necessarily everyone's dream job.

[AuxBatOn]

Thanks, that's what I thought. Someone posted that you get your Wings after BFT and it seemed a bit odd to me.

Nope, after Advanced Flight Training.

For the Grob vs Harvard II, is it possible that people are selected for the Grob phase II if they are either:
-not interested in flying fighters
-do not have V1 vision uncorrected

I don't think vission has anything to do. But no interest in Fighters could well be a good factor influencing the choice.

Personally, I would not mind the longer OJT wait in order to fly the HarvardII. I surely would not be pissed to fly something that starts with CH-, CC- or CT. Not everyone can/should be a fighter pilot, and I don't think it is necessarily everyone's dream job.

You are right, flying fighters is not for everyone and it's not everyone's dream job.

[mcrit]

Thanks, that's what I thought. Someone posted that you get your Wings after BFT and it seemed a bit odd to me.

I think what your friend was talking about was the Phase 2B wings program. Under that program people were awarded wings after advanced training on the Harvard. The program was brought in to deal with some glitches that popped up, and was sort of a trial/stop gap measure. I don't think they've put anyone through that for a year or so.

For the Grob vs Harvard II, is it possible that people are selected for the Grob phase II if they are either:

Pretty much everyone I know that went Grob asked to go Grob. If you choose Grob you will not be going jets; it also used to be a shorter wait time than Moose Jaw (that may or may not be the case now). When the Phase 2 Grob program started there were limited spots, so some people that asked to do it were denied the chance. I know of a few guys that were forced to do the Phase 2 Grob, but they were all recourses (they had failed PFT, gone civi side, got CPLs and came back). I don't know if that is the current policy, SAR_YQQ would know more about that than I do.

It would seem logical. Personally, I would not mind the longer OJT wait in order to fly the HarvardII

I'd say you're on the right track there. Use your OJT time to get other stuff done. (I got half my OPMEs out of the way on OJT and did a few professional courses).