Interested by Sky Regional Airlines, please consider

[animal]

Good day everyone,

I usually read these forums but never actually posted anything. Actually, I just signed up today. I think this should be considered before anybody's resume makes it to Sky Regional Airlines.

I am very concerned with the possible arrival of Sky Regional Airlines. We are very fortunate in this country. Our national airline is currently using only 1 major regional partner. The arrival of Sky Regional would change that and could have potential desastrous implication for our future as pilots in Canada. For those who don't know; Air Canada will start serving Toronto Island again shortly. Instead of offering this work to their current regional partner, they intend on giving the work in and out of the Island to this new Airline. The Idea is clear, Sky Regional would do this work for less than Air Canada' other regional partner.

If this ever happens, we have to consider the possibility that in a few years from now, Air Canada will gladly offer its regional work to the lowest bidder.

This will most likely mean a situation similar to what they have south of the border. Ridiculous wages and poor working conditions.

Keep this in mind. If Sky Regional never happens, the work will still need to be done. These jobs that seem so appealing will still be available, most likely at Air Canada's current regional partner.

I won't hide, I work at Jazz as an FO. I have been here 3 years. Let me just say this. I was chatting an American Pilot that works for Pinnacle. He's a Captain on an RJ. We are bringing home the same money. Please help me insure we are not headed that way... Please look at the BIG picture.

Thanks for your time.

Your concerned collegue.

[hithere]

Good post, however it belongs in the Air CAnada section because they are the ones who will be voting whether or not to allow Air Canada to use someone other than Jazz for the island flying. We won't have to worry about Sky regional unless the ACPA membership votes yes.

[2775PSI]

Word is captains will be making 95K to start. If this is true, I'm liking the direction this is going..

[aerosexual]

That's not what I've heard, but I hope it's true. Perhaps they'll hire training captains at 95K to start? All I've heard is "similar to Jazz and Porter" so we'll see how it goes.

[North Shore]

Just to take the devil's advocate..

So you expect guys at the bottom, who are desperate to get a decent seat and experience so as to move further up the ladder, to not take a job based on your fears for your career? Not gonna happen.
<Hypothetically> I'm a 2500hr KingAir200 Captain, and I've got my choice of WJ/AC (unlikely, due to lack of experience) or Jazz/Porter/Sky - two of which fly brand new Q400's. I'm sending my resume off to all three, and taking the first one that calls (depending on where I live, or want to live.)

[DanJ]

I somewhat disagree with the statement that "the work has to be done". The work is being done. It's not like there is a line-up at the Porter terminal everyday with people who couldn't get on a flight. AC's ultimate goal is to replace Raccoons with Maple Leafs at the Island. AC obviously doesn't feel they can competitively do that with Jazz, so the need for someone presumably cheaper. If they don't find someone cheaper, then they probably don't do it, rather than give it to Jazz.

[wallypilot]

Just to take the devil's advocate..

So you expect guys at the bottom, who are desperate to get a decent seat and experience so as to move further up the ladder, to not take a job based on your fears for your career? Not gonna happen.
<Hypothetically> I'm a 2500hr KingAir200 Captain, and I've got my choice of WJ/AC (unlikely, due to lack of experience) or Jazz/Porter/Sky - two of which fly brand new Q400's. I'm sending my resume off to all three, and taking the first one that calls (depending on where I live, or want to live.)

Unfortunately, I think you are right. There is definitely a segment of the pilot population that would stick to some sort of principle on this matter. However, i think the majority would do as you suggest. That's the problem with our industry in general. Too many guys clamouring for hours and experience. Not only do they accept lower wages to get these things, but in some cases are willing to violate CARS duty limitations to get flight hours(I'm not talking about any major national airline with that final comment, btw...just making a point).

[F-16]

How would AC having Jazz and Sky working for them be any different than just a few years ago when it was Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Nova, etc.?

[Darkwing Duck]

How would AC having Jazz and Sky working for them be any different than just a few years ago when it was Air BC, Air Ontario, Air Nova, etc.?

Cuzz Air BC, Air Ont and Air Nova each had a section of the country and rarely if ever overlapped. Sky would be in the same back yard as Jazz.

Just to take the devil's advocate..

So you expect guys at the bottom, who are desperate to get a decent seat and experience so as to move further up the ladder, to not take a job based on your fears for your career? Not gonna happen.
<Hypothetically> I'm a 2500hr KingAir200 Captain, and I've got my choice of WJ/AC (unlikely, due to lack of experience) or Jazz/Porter/Sky - two of which fly brand new Q400's. I'm sending my resume off to all three, and taking the first one that calls (depending on where I live, or want to live.)

I like this hypothetical situation. If you are given a chance that offers a fair buck then why not. Gotta look out for #1.

[727driver]

Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. Here you are quick to discourage people who may be looking for career progression not to work for Sky Regional because of your fear it will put downward pressure on wages and you won't get an opportunity to fly the Q. Didn't you jazz guys recently accept status pay on the 57 for the Thomas Cook contract? Congrats, you all went from being North Americas best paid RJ/Dash drivers to the lowest paid 57 drivers. Thankyou for dropping that bar lower. Remeber you can't always have it both ways and if your going to be ok with accepting lower than industry standards to fly 757's don't complain about others accepting less than your standard for the Dash.

[GIVCE!]

not true. The rate Jazz recieves from TC is 155$/Hr.

[sanjet]

not true. The rate Jazz recieves from TC is 155$/Hr.

So is that what a Jazz 757 driver will make or that what TC is paying jazz for.

[Johnny#5]

I think in essence the 757 drivers are making that $$, except they've agreed to take the extra amount and spread it amongst the pilot group. So that everyone's pay goes up, instead of only a handful. So that one isn't ever needing to "chase metal".


I don't work there, it's just my take on it. Status pay is not for everyone, but they seem to like it at Jazz.

[giligan]

It seems the shoe is on the other foot. What was your take on aviation in Canada and fairness when Thomas Cook asked for bids to operate 757's in Canada and then promptly called in their loans to Skyservice when they found a lower bidder forcing hundreds of pilots out of work.

I know, I know JALPA or what ever you call it was looking out for number one and diversifying. Guess what, so is big brother. 2 can play at that game. Scary isn't it. Go back 6 months and post the same thing only substitute "Thomas Cook" for "Air Canada" and "Jazz" for "Sky Regional".
Send a Christmas hamper to an out of work Skyservice pilot this Christmas when your Jazz Ensemble check comes in.
gil

[Buzz Lightyear]

Has anyone consider the fact that if AC really wants to compete with Porter on the island route they need to offer a somewhat similar type of service? Jazz isn't showing a high quality of onboard service (peanuts and coke, sometimes a smile) and maybe a fresh airline with fresh ideas and a different marketing approach is the only answer to take customers back from Porter.

Just a thought....

[Samson]

There are huge numbers of pilots in Canada that could make threads about how you taking a job at Jazz has negatively impacted the industry. What was your starting pay around $36k? Many highly qualified 703/704 pilots didn't apply to Jazz because they simply couldn't afford to live in a city on those wages. Quietly they wished no one would apply so pay would go up but they kept their mouth shut and let you do what you want to do. I'm afraid you aren't going to get much support from the pilot community because frankly you are seen as kind of idiots. This status pay bs isn't helping your cause either no matter how much you've convinced yourself that it's great. You made your bed and so on...

[SilvrSurfr]

Has anyone consider the fact that if AC really wants to compete with Porter on the island route they need to offer a somewhat similar type of service? Jazz isn't showing a high quality of onboard service (peanuts and coke, sometimes a smile) and maybe a fresh airline with fresh ideas and a different marketing approach is the only answer to take customers back from Porter.

Just a thought....

The Air Canada product may not be exactly the same, but it would have a few thing Porter does not. Aeroplan, and a complete network with overseas, and Star Alliance connections as well. That being said the Island is clearly a different market demographic with different demands. I guess we'll see what AC offers, and how the market responds.

Back to the topic though, I don't think you can expect others not to seize an opportunity to further their careers.

Surfr

[Gino Under]

As I understand it, (what the hell do I know?) There's a pissing contest between who will and who won't be allowed to serve the island. Apparently, Mr. D doesn't want Jazz or Air Canada. Which called for creative solutions.
Create Sky Regional using someone else's OC and "Poof", problem solved.

Apparently, passengers want price NOT service. Who knew???

We'll see where jetsgo. Oooops! I mean we'll see where this goes.

Gino

[unregistered]

Kind of hypocritical if you ask me. Here you are quick to discourage people who may be looking for career progression not to work for Sky Regional because of your fear it will put downward pressure on wages and you won't get an opportunity to fly the Q. Didn't you jazz guys recently accept status pay on the 57 for the Thomas Cook contract? Congrats, you all went from being North Americas best paid RJ/Dash drivers to the lowest paid 57 drivers. Thankyou for dropping that bar lower. Remeber you can't always have it both ways and if your going to be ok with accepting lower than industry standards to fly 757's don't complain about others accepting less than your standard for the Dash.

I agree.

[hithere]

Hey Edited,

For the last time, we did not lower the bar with the 757. The amount that Jazz charges Thomas Cook to fly the 757 per hour is approx $157 for Capt and 60%of that($94) for FO. Jazz Alpa then takes those wages and distributes them evenly amounst all pilots at Jazz so that every Captain gets paid the same, regardless of type and every FO gets paid the same, regardless of type( the only variable is years of service). So as far as Thomas Cook is concerned, it costs approx $250($157+$94) an hour for the front end crew of a 757 and this is the same rate that Skyservice was charging them to do the same work, before Jazz got the contract.

[DanJ]

That's all well and good, but the labour market for pilots won't be looking at what a third party pays an airline for it's services, but rather what an airline pays its pilots for a certain type, to determine the going rate for a certain type. When the union at my employer talks to the company about our wages, they compare the wages at our competitors, not what the competitor charges the customer.

And with all the talk about the warm fuzzy feeling they have at Jazz over the status pay, I'd be curious what the vote results were, and how the no vote correlates to the number of 757 pilots there. I would be willing to bet that it's less a case of the 757 pilot group voting to be generous and sharing the wealth (as it has been described on here) with the Dash and RJ group as it is the Dash and RJ group taking from the 757 group.

[rudder]

That's all well and good, but the labour market for pilots won't be looking at what a third party pays an airline for it's services, but rather what an airline pays its pilots for a certain type, to determine the going rate for a certain type. When the union at my employer talks to the company about our wages, they compare the wages at our competitors, not what the competitor charges the customer.

And with all the talk about the warm fuzzy feeling they have at Jazz over the status pay, I'd be curious what the vote results were, and how the no vote correlates to the number of 757 pilots there. I would be willing to bet that it's less a case of the 757 pilot group voting to be generous and sharing the wealth (as it has been described on here) with the Dash and RJ group as it is the Dash and RJ group taking from the 757 group.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Jazz pays its pilots, not Thomas Cook. As part of the wage pool which is shared by ALL Jazz pilots (its called status pay), there are top-scale B757 wages for 37 crews/6 months of the year.

So Jazz will fly the B757 for $155/hr. Transat fly the A330 for $175/hr. Are the AT pilots part of the downward spiral too?

Will the Jazz status pay system last forever? Who knows. But for now it lets pilots pick rank and domicile first and then equipment last.

[Mclovin]

Guys I don't think explaining status pay over and over is going to satisfy these people. They clearly have a hate on for Jazz and no matter how many times its explained will find something else to bitch about.

[Tiny Tyke]

If my company gets bigger types I'll be pushing for status pay......

Not sure all the pilots would be happy about it though.

[Localizer]

This is a great thread .. it shows how stupid we are as a group. We like to believe that pilots make corporate decisions, or sway corporate direction. Part of that is correct .. we sway corporate direction by showing what a bunch of morons we can be over toys. Corporate decisions put Skyservice pilots on the street .. corporate decisions are putting Sky Regional pilots on the island. Com'on people .. the race to the bottom is right infront of your face! We choose to attack one another because you can't do anything about the corporation .. that needs to change .. direct your anger/frustration in the right direction.

ACPA holds the balance of power in regards to the island, another tier 2 operator goes against their scope clause. It will be up to their pilot group to decide whether or not Sky Regional will affect their flying, pilot group or the industry as a whole. Again .. whats the point of another tier 2 carrier if the pay is going to be less then the existing player? We're trying to increase pilot wages .. not drive them down. I know for the "anti-status pay group" this is hard to believe .. but the math doesn't lie. $155/hr for a 57 skipper .. no bar's are being lowered.

With all that said .. I share the original posters concerns, but I would never tell anyone not to take the opportunity when it presents itself to further there career.

What was your starting pay around $36k?

Samson .. you do realize Air Canada is no different? Flat pay low $40's .. Jazz is now in the low $40's to start. (Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal .. same major centers as AC)

Jazz isn't showing a high quality of onboard service

Air Canada dictates the services/amenities on Jazz aircraft .. not Jazz.

Send a Christmas hamper to an out of work Skyservice pilot this Christmas when your Jazz Ensemble check comes in.

Sorry your pissed off at a group of fellow pilots that have no say/bearing on what decisions are made by corporate entities. Hopefully in time you'll realize that.