The Light-Sport Advantage?

[5x5]

It amazes me that TC is still dragging its heels when it comes to officially recognizing LSAs here in Canada. I don't believe that LSAs are the total answer to all of GA's problems, but they do add a lot of options and some nice innovations. They also provide a much wider range of choices for the flying public. Some could also be very attractive in the flight training business.

So what got me going on this today? I just read an ad from Liberty Aerospace with the following excerpt:

The Liberty XL2 is now Certified in the following countries:

USA, Australia, China, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Thailand & EASA Countries Including Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Liechtenstien, Lithuania, Luxemburg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, & the United Kingdom

Is there any country that is noticeable by its absence? I guess the mavens (heavy sarcasm) at TC must sleep well at night knowing they are smarter than virtually all the rest of the world.

[Expat]

Yes...Russia...

[iflyforpie]

You could (can) buy a Flight Designs CT LSA and fly it as an ultralight here in Canada though...

[matt777]

You can still buy LSA in Canada, they're just considered Advanced Ultralights

[iflyforpie]

You can still buy LSA in Canada, they're just considered Advanced Ultralights

Only if they make the weight limitations and other criteria. You cannot operate a Cessna 162 as an AULA...

[Shiny Side Up]

You can still buy LSA in Canada, they're just considered Advanced Ultralights

Only if they make the weight limitations and other criteria. You cannot operate a Cessna 162 as an AULA...

Which sort of defeats the point of LSA flying, which I haven't fully understood as of yet. The whole concept of the LSA seems to be to open up aviation to a larger public, but the purchace cost of most LSAs is well up around the cost of fully certified aircraft. The Skycatcher for instance has a purchace price of $125,000. It just doesn't seem to make much sense if the goal is to save money by doing a license which has less requirements - essentially saving some money on dual instruction to spend extra money to get into one of these aircraft.

I can see the appeal of their good performance and nice looks, but really, money wise it doesn't make sense. The only real advantage I see is requiring less of pilots to get into the air... Which we already do with the UPP and RPP. Do we really need to make an easier way to get into the air? The low time and no flight test for the UPP already seems pretty lax.

[Shiny Side Up]

Ok, I know this is an American thing, but so far I'm really puzzled by it. All the flying mags are making a big buzz about these machines and I know a few people up here who've bought some of them and are operating them as Advanced Ultralights. Don't get me wrong when I say it but I don't really understand how they make flying more affordable - is there something they don't have to do that I'm missing? Is there some cost that they're saving? I understand the lower fuel burns/higher performance in most cases, I get the less maintenance requirements, but the simple fact remains - They have exceedingly high purchace costs.

I don't understand the advantage of purchacing a $100,000 dollar plus machine - which remember is a two seater to save money when there's so many affordable used aircraft out there. Even purchasing some of the new certified airplanes aren't that much more.

Reading one of the latest Plane and Pilot Mags there's a guy claiming he's made his flying more affordable by trading his Piper Arrow for the New Piper LSA at a $50,000 net loss. Maybe my math is wrong, but $50,000 buys a lot of fuel. Maybe I just don't understand something or is the pride of "new" ownership really worth that much to the GA market that its going to drive an increase in flying activity out there?

[Big Pistons Forever]

Aviation Consumer, which is a US subscriber only (ie no advertising revenue) magazine not afraid to piss folks off by not sugar coating the facts, did a study on LSA's. From their research the majority of the LSA buyers were rich old guys who did not want the hassle of keeping an FAA medical, and were trading down from 210's , Bonanza's etc. When they looked at LSA use in schools they found that on balance the rental rates were no cheaper than the old standard trainers like C150's because of the cost of financing the $100,000 plus purchase price, much higher insurance premimums, and the fact that they were the same or even more expensive to maintain on a per hour basis.

I think it is now obvious that the LSA is a niche market and will never meet the hype that it represents a break through in the hunt for a new cheap accesable way to get into the air.

[dcabrown]

From a cost/performance perspective, LSA is purely a marketing gimmick in the US. There is no advantage to it, other than what has been stated above by BPF.

Rich old guys can still fly around without potentially losing their medicals.

One of the goals of LSA was originally to have a MAX price of $100K. The reality is that I have probably seen only a half dozen or so LSA priced under $100K with some going well into the mid-high $100K range.

[righthandman]

I agree that it's a "gimmick" but flying should at least still be fun (for those who can afford it mind you).

Take a look at this beauty: http://www.iconaircraft.com/

[iflyforpie]

Prices. Yes, they're expensive, but have you looked at what a new 152 costs these days? Wait, what about a new 172? DA20? Cirrus SR20? All of a sudden, 100-120 for a CT or a 162 isn't so bad. We all know you can buy something used cheaper, but some people have their heart set on new.

Maintenance. Not just being able to do it yourself here in Canada under AULA rules, but having newer technology and airframes available that weren't designed and/or built in the 1960s. Maintenance downtime and unpredictable bills can be a big bother for certified aircraft owners.

Technology. You don't need to break the bank to have technology where in certified world it is the cost of materials, plus the cost of development and certification divided by the number of units they hope to sell with maybe a profit in there somewhere.

The medical thing is pretty obvious, and when you see the numbers of certified aircraft for sale because of medical purposes, it is a very valid reason.

Performance. Something like a Flight Designs CT gets 182 speeds at 152 fuel burns.


I'm sure that the marketing wave is responsible for a certain amount of it. If I was looking for something in the LSA size range, I would probably get a 150 or something more fun like a Champ because yeah, you can buy a lot of fuel and insurance for the 80,000 difference.

[mark_]

Advantage or not...that Piper Sport is one sharp looking bird.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rv8TUWpbJx8

Mark

[Posthumane]

There are several potential advantages to light sport aircraft when it comes to accessibility and affordability. From a pilot's point of view, not requiring a medical is a big bonus, especially for the older retired folks. There is also a lower requirement for flight training, similar to a sport pilot permit in Canada (and, I think, with similar restrictions).

From a manufacturer's standpoint it should be much easier to make a cheaper airplane, since it does not require FAA certification. It only has to conform to ATSM standards, making it basically a self regulated industry. However, as can be seen, the planes are not necessarily that much cheaper because a) Most manufacturers are designing for performance rather than low cost, and b) because they can be.

[AEROBAT]

The only advantage the LSA has going for it is the "drivers licence" medical. In Canada you can do the same thing with a Recreational Permit and fly a Bonanza if you want. The only restriction is one passenger and no night/IFR. For once we have got it right.

[AEROBAT]

There are several potential advantages to light sport aircraft when it comes to accessibility and affordability. From a pilot's point of view, not requiring a medical is a big bonus, especially for the older retired folks. There is also a lower requirement for flight training, similar to a sport pilot permit in Canada (and, I think, with similar restrictions).

From a manufacturer's standpoint it should be much easier to make a cheaper airplane, since it does not require FAA certification. It only has to conform to ATSM standards, making it basically a self regulated industry. However, as can be seen, the planes are not necessarily that much cheaper because a) Most manufacturers are designing for performance rather than low cost, and b) because they can be.

Ultralights and home built aircraft do not require FAA certification either. The FAA is not the price barrier. To build a turn key airplane for sale, and make money on the low volume, is not cheap.

[flyinggreasemonkey]

Diamond brings a lot of jobs and money to Canada...maybe they've got TC in their back pocket to cut down on competitors.

[fleet16b]

My 2 cents worth

From my veiw I see definite advantages to both the LSA and the RPP deals
First off the RPP in Canada is an excellent idea and an affordable way for people to get flying.Remember not everyone wants to become an airline pilot and here in Canada we have steadily seen an increase in amount of training (some of which is not necessary)which means an increase in cost. The RPP addresses this issue
If done properly, the LSA can really work. I personally would not go out and buy a new Katana or some other modern composite aircraft. Why ?
Well I have been selling and buying a/c and a/c parts for 35 years and have a fair idea of what is a good investment and what is not
Example you buy a homebuilt or an ultralight, fly it a few years then decide to upgrade. You will almost never get the money back.
Now buy a Champ or J3 Cub, do the same sell it and you will make a profit in most cases.
I have always said buying and selling a/c has bank interest beat all to heck.
My first Cub was 8k , I flew it for 5 years then took it apart for restoration and then sold it for 16k in pieces ! . Now what bank can give you that kind of turnaround for your money?
Bottom line there are many cheap affordable a/c that can make the LSA system work but they may not be new a/c.
Most of the modern LSA market are composite a/c that look nice but do not resell very well.
Sure they are fast, comfortable and modern but usually a bad investment in the long run
LSA was originally developed to attract people that normally could not afford to fly not for the old guys that want to keep flying and buy a 100k composite a/c but hey they have as much right as the rest of us. If the old guys are the only one taking advantage of this opportunity then maybe LSA is not being marketed properly to attract younger people.

[Posthumane]

Ultralights and home built aircraft do not require FAA certification either. The FAA is not the price barrier. To build a turn key airplane for sale, and make money on the low volume, is not cheap.

It's true that ultralights do not require certification, but the US does not have an advanced ultralight category like Canada. As far as I know, all they have is basic ultralights limited to about 250lbs or so, requiring absolutely no license at all to fly. However, these can hardly be called practical aircraft for anyone wanting to do more than spend a sunday afternoon doing some low and slow sightseeing in calm winds.

Homebuilts obviously don't need certification either, but they have downside that the owner has to take the time to build them. A lot of people do not want to spend 500-3000 hours building, but just want to go fly. And homebuilts many times ARE a lot cheaper than any certified aircraft of equivalent performance. A lot of people also don't trust something that they or someone else built in their garage, preferring something that is "mass produced" by a "real" airplane company.

Certification and all the hassle that goes with it is not a trivial matter. It isn't the most expensive part of producing an aircraft, but it is a significant cost. This is why certified aircraft designs are so slow to change over the years.

[mark_]

I agree that it's a "gimmick" but flying should at least still be fun (for those who can afford it mind you).

Take a look at this beauty: http://www.iconaircraft.com/

That thing is beautiful...I agree...but scary too! Foldable wings that aren't certified? Yikes!

Mark