graphic / chart of this?

[light chop]

When a NOTAM pops up like this and it's not depicted on a paper chart, is there somewhere that shows a graphical depiction of it?

CZEG DESIGNATED AIRSPACE HANDBOOK IS AMENDED AS FOLLOWS:
CLASS E EQUIVALENT AIRSPACE FOR WAINWRIGHT MILITARY
TERMINAL CONTROL AREA IS ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS:
AREA 1:
THE AIRSPACE WITHIN THE AREA BOUNDED BY A LINE BEGINNING
AT 525702N 1115407W THENCE CLOCKWISE ALONG THE ARC OF A CIRCLE
OF 30 NM RADIUS CENTRED ON 524950N 1110602W
(WAINWRIGHT/WAINWRIGHT(FIELD 21) AD) TO 531242N 1113807W
TO 525719N 1101804W THENCE CLOCKWISE ALONG THE ARC OF
A CIRCLE OF 30 NM RADIUS CENTRED ON 524950N 1110602W
(WAINWRIGHT/WAINWRIGHT(FIELD 21) AD) TO 524842N 1101637W
TO 525455N 1105110W TO POINT OF ORIGIN.
700 FT AGL TO 5000 FT MSL.
AREA 2:
THE AIRSPACE WITHIN THE AREA BOUNDED BY A LINE
BEGINNING AT: 525702N 1115407W TO 525455N 1105110W
TO 524842N 1101637W THENCE CLOCKWISE ALONG THE ARC
OF A CIRCLE OF 30 NM RADIUS CENTRED ON 524950N 1110602W
(WAINWRIGHT/WAINWRIGHT (FIELD 21)AD) TO POINT OF ORIGIN,
EXCLUSIVE OF CYR203.
700 FT AGL TO 11,000 FT MSL.
EXTV LOW/MED LVL JET AND HELI TRAFFIC.
CTC TML 122.525 VHF /273.5 UHF OR WAINWRIGHT(FIELD 21)
TWR 126.2 VHF /261.0 UHF FOR TFC ADVISORY
1009201200 TIL 1010032359

[AuxBatOn]

Can't you plot it on a map?

[aviator2010]

easier to beg fogivness than ask permission, claim confution

[light chop]

Sure, you can plot it on a map or in google earth/map etc. but it's a pain in the a$$. Could write some software to do it too I suppose. Just thought there might be some graphical depiction on Nav Canada site or somewhere, sometimes just want to have a quick look to see size/shape/boundaries.

[into the blue]

No way around it: you've just gotta pull out a ruler and a compass .

[5400AirportRdSouth]

Ok, maybe I'm just spoiled, but the lack of a graphical depiction of this sort of thing gives me the impression there are still folks in the basement of Navcanada facilities pushing around little airplanes on a big map with sticks a al WWII.

Seriously, in todays age, with the tools and skills available to, oh, say, your average 8 year old, how hard would it be??

[Samson]

Jesus. It's 2010. This teletype bs is getting old. Just go at 500 AGL.

[linecrew]

Ok, maybe I'm just spoiled, but the lack of a graphical depiction of this sort of thing gives me the impression there are still folks in the basement of Navcanada facilities pushing around little airplanes on a big map with sticks a al WWII.

Seriously, in todays age, with the tools and skills available to, oh, say, your average 8 year old, how hard would it be??

Since there's no graphical capability in NOTAMs they do the DAH text thing...but this is only temporary until all of the charts get updated on the next publication cycle and then you'll have your visual depiction. In the meantime, you gots to plot it out aviator.

[benoit.baril]

Just go at 500 AGL.

Nah. Just call it a weather hold!!!

[trey kule]

light chop

I normally dont want to comment on this type of thread but unfortunately there are a few of the Keyboard Captains here offering some really stupid and dangerous one liners.

Mortar shells, artillery shells, low flying aircraft. All to be found there. Not unusual for Mortar and artillery sheels to reach 12000 feet. Flying over there under the assumption that it is better to beg forgiveness is a stupid stupid idea. This Notam is there for a good reason. Dont ignore it.

I realize you may feel it is just to much trouble to plot it. The CAF gives NavCanada the particulars and they pass it on. People have gone to alot of trouble to keep you safe.
Please ignore the idiototic advice some are giving. And take the time and trouble to make sure you dont stray into the area.....or those same idiots will be quick to post how stupid you were that you counld not even comply with a set of simple instructions.

[light chop]

Yup, thanks Trey Kule, as always the BS filter is set to high when asking a question here

Thought maybe I was doing it the old/hard way figuring it out manually, just thought there might be some graphic of it somewhere that I wasn't aware of.

I know when they changed the CYR's down by Suffield AB recently there were a few aviators straying into those, Nav Can posted a AIP supplement (if I remember correctly) with a map showing where the new areas were.

These things pop up in the summer time with forest fires, etc. - it would be great if the AWWS website had a tab with a graphic that showed all of them.

In the US, don't TFR's show up live via XM satellite on proper receivers?

[StudentPilot]

I'm sure that between TC and NavCanada there are absolutely no employees that have a spare 15 minutes to plot the area and add a URL at the end of the NOTAM to make this and similar NOTAMs more user friendly. While we're at it we had best go back to FAs, those GFAs are a far too easy to use to be for aviation use.

[swordfish]

This NOTAM - typical of the CYA (cover-your-ass) attitude of many NOTAMs - reminds me of how the CARs Flight & Duty Times regs are written: the most convoluted and difficult to read & interpret & understand in the Western World.

If you're a medivac pilot, charter pilot, or 704 sched pilot, you certainly do not have the time to go & find a VFR chart, find a compass, ruler, microscope, and tweezers, plot all those complex co-ordinates on it, and draw the appropriate circles & arcs....then see if your intended flight path would encroach on the defined area.

THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER WAY!!

Suggestions:

1.The URL proposed by student pilot is certainly one of the simplest, but that puts the burden of liability on NavCanada or the Military Ops to ensure THEY got the diagram right. Let's hope they know what area they're talking about....

2. Describe it in simple terms - i.e. so many nautical miles from here to there, expressing the points in commonly-known aeronautical place names.

3. Simplify the target area, and explain what the hazards are.

4. Examine the need to put this in a NOTAM. How about a Notice of Amendment to the Wainwright MTCA to the effect that Class E is going to be established "roughly in this area: ...." and the exact boundaries are going to be defined in the DAH on such-&-such a date. Explain the hazards.

I note that trey kule says that hazards exist up to 12,000'. Area 1 says the upper limit is 5,000', and area 2 says 11,000 feet. When the military decides to incorporate these kinds of changes to the airspace, is any thought given to the impacts it will have on general and commercial aviation in the area, or consultation and liaison with NavCanada and TC? For example, can these firing ranges (if that is indeed the hazard) be established in unused or low-usage airspace nearby, away from converging IFR routes and intersections, like those around Wainwright (I actually don't have a LE1/2 handy as I write this)?

[Samson]

If this airspace is really due to mortar shells, artillery shells, etc. why is the floor 700 AGL and not surface level? I see nothing suggesting the area can't safely be traversed at 500 AGL and that would be my first choice if weather or winds were preventing me go over top of it at 11500.

[AuxBatOn]

That's the MTCA, the military terminal control area in Wainwright. Nothing to do with the range itself. I believe it is to facilitate the traffic to and from Wainwright, going to the range for army support.

Yes, the military coordinates closely with NavCanada for all the airspace they own and how to improve the traffic flow (ie: giving the airspace to NavCanada when we don't use it).

I call BS on the "I don't have time to plot it if I fly Medevac". If you fly in the vicinity of the aerodrome, you should take 2 minutes of your down time to plot it. I am on alert sometimes and that is not an excuse not to be ready for a possible scramble and the safe conduct of the flight. I plan before I am scrambled for most places I could go. If you really "don't have time", then ask ATC to vector you around. It ain't rocket science.

[swordfish]

I call BS on the "I don't have time to plot it if I fly Medevac". If you fly in the vicinity of the aerodrome, you should take 2 minutes of your down time to plot it. I am on alert sometimes and that is not an excuse not to be ready for a possible scramble and the safe conduct of the flight. I plan before I am scrambled for most places I could go. If you really "don't have time", then ask ATC to vector you around. It ain't rocket science.

We are on a 45-minute window from the call to wheels up. We do not have time...particularly with the BS going on with CYXD at present. However, I rarely fly to the Wainwright area these days, but it will surprise me if other medivac services in that area are not also on 45-minute getaway also.

The point is that anyone going there, near there, or around there needs something that is easily and readily interpreted...which THAT NOTAM is not.

You can certainly ask for vectors around any MOA; you can even call ahead. You're right - a no-brainer. Then why mention it? Ever tried to get vectors around Cold Lake from Buffalo Narrows to Edmonton? Good luck....

[AuxBatOn]

We are on a 45-minute window from the call to wheels up. We do not have time...particularly with the BS going on with CYXD at present. However, I rarely fly to the Wainwright area these days, but it will surprise me if other medivac services in that area are not also on 45-minute getaway also.

The point is that anyone going there, near there, or around there needs something that is easily and readily interpreted...which THAT NOTAM is not.

You can certainly ask for vectors around any MOA; you can even call ahead. You're right - a no-brainer. Then why mention it? Ever tried to get vectors around Cold Lake from Buffalo Narrows to Edmonton? Good luck....

Make it look more complicated than it is, I don't care. I'm on a much stricter timeline than yours and yet, I still have 2 minutes to look at pertinent notams and figure them out BEFORE I AM CALLED TO GO. Take 2 minutes before you're on duty and you'll be fine.

I asked vectors around airspace before, I never had an issue. Worst comes worst, stay 30 nm away from Wainwright and you'll be okay (the NOTAMS talks bout 30 NM, not farther) . Regardless, if you're under an IFR, they will not let you fly through it.

[aileron]

...Ever tried to get vectors around Cold Lake from Buffalo Narrows to Edmonton? Good luck....

LOL! I think most people attempt vectors out of CYVT whenever they can...

[fish4life]

i don't think its a very popular military flying spot lol

[TG]

The States are in advance
http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/TFR.cfm
Sure, there is a disclaimer somewhere about the pilot still being responsible.

Hopefully, it will eventually come up this way in Canada too.

A bit like the graphical forecast. Wasn't graphical at all not so long ago.

[Fresh Prince of King Air]

If I can figure out how to do this, there must be someone at Nav Canada that can figure it out....

http://www.romeonav.com/map.html

[Samson]

You sir are a scholar and a gentleman.

[StudentPilot]

It may not take long to plot (and anyone flying in the area would be smart to plot it on their charts), but it sure would be more user-friendly.

CZEG DESIGNATED AIRSPACE HANDBOOK IS AMENDED AS FOLLOWS:
CLASS E EQUIVALENT AIRSPACE FOR WAINWRIGHT MILITARY
TERMINAL CONTROL AREA IS ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS:
...
EXCLUSIVE OF CYR203.
700 FT AGL TO 11,000 FT MSL.
EXTV LOW/MED LVL JET AND HELI TRAFFIC.
CTC TML 122.525 VHF /273.5 UHF OR WAINWRIGHT(FIELD 21)
TWR 126.2 VHF /261.0 UHF FOR TFC ADVISORY
1009201200 TIL 1010032359

If this is Class E equivalent airspace I assume civilian class E rules apply? If it is designated transponder airspace you need a transponder, otherwise can you fly around in there as you wish like in normal Class E airspace? For a VFR flight in Class E: There is no need for a clearance to enter; there is no need to maintain a listening watch; there is no VFR traffic separation...so, what's the point of having controlled airspace at 700' where no one will be IFR? Is this just saying "hey, there's lots of traffic here, watch out"? Or since this is a military TCA is it in effect a CYR? Class E equivalent that requires a clearance to enter if traffic permits? If this isn't treated like normal civilian Class E, why would anyone call it Class E Equivalent Airspace?

[Edo]

I call BS on the "I don't have time to plot it if I fly Medevac". If you fly in the vicinity of the aerodrome, you should take 2 minutes of your down time to plot it. I am on alert sometimes and that is not an excuse not to be ready for a possible scramble and the safe conduct of the flight. I plan before I am scrambled for most places I could go. If you really "don't have time", then ask ATC to vector you around. It ain't rocket science.

We are on a 45-minute window from the call to wheels up. We do not have time...particularly with the BS going on with CYXD at present. However, I rarely fly to the Wainwright area these days, but it will surprise me if other medivac services in that area are not also on 45-minute getaway also.

The point is that anyone going there, near there, or around there needs something that is easily and readily interpreted...which THAT NOTAM is not.

You can certainly ask for vectors around any MOA; you can even call ahead. You're right - a no-brainer. Then why mention it? Ever tried to get vectors around Cold Lake from Buffalo Narrows to Edmonton? Good luck....

Isn't Ab health on a 30 min callout? No wonder some people are always late.

Seriously though making a time window should NEVER compromise flight safety medevac or not. If you need more time for flight planning tell dispatch, or tell them you need extra gas whatever. Or like someone mentioned go ifr as ask for clerance through or vectors around.

[swordfish]

If I can figure out how to do this, there must be someone at Nav Canada that can figure it out....

http://www.romeonav.com/map.html

Nice work, FPOKA!