Gov't announces JSF purchase

[Siddley Hawker]

The US Navy is going to be phasing out the Super Hornet by 2024, so how can we be expected to keep it for 26 more years?

What the hey, it worked for the Sea Kings didn't it?

[Moose47]

<<<modi13
Post subject: Re: Gov't announces JSF purchase
PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:55 am
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akoch wrote:
Who exactly is threatening Canadian sovereignty? People, get real. Stop making enemies for no reason for starters, things will get easier. Get along with life.

Can you see 40 years into the future? Do you know that in a decade or two we won't have a conflict on our hands? Even if we aren't directly threatened, that doesn't mean our military won't have a role to play in the world; Canada hasn't fought a war on our own soil since 1885 but we've been involved in numerous conflicts since then. <<<


If you mean by on our own soil as in 'land', you are technically right. But what about during the Second World War. The Royal Canadian Air Force and Royal Canadian Navy very active against U-Boats in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and along Canada's eastern seaboard as well as Newfoundland.

The R.C.A.F. carried out anti-sub and anti-shipping operations on the west coast against the threat of Japanese invasion.

Although not on Canadian territory, Canada was also very involved in the battle against the Japanese in the Aleutian Islands.

A Japanese sub shelled a lighthouse at Estevan Point, British Columbia

The R.C.A.F. carried out a number of intercepts against Japanese 'fire balloons' that were sent over to try and cause forest fires.

[millertime]

I think the truth is that these jets will probably do little more than help get CF pilots laid. The past 30 years the fighter force has been used little for little more than airshows and we saw how that turned out this year. They weren't even used in Afghanistan despite our Allies using fighters for close air support. Of course we need some sort of force to show we are serious about sovereignty so it appears that this is our best option. Its a shame we have to spend billions on nothing but this is the predicament we are in.

[teacher]

Fighter planes or any other weapon is best if it's not used however if you gotta, you better have the best and be ready to use it.

[Siddley Hawker]

What teacher said. There were a lot of reasons I found the Cretin disgusting, but the one that really stands out was his comment upon cancelling the helos that.."We do not need da Cadillac us we. I drive da Chevrolet me." I thought at the time 'you ignorant sob, I wish I could hang you on the end of a cable out over the ocean some night in place of a SARTEC. You'd change your fucking mind pretty quick.'

[AuxBatOn]

I think the truth is that these jets will probably do little more than help get CF pilots laid. The past 30 years the fighter force has been used little for little more than airshows and we saw how that turned out this year. They weren't even used in Afghanistan despite our Allies using fighters for close air support. Of course we need some sort of force to show we are serious about sovereignty so it appears that this is our best option. Its a shame we have to spend billions on nothing but this is the predicament we are in.

This shows how little you know about what we do on a day-to-day basis. Sovereignty operations happen quite often. Without Canadian fighters, American Fighters would do the intercepts.

The lack of overseas deployment isn't because of a lack of will within the fighter force, but because of the lack of will from the politicians to show an "agressive" stance. In the past 30 years, Canadian Fighter Pilots patrolled European Skies, fought in Gulf War I, fought in Kosovo and maintained Air Sovereignty of the Canadian Airspace.

Airshows account for less than 1% of my annual flying. But it is a necesssay evil (yes, I say evil, because I would rather use the flight time to train tactically and become more proficient at my job) because we need to show the public what we do and who we are.

[teacher]

Yup, we're all friends. No aggressive intents here. Give them an inch they'll try to take a foot. Anyone saying that these Russian provocations are routine and nothing to worry about should think again. It always starts small. Fact is you should not let other people or countries push you around.

Russian jets buzz US navy frigate in Arctic in Cold War-style show of force

Russian aircraft have buzzed a US navy frigate in the Arctic Ocean in a Cold War-style show of force as the Kremlin steps up its campaign to claim much of the resource-rich region.

By Andrew Osborn in Moscow
Published: 6:55PM BST 20 Sep 2010

A Ka-27 submarine hunter helicopter took off from a Russian warship the following day and again flew perilously close to the American ship Photo: GETTY
The incident comes as Russia, which has not publicly explained its pilots' actions, prepares to host a conference on the Arctic in Moscow this week at which it is expected to push its hotly-contested territorial claims.

According to the Pentagon, a Russian Il-38 submarine hunter plane armed with torpedoes and bombs flew within less than 170 feet of the USS Taylor in a hair-raising incident in the Barents Sea off Russia's northern coast just over a week ago.

Reinforcing the message, a Ka-27 submarine hunter helicopter took off from a Russian warship the following day and again flew perilously close to the American ship.

The two incidents were deemed so serious that Admiral Gary Roughead, the head of the US navy, raised the matter with Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky, his Russian counterpart.

Although both countries are well used to tracking one another's naval movements, the aggressive nature of the Russian "reconnaissance" raised eyebrows in the Pentagon and alarmed the commanders of the USS Taylor, who feared an accidental collision.

"They were pretty close," Colonel Dave Lapan, a Pentagon spokesman, told reporters.

"Both sides are in discussions now to determine whether the proper protocols were followed. This is a fairly rare occurrence."

The Russian behaviour was all the more extraordinary since the USS Taylor was on its way back from the Russian port of Murmansk, where it had docked to take part in a friendly joint celebration of the two countries' cooperation during the Second World War.

The incident comes as Russia prepares to reassert its claim to a large part of the Arctic at a Moscow conference this week. Vladimir Putin, the Russian prime minister, will give a speech in which he is expected to argue for a negotiated division of the Arctic according to international law. Moscow is claiming ownership of a large swath of the Arctic including the North Pole but faces competition from the United States, Canada, Denmark and Norway.

In 2007, Russian scientists used a mini-submarine to plant a rust-proof Russian flag beneath the North Pole to symbolise Moscow's claim to the area, while President Dmitry Medvedev has said that the Kremlin's task is to turn the Arctic into "a twenty first century resource base for Russia." Scientists have estimated the region is rich in untapped oil and gas reserves, stoking the geopolitical race for ownership. That was underlined on Monday when Russia's top polar explorer, Artur Chilingarov, vowed to launch a drifting research station to collect more evidence for Russia's claim. However, a top Russian official downplayed claims that Moscow planned to deploy troops to the Arctic to defend its interests.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... force.html

[Moose47]

I had a good laugh when I read the headline. Neither of the aircraft mentioned is a jet or 'jets' as the headline says.

Now I know the Russians have some pretty big subs, but this 'submarine' helicopter' would not fit in anyone that I am aware of.

The U.S. showed remarkable restraint during the Cold War with many incidents of Russian aircraft entering U.S. airspace on both coasts and shadowing American fleets during exercises. They did not shoot a single aircraft down. On the other hand, the Russians have a history of shooting down American and NATO aircraft doing the same things they were doing themselves. Soviet allies and the Communist Chinese shot down their share of both military and civilian aircraft belonging to a number of countries as well.

Cheers...Chris

29 August 1945 Soviet pilot Zizevskii, flying a Yak-9 Frank, damaged a US Army Air Force B-29 Superfortress dropping supplies to a POW camp near Hamhung Korea and forced it to land. The crew of the B-29 was not injured in the attack.

2-16 September 1945 Soviet fighters fired on US Navy 7th Fleet air patrols in Manchurian airspace.

15 November 1945 While on a routine patrol mission, a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner was attacked by a Soviet Fighter 25 miles south of Dairen (Port Arthur) Manchuria. No damage was inflicted. The PBM-5 was investigating six Soviet transport ships and a beached seaplane in the Gulf of Chihli in the Yellow Sea. Some sources state that this happened on October 15th, not November 15th.

1946 Zelijko Cermelj, flying a Yak-3 of the Yugoslav Air Force forced down a Royal Air Force Dakota transport flying over Southern Yugoslavia, near Nis.

20 February 1946 While on a training flight, a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner from VP-26, based in Tsingtao China, made an unauthorized flight over Dairen (Port Arthur) Manchuria. As a result, Soviet fighters fired warning bursts at it, but no damage was inflicted.

22 April 1946 A US Army Air Force C-47 was shot at near Vienna Austria, but managed to escape.

27 October 1948 A Italian Air Force P-38 Lightning (MM4175) was shot down over Yugoslavia.

1949 Soviet pilots claimed to have downed a US Air Force B-25 Mitchell over the Black Sea, near Odessa.

22 October 1949 An US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress was attacked by Soviet fighters over the Sea of Japan. There were no injuries to the RB-29's crew.

8 April 1950 Soviet La-11 Fangs, piloted by Boris Dokin, Anatoliy Gerasimov, Tezyaev, and Sataev shot down a US Navy PB4Y-2 Privateer (BuNo 59645) Turbulent Turtle of VP-26, Det A. Based from Port Lyautey, French Morrocco, the Privateer was on a patrol mission launched from Wiesbaden, West Germany. According the to the American account, this incident happened over the Baltic Sea off the coast of Lepija Latvia. The Soviets claimed the aircraft was intercepted over Latvia and fired on the Soviet fighters during the interception. After the fighters engaged the Privateer, the Soviets report that it descended sharply before crashing into the sea 5-10 kilometers off the coast. Wreckage was recovered, but the crew of John H. Fette, Howard W. Seeschaf, Robert D. Reynolds, Tommy L. Burgess, Frank L. Beckman, Joe H. Danens, Jack W. Thomas, Joesph Jay Bourassa, Edward J. Purcell and Joesph Norris Rinnier Jr. were missing and presumed killed.

24 April 1950 Soviet pilot Keleinikov claimed to have downed a US Air Force P-38 Lightning (F-82 Twin Mustang?).

April 1950 Soviet pilot P. Dushin claimed to have shot down a US Air Force B-26 Invader.

April 1950 Soviet pilot V. Sidorov claimed to have shot down a US Air Force B-26 Invader.

April 1950 Soviet pilot Nikolai N. Guzhov claimed to have shot down two US Air Force F-51 Mustangs.

May 1950 Soviet pilot V.S. Yefremov, flying a La-11 Fang, claimed to have shot down a US Air Force F-51 Mustang over the Chukotka Peninsula.

11 May 1950 Soviet pilot I.I. Shinkarenko claimed to have downed a US Air Force B-24 Liberator (PB4Y Privateer?).

14 July 1950 A US Air Force RB-29 was shot at near Permskoye airfield in the USSR, but escaped.

October-December 1950 A US Navy P2V Neptune of VP-6, piloted by Arthur Farwell, was intercepted at night by four Soviet MiG-15 Fagots, near Vladivostok. The Neptune's tail gunner opened fire and one MiG exploded.

4 December 1950 Soviet MiG-15 Fagots shot down an RB-45C Tornado of the US Air Force 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 45 miles east of Andung People's Republic of China (just across the Yalu River from Sinuiju North Korea). Soviet pilot Aleksandr F. Andrianov received credit for shooting down the aircraft. Co-pilot Jules E. Young and navigator James L. Picucci were killed in the crash. Pilot Charles E. McDonough and passenger John R. Lovell bailed out and landed south of the Yalu River. McDonough was badly burned when he landed on the Tornado's wreckage. Both were captured the next day by the North Koreans. McDonough was murdered during an interrogation by North Korean and Soviet officers two weeks later. Lovell survived brutal interrogation sessions, but was finally taken into a North Korean village, where the residents were encouraged to lynch him.

26 December 1950 Two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots, flown by S.A. Bakhev and N. Kotov shared in the downing of a US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress.

4 July 1951 A US Air Force RB-45C Tornado of the 323rd Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, based in Yokota Japan, conducted a night overflight 500 miles into Manchuria. The crew of Stacy D. Naftel, Edward Kendrex and Bob Dusenberry reported that they were attacked by MiG-15 Fagots while approaching their target in Harbin People's Republic of China. They managed to escaped damage by outrunning the intercepting fighters.

6 November 1951 While conducting an intelligence gathering mission, later claimed to be a "weather reconnaissance mission under United Nations command", a US Navy P2V-3W Neptune (BuNo 124283 - not 124284 as listed in some sources) of VP-6 was shot down over the Sea of Japan, near Vladivostok, by Soviet La-11 Fangs flown by I. Ya. Lukashyev and M.K. Shchukin. The Soviet pilots reported that they intercepted the aircraft in the area of Cape Ostrovnoy approximately 7-8 miles from the shore. After they fired on the aircraft, it fell, burning, into the water and exploded 18 miles from the shore. The crew of Judd C. Hodgson, Sam Rosenfeld, Donald E. Smith, Reuben S. Baggett, Paul R. Foster, Erwin D. Raglin, Paul G. Juric, William S. Meyer, Ralph A. Wigert Jr. and Jack Lively were reported as missing.

4 April 1952 A US Navy patrol bomber was damaged by gunfire from an unidentified trawler one hundred mile southeast of Shanghai People's Republic of China. On one was hurt and the plane returned safely to Taiwan.

29 April 1952 A DC-4 of Air France was shot at by two MiG-15 Fagots when approaching Berlin. The aircraft was damaged and three passengers wounded.

13 June 1952 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress (44-61810) of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, based in Yokota Japan, was shot down by Soviet fighters over the Sea of Japan, 18 miles from the Soviet coast, near Hokkaido. Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilots Fedotov and Proskurin reported intercepting the aircraft in the area of Valentin Bay, nine miles from the Soviet coastline. They reported that the RB-29 fired on the Soviet fighters, when intercepted. The Soviet pilots returned fire and the US plane descended, burst into flames and crashed into the water at a distance of about 18 miles from our coastline. Official US records state that the aircraft was on a classified surveillance mission of shipping activity over the Sea of Japan. The plane was followed by radar over the course of the flight until 1320 hours at which time the radar contact was lost. Empty life rafts were spotted by search aircraft the next day. Radio Moscow stated on June 16 stated that one officer survivor had been picked up by a Russian vessel about two days before. The name of the survivor was not given and efforts to confirm the report were unsuccessful. The crew of Sam Busch, Robert J. McDonnell, Roscoe G. Becker, Eddie R. Berg, Leon F. Bonura, William R. Homer, Samuel D. Service, James A. Sculley, William A. Blizzard, Miguel W. Monserrat , Danny Pillsbury and David L. Moore were all listed as missing, presumed dead.

13 June 1952 Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilot Captain Boris Osinsky, of the 483rd Fighter Aviation Regiment, shot down a Swedish SIGINT C-47 (Tp79 79001 Hugin) piloted by Alvar Almeberg, over the Baltic, near Ventspils Latvia. Everybody on board the C-47 was killed - the only wreckage found at the time was a life raft. The C-47 was one of two, (the other being 79002 Munin, both named after Odin's ravens), together with a Ju 86 called Blondie, which supposedly belonged to the so called 6 Transportflyggruppen at F 8, which at that time had a staff of twelve. In reality they were used for SIGINT duties, the C-47s fitted out with five operator stations, the operators belonging to FRA (Försvarets Radioanstalt = the Radio Establishment of the Defense). In June 2003, Swedish searchers found the wreckage of the C-47 on the bottom of the Baltic in international waters near Gotska Sandoen island, about 120 kilometers (75 miles) east of the Swedish coastline. The wreckage was raised during the night of March 19/20 2004 and returned to Sweden.

16 June 1952 Soviet pilots N. Semernikov and I. Yatsenko-Kosenko shared in the downing of a Swedish PBY Catalina (Tp 47 47002) outside the island of Dagö. The PBY was looking for survivors of the Swedish SIGINT C-47 lost on June 13th. After taking hits in the fuselage and the engines the PBY was forced to land on the water with two of the crew of seven injured. The crew was rescued by a German merchant ship.

31 July 1952 While conducting a patrol mission, a US Navy PBM-5S2 Mariner (BuNo 59277), of VP-731, based from Iwakuni Japan, was attacked by two People's Republic of China MiG-15 Fagots over the Yellow Sea. Two crew members were killed and two were seriously wounded. The PBM suffered extensive damage, but was able to make it safely to Paengyong-do Korea.

20 September 1952 A US Navy PB4Y-2S Privateer, of VP-28, was attacked by two Chinese MiG-15 Fagots off the coast of the People's Republic of China. One of the PLAAF pilots was Zhongdao He. The USN aircraft was able to safely return to Naha, Okinawa.

7 October 1952 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress Sunbonnet King (44-61815) of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron was shot down over the Kurile Islands, between Yuri Island and Akiyuri Island, by two Soviet La-11 Fang fighters, flown by Alekseyevich Zhiryakov and Lesnov. The crew of eight, Eugene M. English, John R. Dunham, Paul E. Brock, Samuel A. Colgan, John A Hirsch, Thomas G. Shipp, Fred G. Kendrick and Frank E. Neail III, were all listed as missing, presumed dead. Soviet search and rescue units recovered the body of one crewman, John R. Dunham. His remains were initially buried on Yuri Island in the Kurile chain, but were returned to the US in the 1994.

8 October 1952 A US Air Force C-47 was fired on near Berlin Germany.

15 October 1952 A B-47 photo reconnaissance flight, authorized by President Truman and staged out of Eielson AFB, was flown over the Chukotsky Peninsula. It confirmed that the Soviets were developing Arctic staging bases on the peninsula from which their bombers could easily reach targets on the North American continent.

12 January 1953 A US Air Force B-29 Superfortress on a leaflet-dropping mission over Manchuria was shot down by a swarm of 12 enemy fighters. The plane was assigned to the 581st Air Resupply and Communications Wing and carried a crew of 14. After the attack, B-29 aircraft commander, John K. Arnold, ordered the crew to bail out. Unfortunately, three men died during the attack, but the other 11 parachuted to the ground, were captured and taken to China for interrogation and imprisonment. These men were not released until 1956.

18 January 1953 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune (BuNo 127744) of VP-22, based at Atsugi Japan, was damaged by Chinese anti-aircraft fire near Swatow People's Republic of China, but was able to ditch in the Formosa Strait. Eleven of thirteen crewmen were rescued by a US Coast Guard PBM-5 Mariner, under fire from Chinese shore batteries on Nan Ao Tao island. Attempting to takeoff in 8-12 foot swells, the PBM crashed. Ten survivors out of nineteen total (including five from the P2V-5) were rescued by the destroyer USS Halsey Powell (DD 686). During the search effort a PBM-5 Mariner from VP-40 received fire from a small-caliber machine gun and the destroyer USS Gregory (DD 802) received fire from Chinese shore batteries. Dwight C. Angell, Ronald A. Beahm, Paul A. Morley, William F. McClure, Lloyd Smith and Clifford Byars were the P2V-5 crewmen reported lost.

6 March 1953 People's Republic of China PLAAF pilot Yaxiong He claimed to have shot down a US Navy F4U Corsair at Qianlidao in Qingdao.

10 March 1953 Two US Air Force F-84G Thunderjets of the 36 TFW, based in West Germany, crossed into Czechoslovakian airspace. They were intercepted by Czech MiG-15 Fagots and one F-84G was shot down by Jaroslav Sramek. The pilot ejected and survived.

12 March 1953 Seven airmen are killed when the Royal Air Force Avro Lincoln Mk2 (RF531/C) they were flying in, was shot down by a Soviet MiG-15 Fagot in the Berlin air corridor, near Boizenberg, 20 miles NE of Luneburg. The aircraft, from the RAF Central Gunnery School at Leconfield in Yorkshire, was on a training flight. Among the crew members were H.J. Fitz, S.V. Wyles, W.R. Mason, R.F. Stevens and K.J. Jones.

15 March 1953 A US Air Force WB-50 Superfortress reconnaissance plane of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing was attacked by a pair of Soviet MiG-15 Fagots approximately 25 miles off the Kamchatka Peninsula, near Petropavlovsk. The WB-50 based at Forbes Air Force Base, Kansas, was temporarily operating from Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska, while assigned to the 15th WRS. After escorting the WB-50 for a short time, one Soviet pilot opened fire on the WB-50. WB-50 gunner Jesse Prim returned fire and the MiG pilot quickly broke off his attack and returned to his base.

17 March 1953 A British European Airways Viking was shot at by Soviet MiG-15 Fagots near Berlin Germany.

22 March 1953 A US Air Force B-50 was attacked by Soviet MiG-15 Fagots.

23 April 1953 A US Navy P4M-1Q Mercator (BuNo 124369) piloted by Dick Renner and Mel Davidow, was attacked by two MiG-15 Fagots while flying off the Chinese coast near Shanghai. The MiGs made a several firing runs and the crew of the Mercator returned fire. The Mercator was not hit, and as far as the crew of the Mercator could tell, their return fire did not damage the MiGs. William Haskins, the radioman on this Mercator, was later killed in the downing of another Mercator on August 22 1956.

15 May 1953 A Soviet MiG-15 Fagot opened fire on a US Air Force WB-29 Superfortress off the Kamchatka Peninsula. The WB-29's gunners returned fire. There were no casualties.

21 July 1953 Two Chinese MiGs damaged a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner in an attack that took place over the Yellow Sea.

29 July 1953 An US Air Force RB-50G Superfortress (47-145) Little Red Ass of the 343rd Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, temporarily attached to the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron based at Yokota Air Base, Japan, was shot down south of Askold Island near Vladivostok, by Soviet pilots Aleksandr D. Rybakov and Yuri M. Yablonskii, flying MiG-17 Frescos. The RB-50's tail gunner James E. Woods was able to fire a brief burst at the MiG-17s, but the fighters were able to avoid this fire and quickly downed the plane, shooting its left wing off. The co-pilot of the RB-50, John E. Roche, was the sole survivor of the 18 man crew, though as many as seven crew members might have successfully bailed out. After spending about 12 hours in the water, an SB-29 dropped an A-3 survival raft to Roche and the RB-50's pilot, Stanley K. O'Kelley. Roche was able to crawl into the survival raft, but O'Kelley succumbed to hypothermia. After another 10 hours in the survival raft, Roche was rescued by the USS Picking (DD 685). The remains of Stanley K. O'Kelley and Francis L. Brown were later recovered on the coast of Japan. The other crew, James G. Keith, Francisco J. Tejeda, Warren J. Sanderson, Robert E. Stalnaker, Lloyd C. Wiggins, Roland E. Goulet, Earl W. Radlein Jr., Charles J. Russell Jr., James E. Woods, John C. Ward, Edmund J. Czyz, Frank E. Beyer, Donald W. Gabree, Donald G. Hill and an unnamed Russian, were never found.

August 1953 A Royal Air Force Canberra, a modified B Mk.2, suffered damage during a reconnaissance flight over the Kapustin Yar missile base in the USSR. The aircraft aborted its mission and landed in Iran.

27 January 1954 A US Air Force RB-45 Tornado flying over the Yellow Sea with an escort of F-86 Sabres was attacked by eight MiG-15 Fagots. One MiG was shot down by USAF pilot Bertram Beecroft.

21 March 1954 Two US Navy AD-4 Skyraiders, from VA-145 and VC-35 Det F, lauched from the USS Randolph (CVA 15) launched on a simulated strike mission against a West German airfield. They were attacked over or near the Czechoslovak border by a Czech MiG-15 Fagot. One AD-4 received damage to its tail.

29 April 1954 A RB-45C Tornado operated by the Royal Air Force narrowly escaped being was shot down by antiaircraft fire near Kiev. The mission was aborted.

8 May 1954 Three US Air Force RB-47E Stratojet reconnaissance planes took off from RAF Fairford in England. Two of the Stratojets flew as airborne spares and turned back before the overflight began. The remaining plane penetrated Soviet airspace near Murmansk. The plane flew over numerous Soviet air fields and naval facilities conducting photographic reconnaissance and making radar scope images of the various facilities. The RB-47E continued to Arkhangelsk before turning west and heading back to England. The USAF plane was intercepted by MiG fighters after being over Soviet territory for about 50 miles. Initially, MiG-15 Fagots were spotted, but a short time later a flight of MiG-17 Frescos appeared. The operational deployment of the MiG-17 was a significant surprise to the crew of the RB-47. When the MiG-17s climbed to approximately the same altitude as the reconnaissance plane (38,000 feet) they opened fire. The Soviet fighters each made single shooting passes at the USAF plane. The RB-47 was equipped with a tail gun controlled by the copilot and returned fire but did not hit any of the Soviet planes. One MiG was able to hit the Stratojet with several rounds and caused moderate damage to the wing and fuselage. Before the MiGs were able to shoot down the USAF plane, it crossed the border into Finland and the MiGs broke off the attack. However, during the attack the RB-47's fuel tanks were hit and the plane nearly ran out of fuel before it was met by a Boeing KC-97 tanker for in-flight refueling. The RB-47E landed safely in England a short time later.

May 1954 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet of the 51st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing flying a photo reconnaissance mission over the Northern USSR exchanged gunfire with MiG-17 Frescos. The RB-47 was lightly damaged, but the crew of Hal Austin, Carl Holt and Vance Heavilin got home safely.

3 June 1954 A Belgian transport aircraft was shot at by MiGs over Yugoslavia and one crew member was killed.

26 July 1954 Two US Navy AD-4 Skyraiders from VF-54, piloted by William Alexander and John Zarious,were launched from the USS Philippine Sea (CVA 47) to look for survivors from the Cathay Pacific DC-4 shot down four days previously. They were attacked by two Chinese La-7 Fins. A number of other VF-54 AD-4 Skyraiders and a F4U-5N Corsair of VC-3 came to the aid of the USN aircraft. One La-7 was shot down by AD-4 pilots Roy Tatham and Richard Cooks. The other LA-7 was shot down by AD-4 pilots John Damien, John Rochford, Paul Wahlstrom and Richard Ribble and the F4U-5N pilot Edgar Salsig. A Chinese gunboat also fired upon the US aircraft, but no damage was sustained.

12 August 1954 Two US training planes were shot down over Czechoslovakia. The pilots were captured and held for several months.

4 September 1954 A US Navy P2V-5 of VP-19, operating from NAS Atsugi Japan was attacked 40 miles off the coast of Siberia by two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots. The aircraft ditched and one crew member, Roger H. Reid was lost. The other crew members, John B. Wayne, John C. Fischer, William A. Bedard, Frank E. Petty, Anthony P. Granera, Texas R. Stone, Paul R. Mulmollem, Ernest L. Pinkevich and David A. Atwell were rescued by a US Air Force SA-16 amphibian.

7 November 1954 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress reconnaissance aircraft was shot down by Soviet fighters, flown by Kostin and Seberyakov, near Hokkaido Island in northern Japan. The plane carrying a crew of eleven was conducting routine photographic reconnaissance near Hokkaido and the southern most of the disputed Kuril islands. The plane was attacked and seriously damaged, forcing the crew to bail out. Ten crewmen were successfully rescued after landing in the sea; however, the eleventh man drowned when he became entangled in his parachute lines after landing.

17 April 1955 Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilots Korotkov and Sazhin shared in the downing of a US Air Force RB-47E Stratojet of the 4th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, flying from Eielson AFB, near Kamchatka. The crew of Lacie C. Neighbors, Robert N. Brooks and Richard E. Watkins Jr. were all presumed killed.

22 June 1955 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune of VP-9 (BuNo 131515), flying a patrol mission from Kodiak Alaska, was attacked over the Bering Strait by two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots. The aircraft crash-landed on St. Lawrence Island after an engine was set afire. Of the eleven crew members, including pilot Richard F. Fischer, co-pilot David M. Lockhard, Donald E. Sonnek, Thaddeus Maziarz, Martin E. Berg, Eddie Benko, David Assard and Charles Shields, four sustained injuries due to gunfire and six were injured during the landing. The USA demanded $724,947 in compensation; the USSR finally paid half this amount.

24 December 1957 A US Air Force RB-57 was shot down over the Black Sea by Soviet fighters.

27 June 1958 A US Air Force C-118, reportedly on a regular supply flight from Wiesbaden West Germany to Karachi Pakistan, via Cyprus and Iran, crossed the Soviet border near Yerevan Armenia. Soviet MiG-17P Fresco pilots G.F. Svetlichnikov and B.F. Zakharov shot the aircraft down 30 km south of Yerevan. Five crew members parachuted to safety and four other survived the crash landing on a half-finished airstrip. The crew of Dale D. Brannon, Luther W. Lyles, Robert E. Crans, Bennie A. Shupe, James T. Kane, James N. Luther, James G. Holman, Earl H. Reamer and Peter N. Sabo were captured and later released by the Soviets on July 7, 1958. This aircraft was reported to be the personal aircraft of Allen Dulles, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency. The C-118 had carried senior CIA aides to Europe on an inspection trip, and it was in Turkey when it was diverted.

26 July 1958 A US Air Force RB-47, flying from Iran, was intercepted by Soviet fighters over the Caspian Sea 130 miles east-southeast of Astara. The RB-47 evaded the fighters and fled to safety.

25 August 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Tien-En Chiang and Hsu-Hsiang Ku each shot down a People's Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco.

2 September 1958 A US Air Force C-130A Hercules (60-528) of the 7406 CSS, flying from Adana Turkey, was shot down near Sasnashen, Soviet Armenia, about 55 kilometers northwest of the Armenian capital of Yerevan by Soviet MiG-17 Fresco pilots Gavrilov, Ivanov, Kucheryaev and Viktor Lopatkov. The C-130 was a Sun Valley SIGINT aircraft. The remains of John E. Simpson, Rudy J. Swiestra, Edward J. Jeruss and Ricardo M. Vallareal were returned to the US on September 24, 1958. The remains of the other crew members, Paul E. Duncan, George P. Petrochilos, Arthur L. Mello, Leroy Price, Robert J. Oshinskie, Archie T. Bourg Jr., James E. Fergueson, Joel H. Fields, Harold T. Kamps, Gerald C. Maggiacomo, Clement O. Mankins, Gerald H. Medeiros and Robert H. Moore were recovered in 1998.

31 October 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked by Soviet fighters over the Black Sea. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

7 November 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked by Soviet fighters, east of Gotland Island over the Baltic Sea. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

17 November 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked over the Sea of Japan by Soviet fighters. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

1 May 1960 A CIA Lockheed U-2C (Article 360, 56-6693), flown by Francis Gary Powers from Peshawar Pakistan, was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline missile, near Sverdlovsk, USSR. Recent evidence says that Powers was shot down by the first of three missiles fired by a battery commanded by Mikhail Voronov. A Soviet MiG-19 Farmer pilot, Sergei Safronov, was shot down and killed by another SA-2 Guideline fired later in the incident. Powers bailed out and parachuted to safety. He was then taken captive and later tried in a Soviet court. After serving some time in prison, he was released, in exchange for Soviet spy Rudolf Abel on February 10th, 1962 in Berlin.

25 May 1960 A US Air Force C-47 was forced to land in East Germany by Soviet MiGs. The nine crew members were held captive until July 19th 1960.

1 July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Sea was downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 Fagot. Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed. Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.

24 September 1962 A US Air Force RB-47H, piloted by John Drost, was intercepted over the Baltic Sea by a Soviet MiG-19 Farmer.

27 October 1962 A US Air Force U-2A (Article 343, 56-6676) of the 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, piloted by Rudolf Anderson, was shot down by a SA-2 Guideline missile over Cuba. Anderson was killed when shrapnel punctured his pressure suit, causing the suit to decompress at altitude, after the cockpit has already decompressed. He was posthumously awarded the Air Force Cross.

4 November 1962 A Russian-flown MiG-21 Fishbed intercepted two US Air Force F-104C Starfighters from the 479th Tactical Fighter Wing on a reconnaissance sortie near Santa Clara Cuba, but the F-104s disengaged and retired northward.

May 1963 Soviet MiG-17F Fresco pilot Steapnov, of the 156th IAP, shot down an Imperial Iranian Air Force Aerocommander 560. The IIAF crew members and a Colonel of the US Special Forces, were all killed.

24 January 1964 A US Air Force T-39 Sabreliner, based in Weisbaden West Germany, was shot down by a Soviet fighter over Thuringia, about 60 miles inside East Germany while on a training flight. The crew of three, Gerald Hannaford, John Lorraine and Donald Millard were killed.

10 March 1964 A US Air Force RB-66 Destroyer from the 10 TRW, based at Toul-Rosieres France, was shot down over East Germany by Soviet MiGs. The aircraft was shot down near Gardelegen, after straying out of one of the Berlin air corridors. The three crew members, David Holland, Melvin Kessler and Harold Welch parachuted to safety and were released several days later.







14 December 1965 A US Air Force RB-57F of the 7407 Support Squadron at Wiesbaden West Germany, was lost over the Black Sea, near Odessa. Pilot Lester L. Lackey and crew member Robert Yates were presumed killed. Recent investigations indicate that there might not have been any Soviet activity related to this loss. The crew probably perished from an oxygen system failure, since it took over an hour for the aircraft to spiral down from altitude and fall into the Black Sea. After 7 or 8 days spent searching for the aircraft, only small bits and pieces of wreckage were ever found.

1967 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet of the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over Iran, near the Soviet border, was reported to have been hit by a Soviet surface-to-air missile. The damaged aircraft managed to reach the mountains north of Tehran, but crashed before being able to land, killing the entire crew.

1 July 1968 A Seaboard World Airlines DC-8 carrying 214 US troops to Vietnam, from McChord Air Force Base, Washington, via Yokota Air Force Base, Japan was forced to land on Etoforu Island in the Kuril Island chain by Soviet fighters. Pilot Joseph Tosolini was warned by a Japan Self-Defense Force radar site on the northern island of Hokkaido that he had strayed off course and was headed for the Soviet Union. The warning came too late, as the aircraft had already been intercepted by MiGs flown by Yu.B. Alexandrov, V.A. Igonin, I.F. Evtoshenko and I.K. Moroz. A day later, after the Soviets received an apology for the incident, the aircraft and passengers were released.

21 October 1970 A US Air Force U-8 was lost over the USSR (Armenia). The crew of 4 were all rescued.

17 November 1970 A US Air Force KC-135R Briar Patch, piloted by James W. Jones, was intercepted by Soviet MiG-17 Frescos, while conducted a SIGINT flight over international waters near Vaygach Island. One of the MiG-17s fired warning shots, but the KC-135R ignored them and continued on its mission. The MiGs continued to escort the KC-135R, but did not fire on it again.

1971 A US Air Force C-130 Hercules was reported to have crashed near the Soviet border, in Iran.

10 August 1973 Israel Air Force Mirage IIICJs intercepted a Middle East Airlines Caravelle soon after it took off from Beirut and forced it to land at Lod airport in Israel. There, the Israeli authorities searched the aircraft for George Habash, the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. However, Habash was not on board and the airliner was released.

28 November 1973 Soviet MiG-21SM Fishbed pilot Gennadii N. Eliseev intercepted an Imperial Iranian Air Force RF-4E Phantom II in Soviet airspace. After an unsuccessful attempt at firing a AA-2 Atoll missile at the Phantom, Eliseev destroyed the Phantom by ramming it. The Phantom's crew of IIAF pilot Major Shokouhnia and USAF backseater Saunders parachuted to safety and were captured by Soviet border guards. They were released 16 days later.

1977 An Imperial Iranian Air Force F-4E Phantom II was reported to have damaged a Soviet MiG-25R Foxbat over Iran with an AIM-7 Sparrow missile. The damaged Soviet aircraft managed to make it back over the Soviet border before crashing.

20 April 1978 A Korean Air Lines Boeing 707-321B (HL-7429, flight 902) flew over Murmansk while on a Anchorage-Paris flight, due to a navigation error. A Soviet PVO Su-15 Flagon, piloted by A. Bosov, intercepted it and fired an air-to-air missile at the airliner. The missile blew off part of the 707's wing and showered the fuselage with shrapnel, killing two passengers. The pilot of the 707, Captain Kim Chang Ky, reported that when he caught sight of' the Soviet interceptor he reduced speed, lowered his landing gear, and flashed his navigation lights on and off, all ICAO procedures signifying willingness to follow the Soviet interceptor. After his airliner was damaged, he descended through clouds to lower altitude and in doing so, he became separated from the Soviet interceptor. For more than an hour the airliner flew at an altitude of several thousand feet across the snow-covered terrain, seeking a safe landing place. The Soviets had no idea where he was. Several approaches to possible landing sites where aborted when obstructions were spotted at the last moment. Finally, after nightfall, the crew found a frozen lake bed, just west of Kem, and let down smoothly, skidding to a safe landing. Of the 97 passengers and 12 crew on board, two passengers were killed.

***1980 A Soviet Tu-95 Bear, flying from the USSR to Cuba entered US airspace and passed very close to Langley AFB in Virginia (it could be seen from the control tower). The aircraft was intercepted by F-15s from the US Air Force 1st TFW and escorted out of US airspace.

1 September 1983 A Korean Air Lines Boeing 747-230B (HL-7442, flight 007), was shot down over Sakhalin Island by AA-3 Anab missiles fired by a Soviet Su-15 Flagon piloted by Gennadi N. Osipovich. The aircraft was off-course, likely due to a navigation error and had already overflown the Kamchatka Pennisula. All 23 crew and 246 passengers (including US Congressman Lawrence McDonald from Georgia) were killed.

[Moose47]

I had a good laugh when I read the headline. Neither of the aircraft mentioned is a jet or 'jets' as the headline says.

Now I know the Russians have some pretty big subs, but this 'submarine' helicopter' would not fit in anyone that I am aware of.

The U.S. showed remarkable restraint during the Cold War with many incidents of Russian aircraft entering U.S. airspace on both coasts and shadowing American fleets during exercises. They did not shoot a single aircraft down. On the other hand, the Russians have a history of shooting down American and NATO aircraft doing the same things they were doing themselves. Soviet allies and the Communist Chinese shot down their share of both military and civilian aircraft belonging to a number of countries as well.

Cheers...Chris

29 August 1945 Soviet pilot Zizevskii, flying a Yak-9 Frank, damaged a US Army Air Force B-29 Superfortress dropping supplies to a POW camp near Hamhung Korea and forced it to land. The crew of the B-29 was not injured in the attack.

2-16 September 1945 Soviet fighters fired on US Navy 7th Fleet air patrols in Manchurian airspace.

15 November 1945 While on a routine patrol mission, a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner was attacked by a Soviet Fighter 25 miles south of Dairen (Port Arthur) Manchuria. No damage was inflicted. The PBM-5 was investigating six Soviet transport ships and a beached seaplane in the Gulf of Chihli in the Yellow Sea. Some sources state that this happened on October 15th, not November 15th.

1946 Zelijko Cermelj, flying a Yak-3 of the Yugoslav Air Force forced down a Royal Air Force Dakota transport flying over Southern Yugoslavia, near Nis.

20 February 1946 While on a training flight, a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner from VP-26, based in Tsingtao China, made an unauthorized flight over Dairen (Port Arthur) Manchuria. As a result, Soviet fighters fired warning bursts at it, but no damage was inflicted.

22 April 1946 A US Army Air Force C-47 was shot at near Vienna Austria, but managed to escape.

27 October 1948 A Italian Air Force P-38 Lightning (MM4175) was shot down over Yugoslavia.

1949 Soviet pilots claimed to have downed a US Air Force B-25 Mitchell over the Black Sea, near Odessa.

22 October 1949 An US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress was attacked by Soviet fighters over the Sea of Japan. There were no injuries to the RB-29's crew.

8 April 1950 Soviet La-11 Fangs, piloted by Boris Dokin, Anatoliy Gerasimov, Tezyaev, and Sataev shot down a US Navy PB4Y-2 Privateer (BuNo 59645) Turbulent Turtle of VP-26, Det A. Based from Port Lyautey, French Morrocco, the Privateer was on a patrol mission launched from Wiesbaden, West Germany. According the to the American account, this incident happened over the Baltic Sea off the coast of Lepija Latvia. The Soviets claimed the aircraft was intercepted over Latvia and fired on the Soviet fighters during the interception. After the fighters engaged the Privateer, the Soviets report that it descended sharply before crashing into the sea 5-10 kilometers off the coast. Wreckage was recovered, but the crew of John H. Fette, Howard W. Seeschaf, Robert D. Reynolds, Tommy L. Burgess, Frank L. Beckman, Joe H. Danens, Jack W. Thomas, Joesph Jay Bourassa, Edward J. Purcell and Joesph Norris Rinnier Jr. were missing and presumed killed.

24 April 1950 Soviet pilot Keleinikov claimed to have downed a US Air Force P-38 Lightning (F-82 Twin Mustang?).

April 1950 Soviet pilot P. Dushin claimed to have shot down a US Air Force B-26 Invader.

April 1950 Soviet pilot V. Sidorov claimed to have shot down a US Air Force B-26 Invader.

April 1950 Soviet pilot Nikolai N. Guzhov claimed to have shot down two US Air Force F-51 Mustangs.

May 1950 Soviet pilot V.S. Yefremov, flying a La-11 Fang, claimed to have shot down a US Air Force F-51 Mustang over the Chukotka Peninsula.

11 May 1950 Soviet pilot I.I. Shinkarenko claimed to have downed a US Air Force B-24 Liberator (PB4Y Privateer?).

14 July 1950 A US Air Force RB-29 was shot at near Permskoye airfield in the USSR, but escaped.

October-December 1950 A US Navy P2V Neptune of VP-6, piloted by Arthur Farwell, was intercepted at night by four Soviet MiG-15 Fagots, near Vladivostok. The Neptune's tail gunner opened fire and one MiG exploded.

4 December 1950 Soviet MiG-15 Fagots shot down an RB-45C Tornado of the US Air Force 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 45 miles east of Andung People's Republic of China (just across the Yalu River from Sinuiju North Korea). Soviet pilot Aleksandr F. Andrianov received credit for shooting down the aircraft. Co-pilot Jules E. Young and navigator James L. Picucci were killed in the crash. Pilot Charles E. McDonough and passenger John R. Lovell bailed out and landed south of the Yalu River. McDonough was badly burned when he landed on the Tornado's wreckage. Both were captured the next day by the North Koreans. McDonough was murdered during an interrogation by North Korean and Soviet officers two weeks later. Lovell survived brutal interrogation sessions, but was finally taken into a North Korean village, where the residents were encouraged to lynch him.

26 December 1950 Two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots, flown by S.A. Bakhev and N. Kotov shared in the downing of a US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress.

4 July 1951 A US Air Force RB-45C Tornado of the 323rd Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, based in Yokota Japan, conducted a night overflight 500 miles into Manchuria. The crew of Stacy D. Naftel, Edward Kendrex and Bob Dusenberry reported that they were attacked by MiG-15 Fagots while approaching their target in Harbin People's Republic of China. They managed to escaped damage by outrunning the intercepting fighters.

6 November 1951 While conducting an intelligence gathering mission, later claimed to be a "weather reconnaissance mission under United Nations command", a US Navy P2V-3W Neptune (BuNo 124283 - not 124284 as listed in some sources) of VP-6 was shot down over the Sea of Japan, near Vladivostok, by Soviet La-11 Fangs flown by I. Ya. Lukashyev and M.K. Shchukin. The Soviet pilots reported that they intercepted the aircraft in the area of Cape Ostrovnoy approximately 7-8 miles from the shore. After they fired on the aircraft, it fell, burning, into the water and exploded 18 miles from the shore. The crew of Judd C. Hodgson, Sam Rosenfeld, Donald E. Smith, Reuben S. Baggett, Paul R. Foster, Erwin D. Raglin, Paul G. Juric, William S. Meyer, Ralph A. Wigert Jr. and Jack Lively were reported as missing.

4 April 1952 A US Navy patrol bomber was damaged by gunfire from an unidentified trawler one hundred mile southeast of Shanghai People's Republic of China. On one was hurt and the plane returned safely to Taiwan.

29 April 1952 A DC-4 of Air France was shot at by two MiG-15 Fagots when approaching Berlin. The aircraft was damaged and three passengers wounded.

13 June 1952 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress (44-61810) of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, based in Yokota Japan, was shot down by Soviet fighters over the Sea of Japan, 18 miles from the Soviet coast, near Hokkaido. Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilots Fedotov and Proskurin reported intercepting the aircraft in the area of Valentin Bay, nine miles from the Soviet coastline. They reported that the RB-29 fired on the Soviet fighters, when intercepted. The Soviet pilots returned fire and the US plane descended, burst into flames and crashed into the water at a distance of about 18 miles from our coastline. Official US records state that the aircraft was on a classified surveillance mission of shipping activity over the Sea of Japan. The plane was followed by radar over the course of the flight until 1320 hours at which time the radar contact was lost. Empty life rafts were spotted by search aircraft the next day. Radio Moscow stated on June 16 stated that one officer survivor had been picked up by a Russian vessel about two days before. The name of the survivor was not given and efforts to confirm the report were unsuccessful. The crew of Sam Busch, Robert J. McDonnell, Roscoe G. Becker, Eddie R. Berg, Leon F. Bonura, William R. Homer, Samuel D. Service, James A. Sculley, William A. Blizzard, Miguel W. Monserrat , Danny Pillsbury and David L. Moore were all listed as missing, presumed dead.

13 June 1952 Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilot Captain Boris Osinsky, of the 483rd Fighter Aviation Regiment, shot down a Swedish SIGINT C-47 (Tp79 79001 Hugin) piloted by Alvar Almeberg, over the Baltic, near Ventspils Latvia. Everybody on board the C-47 was killed - the only wreckage found at the time was a life raft. The C-47 was one of two, (the other being 79002 Munin, both named after Odin's ravens), together with a Ju 86 called Blondie, which supposedly belonged to the so called 6 Transportflyggruppen at F 8, which at that time had a staff of twelve. In reality they were used for SIGINT duties, the C-47s fitted out with five operator stations, the operators belonging to FRA (Försvarets Radioanstalt = the Radio Establishment of the Defense). In June 2003, Swedish searchers found the wreckage of the C-47 on the bottom of the Baltic in international waters near Gotska Sandoen island, about 120 kilometers (75 miles) east of the Swedish coastline. The wreckage was raised during the night of March 19/20 2004 and returned to Sweden.

16 June 1952 Soviet pilots N. Semernikov and I. Yatsenko-Kosenko shared in the downing of a Swedish PBY Catalina (Tp 47 47002) outside the island of Dagö. The PBY was looking for survivors of the Swedish SIGINT C-47 lost on June 13th. After taking hits in the fuselage and the engines the PBY was forced to land on the water with two of the crew of seven injured. The crew was rescued by a German merchant ship.

31 July 1952 While conducting a patrol mission, a US Navy PBM-5S2 Mariner (BuNo 59277), of VP-731, based from Iwakuni Japan, was attacked by two People's Republic of China MiG-15 Fagots over the Yellow Sea. Two crew members were killed and two were seriously wounded. The PBM suffered extensive damage, but was able to make it safely to Paengyong-do Korea.

20 September 1952 A US Navy PB4Y-2S Privateer, of VP-28, was attacked by two Chinese MiG-15 Fagots off the coast of the People's Republic of China. One of the PLAAF pilots was Zhongdao He. The USN aircraft was able to safely return to Naha, Okinawa.

7 October 1952 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress Sunbonnet King (44-61815) of the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron was shot down over the Kurile Islands, between Yuri Island and Akiyuri Island, by two Soviet La-11 Fang fighters, flown by Alekseyevich Zhiryakov and Lesnov. The crew of eight, Eugene M. English, John R. Dunham, Paul E. Brock, Samuel A. Colgan, John A Hirsch, Thomas G. Shipp, Fred G. Kendrick and Frank E. Neail III, were all listed as missing, presumed dead. Soviet search and rescue units recovered the body of one crewman, John R. Dunham. His remains were initially buried on Yuri Island in the Kurile chain, but were returned to the US in the 1994.

8 October 1952 A US Air Force C-47 was fired on near Berlin Germany.

15 October 1952 A B-47 photo reconnaissance flight, authorized by President Truman and staged out of Eielson AFB, was flown over the Chukotsky Peninsula. It confirmed that the Soviets were developing Arctic staging bases on the peninsula from which their bombers could easily reach targets on the North American continent.

12 January 1953 A US Air Force B-29 Superfortress on a leaflet-dropping mission over Manchuria was shot down by a swarm of 12 enemy fighters. The plane was assigned to the 581st Air Resupply and Communications Wing and carried a crew of 14. After the attack, B-29 aircraft commander, John K. Arnold, ordered the crew to bail out. Unfortunately, three men died during the attack, but the other 11 parachuted to the ground, were captured and taken to China for interrogation and imprisonment. These men were not released until 1956.

18 January 1953 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune (BuNo 127744) of VP-22, based at Atsugi Japan, was damaged by Chinese anti-aircraft fire near Swatow People's Republic of China, but was able to ditch in the Formosa Strait. Eleven of thirteen crewmen were rescued by a US Coast Guard PBM-5 Mariner, under fire from Chinese shore batteries on Nan Ao Tao island. Attempting to takeoff in 8-12 foot swells, the PBM crashed. Ten survivors out of nineteen total (including five from the P2V-5) were rescued by the destroyer USS Halsey Powell (DD 686). During the search effort a PBM-5 Mariner from VP-40 received fire from a small-caliber machine gun and the destroyer USS Gregory (DD 802) received fire from Chinese shore batteries. Dwight C. Angell, Ronald A. Beahm, Paul A. Morley, William F. McClure, Lloyd Smith and Clifford Byars were the P2V-5 crewmen reported lost.

6 March 1953 People's Republic of China PLAAF pilot Yaxiong He claimed to have shot down a US Navy F4U Corsair at Qianlidao in Qingdao.

10 March 1953 Two US Air Force F-84G Thunderjets of the 36 TFW, based in West Germany, crossed into Czechoslovakian airspace. They were intercepted by Czech MiG-15 Fagots and one F-84G was shot down by Jaroslav Sramek. The pilot ejected and survived.

12 March 1953 Seven airmen are killed when the Royal Air Force Avro Lincoln Mk2 (RF531/C) they were flying in, was shot down by a Soviet MiG-15 Fagot in the Berlin air corridor, near Boizenberg, 20 miles NE of Luneburg. The aircraft, from the RAF Central Gunnery School at Leconfield in Yorkshire, was on a training flight. Among the crew members were H.J. Fitz, S.V. Wyles, W.R. Mason, R.F. Stevens and K.J. Jones.

15 March 1953 A US Air Force WB-50 Superfortress reconnaissance plane of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing was attacked by a pair of Soviet MiG-15 Fagots approximately 25 miles off the Kamchatka Peninsula, near Petropavlovsk. The WB-50 based at Forbes Air Force Base, Kansas, was temporarily operating from Eielson Air Force Base, Alaska, while assigned to the 15th WRS. After escorting the WB-50 for a short time, one Soviet pilot opened fire on the WB-50. WB-50 gunner Jesse Prim returned fire and the MiG pilot quickly broke off his attack and returned to his base.

17 March 1953 A British European Airways Viking was shot at by Soviet MiG-15 Fagots near Berlin Germany.

22 March 1953 A US Air Force B-50 was attacked by Soviet MiG-15 Fagots.

23 April 1953 A US Navy P4M-1Q Mercator (BuNo 124369) piloted by Dick Renner and Mel Davidow, was attacked by two MiG-15 Fagots while flying off the Chinese coast near Shanghai. The MiGs made a several firing runs and the crew of the Mercator returned fire. The Mercator was not hit, and as far as the crew of the Mercator could tell, their return fire did not damage the MiGs. William Haskins, the radioman on this Mercator, was later killed in the downing of another Mercator on August 22 1956.

15 May 1953 A Soviet MiG-15 Fagot opened fire on a US Air Force WB-29 Superfortress off the Kamchatka Peninsula. The WB-29's gunners returned fire. There were no casualties.

21 July 1953 Two Chinese MiGs damaged a US Navy PBM-5 Mariner in an attack that took place over the Yellow Sea.

29 July 1953 An US Air Force RB-50G Superfortress (47-145) Little Red Ass of the 343rd Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, temporarily attached to the 91st Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron based at Yokota Air Base, Japan, was shot down south of Askold Island near Vladivostok, by Soviet pilots Aleksandr D. Rybakov and Yuri M. Yablonskii, flying MiG-17 Frescos. The RB-50's tail gunner James E. Woods was able to fire a brief burst at the MiG-17s, but the fighters were able to avoid this fire and quickly downed the plane, shooting its left wing off. The co-pilot of the RB-50, John E. Roche, was the sole survivor of the 18 man crew, though as many as seven crew members might have successfully bailed out. After spending about 12 hours in the water, an SB-29 dropped an A-3 survival raft to Roche and the RB-50's pilot, Stanley K. O'Kelley. Roche was able to crawl into the survival raft, but O'Kelley succumbed to hypothermia. After another 10 hours in the survival raft, Roche was rescued by the USS Picking (DD 685). The remains of Stanley K. O'Kelley and Francis L. Brown were later recovered on the coast of Japan. The other crew, James G. Keith, Francisco J. Tejeda, Warren J. Sanderson, Robert E. Stalnaker, Lloyd C. Wiggins, Roland E. Goulet, Earl W. Radlein Jr., Charles J. Russell Jr., James E. Woods, John C. Ward, Edmund J. Czyz, Frank E. Beyer, Donald W. Gabree, Donald G. Hill and an unnamed Russian, were never found.

August 1953 A Royal Air Force Canberra, a modified B Mk.2, suffered damage during a reconnaissance flight over the Kapustin Yar missile base in the USSR. The aircraft aborted its mission and landed in Iran.

27 January 1954 A US Air Force RB-45 Tornado flying over the Yellow Sea with an escort of F-86 Sabres was attacked by eight MiG-15 Fagots. One MiG was shot down by USAF pilot Bertram Beecroft.

21 March 1954 Two US Navy AD-4 Skyraiders, from VA-145 and VC-35 Det F, lauched from the USS Randolph (CVA 15) launched on a simulated strike mission against a West German airfield. They were attacked over or near the Czechoslovak border by a Czech MiG-15 Fagot. One AD-4 received damage to its tail.

29 April 1954 A RB-45C Tornado operated by the Royal Air Force narrowly escaped being was shot down by antiaircraft fire near Kiev. The mission was aborted.

8 May 1954 Three US Air Force RB-47E Stratojet reconnaissance planes took off from RAF Fairford in England. Two of the Stratojets flew as airborne spares and turned back before the overflight began. The remaining plane penetrated Soviet airspace near Murmansk. The plane flew over numerous Soviet air fields and naval facilities conducting photographic reconnaissance and making radar scope images of the various facilities. The RB-47E continued to Arkhangelsk before turning west and heading back to England. The USAF plane was intercepted by MiG fighters after being over Soviet territory for about 50 miles. Initially, MiG-15 Fagots were spotted, but a short time later a flight of MiG-17 Frescos appeared. The operational deployment of the MiG-17 was a significant surprise to the crew of the RB-47. When the MiG-17s climbed to approximately the same altitude as the reconnaissance plane (38,000 feet) they opened fire. The Soviet fighters each made single shooting passes at the USAF plane. The RB-47 was equipped with a tail gun controlled by the copilot and returned fire but did not hit any of the Soviet planes. One MiG was able to hit the Stratojet with several rounds and caused moderate damage to the wing and fuselage. Before the MiGs were able to shoot down the USAF plane, it crossed the border into Finland and the MiGs broke off the attack. However, during the attack the RB-47's fuel tanks were hit and the plane nearly ran out of fuel before it was met by a Boeing KC-97 tanker for in-flight refueling. The RB-47E landed safely in England a short time later.

May 1954 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet of the 51st Strategic Reconnaissance Wing flying a photo reconnaissance mission over the Northern USSR exchanged gunfire with MiG-17 Frescos. The RB-47 was lightly damaged, but the crew of Hal Austin, Carl Holt and Vance Heavilin got home safely.

3 June 1954 A Belgian transport aircraft was shot at by MiGs over Yugoslavia and one crew member was killed.

26 July 1954 Two US Navy AD-4 Skyraiders from VF-54, piloted by William Alexander and John Zarious,were launched from the USS Philippine Sea (CVA 47) to look for survivors from the Cathay Pacific DC-4 shot down four days previously. They were attacked by two Chinese La-7 Fins. A number of other VF-54 AD-4 Skyraiders and a F4U-5N Corsair of VC-3 came to the aid of the USN aircraft. One La-7 was shot down by AD-4 pilots Roy Tatham and Richard Cooks. The other LA-7 was shot down by AD-4 pilots John Damien, John Rochford, Paul Wahlstrom and Richard Ribble and the F4U-5N pilot Edgar Salsig. A Chinese gunboat also fired upon the US aircraft, but no damage was sustained.

12 August 1954 Two US training planes were shot down over Czechoslovakia. The pilots were captured and held for several months.

4 September 1954 A US Navy P2V-5 of VP-19, operating from NAS Atsugi Japan was attacked 40 miles off the coast of Siberia by two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots. The aircraft ditched and one crew member, Roger H. Reid was lost. The other crew members, John B. Wayne, John C. Fischer, William A. Bedard, Frank E. Petty, Anthony P. Granera, Texas R. Stone, Paul R. Mulmollem, Ernest L. Pinkevich and David A. Atwell were rescued by a US Air Force SA-16 amphibian.

7 November 1954 A US Air Force RB-29 Superfortress reconnaissance aircraft was shot down by Soviet fighters, flown by Kostin and Seberyakov, near Hokkaido Island in northern Japan. The plane carrying a crew of eleven was conducting routine photographic reconnaissance near Hokkaido and the southern most of the disputed Kuril islands. The plane was attacked and seriously damaged, forcing the crew to bail out. Ten crewmen were successfully rescued after landing in the sea; however, the eleventh man drowned when he became entangled in his parachute lines after landing.

17 April 1955 Soviet MiG-15 Fagot pilots Korotkov and Sazhin shared in the downing of a US Air Force RB-47E Stratojet of the 4th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, flying from Eielson AFB, near Kamchatka. The crew of Lacie C. Neighbors, Robert N. Brooks and Richard E. Watkins Jr. were all presumed killed.

22 June 1955 A US Navy P2V-5 Neptune of VP-9 (BuNo 131515), flying a patrol mission from Kodiak Alaska, was attacked over the Bering Strait by two Soviet MiG-15 Fagots. The aircraft crash-landed on St. Lawrence Island after an engine was set afire. Of the eleven crew members, including pilot Richard F. Fischer, co-pilot David M. Lockhard, Donald E. Sonnek, Thaddeus Maziarz, Martin E. Berg, Eddie Benko, David Assard and Charles Shields, four sustained injuries due to gunfire and six were injured during the landing. The USA demanded $724,947 in compensation; the USSR finally paid half this amount.

24 December 1957 A US Air Force RB-57 was shot down over the Black Sea by Soviet fighters.

27 June 1958 A US Air Force C-118, reportedly on a regular supply flight from Wiesbaden West Germany to Karachi Pakistan, via Cyprus and Iran, crossed the Soviet border near Yerevan Armenia. Soviet MiG-17P Fresco pilots G.F. Svetlichnikov and B.F. Zakharov shot the aircraft down 30 km south of Yerevan. Five crew members parachuted to safety and four other survived the crash landing on a half-finished airstrip. The crew of Dale D. Brannon, Luther W. Lyles, Robert E. Crans, Bennie A. Shupe, James T. Kane, James N. Luther, James G. Holman, Earl H. Reamer and Peter N. Sabo were captured and later released by the Soviets on July 7, 1958. This aircraft was reported to be the personal aircraft of Allen Dulles, then director of the Central Intelligence Agency. The C-118 had carried senior CIA aides to Europe on an inspection trip, and it was in Turkey when it was diverted.

26 July 1958 A US Air Force RB-47, flying from Iran, was intercepted by Soviet fighters over the Caspian Sea 130 miles east-southeast of Astara. The RB-47 evaded the fighters and fled to safety.

25 August 1958 Republic of China Air Force F-86 Sabre pilots Tien-En Chiang and Hsu-Hsiang Ku each shot down a People's Republic of China PLAAF MiG-17 Fresco.

2 September 1958 A US Air Force C-130A Hercules (60-528) of the 7406 CSS, flying from Adana Turkey, was shot down near Sasnashen, Soviet Armenia, about 55 kilometers northwest of the Armenian capital of Yerevan by Soviet MiG-17 Fresco pilots Gavrilov, Ivanov, Kucheryaev and Viktor Lopatkov. The C-130 was a Sun Valley SIGINT aircraft. The remains of John E. Simpson, Rudy J. Swiestra, Edward J. Jeruss and Ricardo M. Vallareal were returned to the US on September 24, 1958. The remains of the other crew members, Paul E. Duncan, George P. Petrochilos, Arthur L. Mello, Leroy Price, Robert J. Oshinskie, Archie T. Bourg Jr., James E. Fergueson, Joel H. Fields, Harold T. Kamps, Gerald C. Maggiacomo, Clement O. Mankins, Gerald H. Medeiros and Robert H. Moore were recovered in 1998.

31 October 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked by Soviet fighters over the Black Sea. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

7 November 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked by Soviet fighters, east of Gotland Island over the Baltic Sea. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

17 November 1958 A US Air Force RB-47 Stratojet was attacked over the Sea of Japan by Soviet fighters. The crew of three were not injured and the aircraft returned safely to base.

1 May 1960 A CIA Lockheed U-2C (Article 360, 56-6693), flown by Francis Gary Powers from Peshawar Pakistan, was shot down by an SA-2 Guideline missile, near Sverdlovsk, USSR. Recent evidence says that Powers was shot down by the first of three missiles fired by a battery commanded by Mikhail Voronov. A Soviet MiG-19 Farmer pilot, Sergei Safronov, was shot down and killed by another SA-2 Guideline fired later in the incident. Powers bailed out and parachuted to safety. He was then taken captive and later tried in a Soviet court. After serving some time in prison, he was released, in exchange for Soviet spy Rudolf Abel on February 10th, 1962 in Berlin.

25 May 1960 A US Air Force C-47 was forced to land in East Germany by Soviet MiGs. The nine crew members were held captive until July 19th 1960.

1 July 1960 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet (53-4281) of the 38th Strategic Reconnaissance Squadron, 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over the Barents Sea was downed by Soviet pilot Vasili Poliakov, flying a MiG-15 Fagot. Co-pilot Bruce Olmstead and navigator John McKone survived and were taken captive. The pilot, Bill Palm and ELINT operators Eugene Posa, Oscar Goforth and Dean Phillips were killed. Olmstead and McKone were released from Soviet captivity on January 25th, 1961. Bill Palm's remains were returned to the US on July 25, 1960. Eugene Posa's remains were recovered by the Soviets, but never returned to the US.

24 September 1962 A US Air Force RB-47H, piloted by John Drost, was intercepted over the Baltic Sea by a Soviet MiG-19 Farmer.

27 October 1962 A US Air Force U-2A (Article 343, 56-6676) of the 4080th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, piloted by Rudolf Anderson, was shot down by a SA-2 Guideline missile over Cuba. Anderson was killed when shrapnel punctured his pressure suit, causing the suit to decompress at altitude, after the cockpit has already decompressed. He was posthumously awarded the Air Force Cross.

4 November 1962 A Russian-flown MiG-21 Fishbed intercepted two US Air Force F-104C Starfighters from the 479th Tactical Fighter Wing on a reconnaissance sortie near Santa Clara Cuba, but the F-104s disengaged and retired northward.

May 1963 Soviet MiG-17F Fresco pilot Steapnov, of the 156th IAP, shot down an Imperial Iranian Air Force Aerocommander 560. The IIAF crew members and a Colonel of the US Special Forces, were all killed.

24 January 1964 A US Air Force T-39 Sabreliner, based in Weisbaden West Germany, was shot down by a Soviet fighter over Thuringia, about 60 miles inside East Germany while on a training flight. The crew of three, Gerald Hannaford, John Lorraine and Donald Millard were killed.

10 March 1964 A US Air Force RB-66 Destroyer from the 10 TRW, based at Toul-Rosieres France, was shot down over East Germany by Soviet MiGs. The aircraft was shot down near Gardelegen, after straying out of one of the Berlin air corridors. The three crew members, David Holland, Melvin Kessler and Harold Welch parachuted to safety and were released several days later.







14 December 1965 A US Air Force RB-57F of the 7407 Support Squadron at Wiesbaden West Germany, was lost over the Black Sea, near Odessa. Pilot Lester L. Lackey and crew member Robert Yates were presumed killed. Recent investigations indicate that there might not have been any Soviet activity related to this loss. The crew probably perished from an oxygen system failure, since it took over an hour for the aircraft to spiral down from altitude and fall into the Black Sea. After 7 or 8 days spent searching for the aircraft, only small bits and pieces of wreckage were ever found.

1967 A US Air Force ERB-47H Stratojet of the 55th Strategic Reconnaissance Wing, flying over Iran, near the Soviet border, was reported to have been hit by a Soviet surface-to-air missile. The damaged aircraft managed to reach the mountains north of Tehran, but crashed before being able to land, killing the entire crew.

1 July 1968 A Seaboard World Airlines DC-8 carrying 214 US troops to Vietnam, from McChord Air Force Base, Washington, via Yokota Air Force Base, Japan was forced to land on Etoforu Island in the Kuril Island chain by Soviet fighters. Pilot Joseph Tosolini was warned by a Japan Self-Defense Force radar site on the northern island of Hokkaido that he had strayed off course and was headed for the Soviet Union. The warning came too late, as the aircraft had already been intercepted by MiGs flown by Yu.B. Alexandrov, V.A. Igonin, I.F. Evtoshenko and I.K. Moroz. A day later, after the Soviets received an apology for the incident, the aircraft and passengers were released.

21 October 1970 A US Air Force U-8 was lost over the USSR (Armenia). The crew of 4 were all rescued.

17 November 1970 A US Air Force KC-135R Briar Patch, piloted by James W. Jones, was intercepted by Soviet MiG-17 Frescos, while conducted a SIGINT flight over international waters near Vaygach Island. One of the MiG-17s fired warning shots, but the KC-135R ignored them and continued on its mission. The MiGs continued to escort the KC-135R, but did not fire on it again.

1971 A US Air Force C-130 Hercules was reported to have crashed near the Soviet border, in Iran.

10 August 1973 Israel Air Force Mirage IIICJs intercepted a Middle East Airlines Caravelle soon after it took off from Beirut and forced it to land at Lod airport in Israel. There, the Israeli authorities searched the aircraft for George Habash, the leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. However, Habash was not on board and the airliner was released.

28 November 1973 Soviet MiG-21SM Fishbed pilot Gennadii N. Eliseev intercepted an Imperial Iranian Air Force RF-4E Phantom II in Soviet airspace. After an unsuccessful attempt at firing a AA-2 Atoll missile at the Phantom, Eliseev destroyed the Phantom by ramming it. The Phantom's crew of IIAF pilot Major Shokouhnia and USAF backseater Saunders parachuted to safety and were captured by Soviet border guards. They were released 16 days later.

1977 An Imperial Iranian Air Force F-4E Phantom II was reported to have damaged a Soviet MiG-25R Foxbat over Iran with an AIM-7 Sparrow missile. The damaged Soviet aircraft managed to make it back over the Soviet border before crashing.

20 April 1978 A Korean Air Lines Boeing 707-321B (HL-7429, flight 902) flew over Murmansk while on a Anchorage-Paris flight, due to a navigation error. A Soviet PVO Su-15 Flagon, piloted by A. Bosov, intercepted it and fired an air-to-air missile at the airliner. The missile blew off part of the 707's wing and showered the fuselage with shrapnel, killing two passengers. The pilot of the 707, Captain Kim Chang Ky, reported that when he caught sight of' the Soviet interceptor he reduced speed, lowered his landing gear, and flashed his navigation lights on and off, all ICAO procedures signifying willingness to follow the Soviet interceptor. After his airliner was damaged, he descended through clouds to lower altitude and in doing so, he became separated from the Soviet interceptor. For more than an hour the airliner flew at an altitude of several thousand feet across the snow-covered terrain, seeking a safe landing place. The Soviets had no idea where he was. Several approaches to possible landing sites where aborted when obstructions were spotted at the last moment. Finally, after nightfall, the crew found a frozen lake bed, just west of Kem, and let down smoothly, skidding to a safe landing. Of the 97 passengers and 12 crew on board, two passengers were killed.

***1980 A Soviet Tu-95 Bear, flying from the USSR to Cuba entered US airspace and passed very close to Langley AFB in Virginia (it could be seen from the control tower). The aircraft was intercepted by F-15s from the US Air Force 1st TFW and escorted out of US airspace.

1 September 1983 A Korean Air Lines Boeing 747-230B (HL-7442, flight 007), was shot down over Sakhalin Island by AA-3 Anab missiles fired by a Soviet Su-15 Flagon piloted by Gennadi N. Osipovich. The aircraft was off-course, likely due to a navigation error and had already overflown the Kamchatka Pennisula. All 23 crew and 246 passengers (including US Congressman Lawrence McDonald from Georgia) were killed.

[millertime]

I think the truth is that these jets will probably do little more than help get CF pilots laid. The past 30 years the fighter force has been used little for little more than airshows and we saw how that turned out this year. They weren't even used in Afghanistan despite our Allies using fighters for close air support. Of course we need some sort of force to show we are serious about sovereignty so it appears that this is our best option. Its a shame we have to spend billions on nothing but this is the predicament we are in.

This shows how little you know about what we do on a day-to-day basis. Sovereignty operations happen quite often. Without Canadian fighters, American Fighters would do the intercepts.

The lack of overseas deployment isn't because of a lack of will within the fighter force, but because of the lack of will from the politicians to show an "agressive" stance. In the past 30 years, Canadian Fighter Pilots patrolled European Skies, fought in Gulf War I, fought in Kosovo and maintained Air Sovereignty of the Canadian Airspace.

Airshows account for less than 1% of my annual flying. But it is a necesssay evil (yes, I say evil, because I would rather use the flight time to train tactically and become more proficient at my job) because we need to show the public what we do and who we are.

Nor do I care like 99% of Canadians. All I care about is having a financially solvent country which is includes reasonable taxes. My day to day changes ZERO thanks to your hard work - thats the reality but my taxes do because of government policy. Its not like if you didnt perform a successful intercept Canadian cities would be suffering bombing attacks from Tu-95 Bears. You can get all pumped up with your fighter boys and act like heros but the reality is we live in the 21st century. These arctic war games highlight the fact that fighters are just a political tool that is expensive and a waste of resources. Imagine the $9 Billion spent on other areas like health care, education, senior care, world poverty, etc. It would benefit thousands and make significant difference in their lives. I think a JSF is a necessary evil but I think its a real shame we have blow billions on nothing.

[Shiny Side Up]

My day to day changes ZERO thanks to your hard work - thats the reality but my taxes do because of government policy.

You might be suprised how fast your day to day life might change if we didn't have Auxbaton and the rest of the CAF on duty. Very uneducated about your surroundings and how the world works.

[Moose47]

<<<millertime
Post subject: Re: Gov't announces JSF purchase
New postPosted: Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:03 pm
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I have met a number of people over the years who hold a grudge against the military because they could not meet the entry standards. Are you one of them?

[millertime]

Its not CAF, its CF and I am ex-CF. Did the RMC, pilot but switched JAG after tours Tutor and Hercs and then got out after I my obligatory service. Enjoyed my time and set me up for a great life but I saw a lot of budgetary waste. $9Billion is a lot of coin no matter how you spin it.

[teacher]

Sadly 9 billion is a drop in the bucket when it comes to health care etc....

[Darkwing Duck]

I am just sorry that the Gov't did not order more of the J-35's (Or what ever replacement they looked at for the CF-18) Over a 100 should of been on the books not 65. And as far as military expenditures go, we need to spend more coin, not less. Canada has a huge stake in domestic and international affairs and if that means a military assistance then so be it. That also means that the CFs have to be the best trained, which they are, with the best equipment for the job. We have a commitment to our nation and our allies to be able to be called upon when they are called upon. Oh a few nuke subs in the fleet as well.

Think of it this way. You are a corparate pilot flying a C550 over the Atlantic to Europe from say YYC, 15-20 times a year. While it can do this trip with several tech stops would you not want to have the right machine after a while to avoid the tech stops and do the jump in one or two legs?

[teacher]

Good points in this article so I thought I'd share it........


Tasha Kheiriddin: When defending the F-35, the government bombs again
Tasha Kheiriddin October 18, 2010 – 3:00 pm

If Prime Minister Stephen Harper thought last week was tough, the next seven days promise to be even nastier. On Monday the Hill Times revealed that the Memorandum of Understanding for Canada’s participation in the F-35 fighter jet consortium contains an opt-out clause with a maximum penalty of $551 million.

While this is a hefty price to pay, it is clearly capped by the MOU: “…in no event will a withdrawing participant’s total financial contribution, including contract termination costs, exceed that participant’s total share of the financial cost.” This contradicts Industry Minister Tony Clement’s recent implication that Canada risks hundreds of millions of dollars in lawsuits and lost jobs if we do not purchase the planes.
If the government has an ejector seat, why hasn’t it been upfront about it? Why didn’t Mr. Clement just say that in addition to the other repercussions of opting out, $551 million is too high a price to pay, and be done with it?

Memo to Mr. Harper: Not telling the truth, or the whole truth, simply gives the opposition openings for attack. It also gives the public the impression the government is in the dark, or, even worse, is lying.

Now the Liberals are sinking their teeth into the F-35 purchase like a rabid attack dog, promising they would hold a “competitive bidding process” if elected. This, of course, is technically impossible: there is no direct competition for the F-35, as it is the only fifth-generation fighter plane available to Canada (The American F-22 is not being offered for export). But if the government is also spinning like a drunken spider, who should the public believe?

The real question is whether Canada requires an aircraft with the F-35’s capabilities, or if a lesser plane would be adequate for our needs — defence, foreign policy and economic? That is the issue politicians must address, head on, and with no obfuscation. Military experts may be divided on the first point, but common sense tells us four things:

One, if other NATO countries have F-35s, and Canada doesn’t, we will not be able to participate fully in NATO missions. We will play second banana to nations who have the plane. If Canadians thought the UN kicked our country in the head last week, how would the international community view us if we trot out a fleet of brand new, but still obsolete, aircraft?

Two, if we really do want to defend the Arctic from a potential Russian challenge to our sovereignty, or any other nation, the same rule applies. Canadians do not want to be the Polish Cavalry facing down Nazi Panzers in 1939. While the horsemen may not have actually charged the tanks, as popular legend would have it, the result was still a bloodbath.

Three, while the F-35’s price tag sits at $16 billion, it needs to be put in context. Canada last ordered new fighter jets in 1980. Assuming we get the same life out of the F-35s, by the time they hit the runway, our old CF-18s will have been in service for almost 40 years. Thus the F-35’s cost works out to roughly $400-million per year of useful life, a small fraction of Canada’s current annual military budget.

Four, considering we only purchase fighter jets once every three or four decades, wouldn’t it make sense to purchase the top-level plane on offer today, instead of a lesser aircraft that may be obsolete or insufficient in ten years’ time? Assume that after much public soul-searching, the Liberals come to the same result and settle on the F-35. Our CF-18s will have become even older, risking malfunction and the lives of our pilots. On this one, the Conservatives are right to raise the spectre of the Sea King debacle.

The bottom line: If you want to play with the big boys, you need the big toys. Yes, there are questions about the F-35. Costs have escalated. Recent test runs have suffered mechanical failures. The production of the aircraft has been delayed. But pulling out of this deal to theoretically find another plane that we know would be second-class makes less sense than sticking with Plan A.

Those are the kind of arguments the government should be offering Canadians. Not that we cannot exit the consortium, or that it is unpatriotic to question the deal. Just that it would be stupid to do so, if we want the world to take our country and our military seriously, and because it’s the best equipment we can give our fighting men and woman. There’s no need to hide the truth about that.

National Post
tkheiriddin@nationalpost.com

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... mbs-again/

[alctel]

I don't agree with any of his points.

To his first point - what NATO missions is he talking about? All the European countries except for the UK will be using Typhoon's instead, and even then the UK will only have a very few F35s. Is it worth spending all this money just to wave our dicks around and say we can compete with the big boys?

His second point, artic sovereignty is complete crap as well. F35s are not going to help in that regard, they have a TON of maintenance problems that will be compounded operating in that environment, are only single engined and if Russia DOES magically decide to invade, I doubt 65 (or whatever) F35s will make an ounce of difference. I actually think Artic sovereignty is extremely important, but by wasting all this money that could be spent on things like patrol boats, research stations or more suitable aircraft we are actually weakening our claim in the long run.

His third point calls '400 million a year a fraction of the annual military budget', which last year was 18billion. That doesn't really seem like a fraction to me. It also completely ignores the massive maintenance costs these things come with. It's gonna be far more than 400 million a year.

As to his forth point, he completely ignores the other (much cheaper and actually in full production) viable alternatives out there, like the Typhoon, drones or some of the Russian stuff.

[AuxBatOn]

To his first point - what NATO missions is he talking about?

Were we talking about Afghanistan back in 2000? We cannot prepare for a mission. We need to prepare for any mission.

All the European countries except for the UK will be using Typhoon's instead, and even then the UK will only have a very few F35s.

à

I guess Italy, Turkey, The Netherlands, Norway and Denmark are not European countries anymore.

Is it worth spending all this money just to wave our dicks around and say we can compete with the big boys?

It's not about dick waving. It's about being ready to operation at the International Level.

F35s are not going to help in that regard, they have a TON of maintenance problems that will be compounded operating in that environment

You work for LM? How do you know about the maintenance problems of an aircraft that is not on the production lines yet?

are only single engined

From a pilot point of view, it's not a comfortable feeling, I agree. However, they can do the job as well as our Hornets. Some will say they don't have the legs, but neighter do our Hornets (or any fighter). Tanker supports exists.

if Russia DOES magically decide to invade, I doubt 65 (or whatever) F35s will make an ounce of difference.

It's not about invasion. It's about affirming our presence in our Northern Airspace. How are you going to greet the Russians in their TU-95 if we don't have fighters? If we don't do it, the Americans will do it... Over our heads. We need fighters.

I actually think Artic sovereignty is extremely important, but by wasting all this money that could be spent on things like patrol boats, research stations or more suitable aircraft we are actually weakening our claim in the long run.

Yes, yes. Your patrol boat will meet and greet with Russian bombers.....

His third point calls '400 million a year a fraction of the annual military budget', which last year was 18billion. That doesn't really seem like a fraction to me. It also completely ignores the massive maintenance costs these things come with. It's gonna be far more than 400 million a year.

It is 2.2%. Yes, it's a fraction. The 16 Billions includes maintenance contracts.

As to his forth point, he completely ignores the other (much cheaper and actually in full production) viable alternatives out there, like the Typhoon, drones or some of the Russian stuff.

I will not even comment on the "Russian stuff"... I believe it speaks for itself as to why we will not buy Russian... As far as drones (you probably mean UCAV, since a drone is a completely autonomous machine (ie: no human interraction in flight)), none of them have what we need on a combat airplane... yet. It will come, just not this time.

The Government (and the Air Force) came up with a list of requirements for the Next Generation Fighter. After analysis, it was decided that the JSF is the only plane that meets or exceeds all those requirements (hence the sole-sourcing). Do you have an idea of what those requirements are? Or are you just talking BS???

[Big Pistons Forever]

The F35 is a symptom of a bigger problem. Before you buy the expensive kit you have to have a rational defense policy. Before you can have a rational defense policy you have to have a rational, coherent and comprehensive foreign policy. Ask any average Canadian what out nations foreign policy goals are and I am sure you will not find anybody who could tell you. It is even worse for defense. The sad fact is the vast majority of canadians living in their fire proof house thousands of miles from any ignition source, don't care enough to demand the government explain why the only written defense policy statement is the "White Paper on Defense", written in 1994. We are the only G20 nation that has a 16 year old defense policy. Maybe before we commit 1/4 of the next 20 years worth of Military capital procurement dollars to the F35 we might want to ask exactly why we need this aircraft and how exactly we are going to use it.

Bottom line you want to shut up a yappy member of Parlement bothering you at your door before next Spring's election ........ask him to explain exactly and with specific details how buying the F35 supports the national defense policy and how it will directly contribute to the national security interests of Canadians, the whole reason we have a Military in Canada.

[star57]

What a waste of funds!!!

We will be ready when Al Kaida finds a way to infiltrate our security

[alctel]

Were we talking about Afghanistan back in 2000? We cannot prepare for a mission. We need to prepare for any mission.

Yeah, but what will require a 5th generation fighter bomber in the next ten years? And even in Afghanistan, our air force wasn't used.

I guess Italy, Turkey, The Netherlands, Norway and Denmark are not European countries anymor

Fair point! But when was the last time they used their air force?

It's not about dick waving. It's about being ready to operation at the International Level.

What does that even mean? If we want to follow the Americans and bomb some more weddings over in the middle east, drones do the job just as well and are vastly cheaper. And there is no chance of a war against anyone that we'd need to use the a2a capability of the aircraft for.

You work for LM? How do you know about the maintenance problems of an aircraft that is not on the production lines yet?

The maintenance problems are pretty well know, a lot of them are related to the fancy 'stealth' paintjob it has, same as the F22.

From a pilot point of view, it's not a comfortable feeling, I agree. However, they can do the job as well as our Hornets. Some will say they don't have the legs, but neighter do our Hornets (or any fighter). Tanker supports exists.

This was a good chance to get some planes that are more suited to the environment

It's not about invasion. It's about affirming our presence in our Northern Airspace. How are you going to greet the Russians in their TU-95 if we don't have fighters? If we don't do it, the Americans will do it... Over our heads. We need fighters.

There are a lot better ways to affirm our presence in Northern airspace than buzzing around with a handful of expensive, short ranged and fragile fighters. Like having ice breakers, patrol vessels, research stations, and a bunch of less expensive, more durable fighters buzzing around.

Yes, yes. Your patrol boat will meet and greet with Russian bombers.....

Not by itself, but in combination with other things it will form a pretty decent claim to the area. Remember, the disputed area is actually the seabed.

It is 2.2%. Yes, it's a fraction. The 16 Billions includes maintenance contracts

which have been greatly underestimated
.

I will not even comment on the "Russian stuff"... I believe it speaks for itself as to why we will not buy Russian... As far as drones (you probably mean UCAV, since a drone is a completely autonomous machine (ie: no human interraction in flight)), none of them have what we need on a combat airplane... yet. It will come, just not this time.

The Government (and the Air Force) came up with a list of requirements for the Next Generation Fighter. After analysis, it was decided that the JSF is the only plane that meets or exceeds all those requirements (hence the sole-sourcing). Do you have an idea of what those requirements are? Or are you just talking BS???

[/quote]

I don't think anyone has any idea what these requirements were, that's part of the problem. What exactly DO we need on a combat airplane?

[AuxBatOn]

Yeah, but what will require a 5th generation fighter bomber in the next ten years? And even in Afghanistan, our air force wasn't used.

Who knows. That was my point. We can't predict the future. However, we can prepare for a reasonable threat. My point was more along the lines of the "we don't know when and how we will need our military".

Fair point! But when was the last time they used their air force?

Italy: Kosovo, Afghanistan
Netherlands: Kosovo, Afghanistan, Balkans
Denmark: Kosovo, Afghanistan, Baltic
Turkey: Constant fight with Greece, Kosovo, Iraq
Norway: Afghanistan, Baltic

That is only the fighter forces, not including transport and helos. BTW, we did use our Air Force in Afghanistan, providing Air Mobility and tactical flying (Griffons and Chinooks).

What does that even mean? If we want to follow the Americans and bomb some more weddings over in the middle east, drones do the job just as well and are vastly cheaper.

We cannot just prepare for the war we are fighting now. We need to prepare for any war that we may fight in the future. Given what's going on on the international scene, I would not be surprised to see more conventionnal fighting going on.

And there is no chance of a war against anyone that we'd need to use the a2a capability of the aircraft for.

Really? Remember Kosovo? 10 years ago. People got shot at by airplanes.

The maintenance problems are pretty well know, a lot of them are related to the fancy 'stealth' paintjob it has, same as the F22.

It's still in the testing program. That is normal. The paintjob isn't the same as the Raptor...

This was a good chance to get some planes that are more suited to the environment

Really? What do you know that many people in the Air Force doesn't know?

There are a lot better ways to affirm our presence in Northern airspace than buzzing around with a handful of expensive, short ranged and fragile fighters. Like having ice breakers, patrol vessels, research stations, and a bunch of less expensive, more durable fighters buzzing around.

It's not about affirming our presence. It's about defending our airspace. 2 different concepts. How the hell you do prevent a TU-95 or heaven forbit a Blackjack from entering our airspace with boats and researt stations?

Not by itself, but in combination with other things it will form a pretty decent claim to the area. Remember, the disputed area is actually the seabed.

Because the area disputed is the seabed doesn't mean we need to abandon the airspace.

which have been greatly underestimated

Actually, the 16B$ is what the deal is. No underestimation.

I don't think anyone has any idea what these requirements were, that's part of the problem. What exactly DO we need on a combat airplane?

We need a self-escort striker (ie: multi-role). Why? Because we cannot afford a striker and an air superiority platform.

I'm just curious as to what experience you have to support your claims? I have a few hundreds hours on Hornets (and I still fly the Hornet) and I have been flying fast jets for a few years.

[2R]

It is just wrong to send troops/pilots/sailors into harms way with inferior equipment ,when superior equipment is available.
Yap all you want about how much it costs to win ,but try and consider what the cost is when you lose.
Losing costs everthing .Look at what happened to the Canadian soldiers that where not given the opportunity to fight and forced to surrender to the Japanese in WW2.No warm cozy shacks in the chilcotins for them to survive the war in ,just a bug infested disease ridden camp to die in.Those boys paid in blood for political stupidity of the penny pinching politicians of the day.No apologies from those who sent them or those who abused and killed them.
Anybody who thinks we should send our troops to war in a Chevy should be tied to the hood to catch the first incoming rounds.

[modi13]

While we're at it, why don't we issue our soldiers Ross rifles? They would be way cheaper to produce than C7s. And since a few thousand soldiers wouldn't do anything to stop the Russians in the event of an invasion, and couldn't protect the Arctic, especially against Bears, it won't make any difference what type of weapons the infantry has. Not that we're going to be in another war ever again, since I can see the future and know the geopolitical situation in 2050.

[Moose47]

<<<modi13
Post subject: Re: Gov't announces JSF purchase
New postPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:44 am
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Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2009 7:49 pm
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While we're at it, why don't we issue our soldiers Ross rifles? They would be way cheaper to produce than C7s. >>>

You mean the same Ross Rifles that cost the lives of many Canadian soldiers because they were poorly made and could not operate effectively in the trenches under adverse conditions?