Junior Pilots, you have control!

[Jaques Strappe]

This is my last post here on this site. The entire age 60 argument on here got way out of control and made it generally an unpleasant place to visit. With that being said and with many of the guys reading on here, I would like to say something to the more junior pilots.

You guys have control and you need to exercise it. From the day I was hired at AC 15 years ago, I have been hearing that "we need to protect the top jobs because eventually, everyone will get there." That notion is well reflected in the fact that the junior pilots have a position group to deal with, the Airbus guys took an additional 5% pay cut over other types, yet the widebody fleet maintained more benefits. In fact, I would go so far as to say that we have protected the top too well, as reflected by the fact that now people don't want to leave and are before the courts fighting to stay. So the junior guy is just going to have to wait a bit longer for an upgrade.

With todays demographic, the days of getting hired at the age of 19 are long over. Many of the junior guys are in their late 30's or 40's and will never see that "top" we protect so much. So why do we do it? We also find ourselves today, a company with about 25,000 to 30,000 employees supporting the same amount of retirees. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that the defined benefit pension, which also relies on the support of the Junior group to continue paying into it, is living on borrowed time. Imagine what benefit you could negotiate if you put the pension on the table?

I am certainly not going to tell anyone what to do about pension, age 60, or otherwise but the way I see it, the junior guy is getting hosed big time and yet the junior guys collectively have the power to make a serious dent in any vote. I see a tremendous opportunity for the 800 plus recently hired pilots to have a voice and make some serious changes here at AC. It is your future and your airline, take control.


Over and Out.

[Main Gear]

Hate to see you go bud. I enjoyed your posts.....you added much to this forum.

[bcflyer]

Too long didn't read.

Thats too bad because it was well worth the time spent reading.

If you are junior you need to hear what JS was saying and take it to heart.

If you're senior you might want to read it so you aren't caught off guard when the junior guys vote to stop supporting your lifestyle with pay cuts and concessions!

[Old fella]

Yup, I am outa here myself as quality people like JS, old Tony and bmc are not around anymore. These folks added a lot to this forum, a hell of a lot more than I ever did.

Over and Out for me!

[Mig29]

Very well said JS!!

The sad thing is people don't have the time or care to stop and think, let alone just listen, heck it's easier then thinking, right??? But maybe someone will, time will tell...

Guys like you should not be leaving this forum....in any case, wish you all the best!

[yycflyguy]

This is my last post here on this site. The entire age 60 argument on here got way out of control and made it generally an unpleasant place to visit. With that being said and with many of the guys reading on here, I would like to say something to the more junior pilots.

You guys have control and you need to exercise it. From the day I was hired at AC 15 years ago, I have been hearing that "we need to protect the top jobs because eventually, everyone will get there." That notion is well reflected in the fact that the junior pilots have a position group to deal with, the Airbus guys took an additional 5% pay cut over other types, yet the widebody fleet maintained more benefits. In fact, I would go so far as to say that we have protected the top too well, as reflected by the fact that now people don't want to leave and are before the courts fighting to stay. So the junior guy is just going to have to wait a bit longer for an upgrade.

With todays demographic, the days of getting hired at the age of 19 are long over. Many of the junior guys are in their late 30's or 40's and will never see that "top" we protect so much. So why do we do it? We also find ourselves today, a company with about 25,000 to 30,000 employees supporting the same amount of retirees. It doesn't take a mathematician to figure out that the defined benefit pension, which also relies on the support of the Junior group to continue paying into it, is living on borrowed time. Imagine what benefit you could negotiate if you put the pension on the table?

I am certainly not going to tell anyone what to do about pension, age 60, or otherwise but the way I see it, the junior guy is getting hosed big time and yet the junior guys collectively have the power to make a serious dent in any vote. I see a tremendous opportunity for the 800 plus recently hired pilots to have a voice and make some serious changes here at AC. It is your future and your airline, take control.


Over and Out.

I am sorry to be reading your final missive here. You are unique in your appreciation for what the junior membership has endured and the upcoming challenges in both the immediate and long term future. In your seniority and position, you could have easily turned a blind eye to the issues but have always offered a word of advice, a word of experience in a logical, well thought out post. You personally offered me words of encouragement and direction when I was going through the selection process so I thank you for that. Your recent absence here was noticed and will will be missed.

Thanks Jaques Strappe. Blue skies, smooth landings and long, winding roads with no traffic.

[teacher]

What junior folks also need to realize also is that better pay (among other things) early on might mean less later but the net result in terms of total pay though out your career should be the same. I'd rather make more early and less later and have it spread out instead of struggling at the beginning and feasting at the end.

[torx]

Imagine what benefit you could negotiate if you put the pension on the table?

Toodles Jack!

[North Shore]

^ Ain't that the truth! I'd much rather trade off a big dollar paycheque 20 years from now when my kids are grown, and mortgage paid off, for a larger one now when I have new shoes to buy every 3 months, and a mortgage payment due every two weeks..

[Takeoff OK]

I don't mean to question anyone's wisdom here, but before you start talking about dumping the pension to avoid wage concessions, you should take a big step back and a long breath.

How much does each passenger pay for your services? If you assume a top-scale 777 crew, you're looking at what? 240/hr for the cap, 170/hr for the FO, 60-odd/hr for the RP, and a combined 300/hr for the FAs. I'm guestimating here, but probably close. How many pax on a full 777? What are they paying, all told, for everyone working the flight? $2/flight hour? Something close to that?

So what percentage of the total overhead goes to crew pay? Almost nothing. A simple ticket price bump of $3/flight hour/passenger would be enough to double the entire crew's wages at virtually no extra cost to the company. We're talking about maybe an increase of 30 to 40 bucks for a long-haul ticket one way.

Conversely, reducing the ticket price by $3/hr and making the crew work for free would be a zero sum game. Get the point?

Stop buying the line that reducing pay saves the company. It's a lie.

If I'm missing something significant, please fill me in.

(edited for spelling)

[flyguycanuk]

I see a tremendous opportunity for the 800 plus recently hired pilots to have a voice and make some serious changes here at AC. It is your future and your airline, take control.


Over and Out.

800 plus... and counting!!! We are learning, organising, and trying to get the message out. I'm hoping the next elections will bring some new blood and a more informed and involved junior membership.

[JayDee]

Imagine what benefit you could negotiate if you put the pension on the table?

Unbelievable.

The company will eat you alive lock stock & barrel. They salivate at the thought of a union " putting their pension on the table "

I think there was some chlorine in Jacques gene pool. OMG !! Talk about biting your nose off just to spite your face ~ ~~ They have it, I want it ***NOW***....whaaaaaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaaaa

If you make the big $$$ in the early years, odds are you will probably spend it equally as fast. Bigger house, more expensive cars....more toys....exotic vacations.......Life will be good..........for a while...........

If you listen to the likes of Jacques, Good Luck in your 50's with a small paycheck when your kids REALLY start costing big $$$$$ in University and beyond.

Top that off with a slashed or non existant pension when you retire and you are in for a HUGE surprise.


There's a reason that generally speaking most decision makers and leaders are older. It because they are smart enough not to make the mistakes of youth.

By leaving Jacques Strappe will be doing you all a favor by stopping the spread of insanity which is exactly what his suggestions are.

[teacher]

Actually, more money in the early years would mean we wouldn't rack up such huge debts just trying to live and pay the bills. Imagine all that interest not having to be paid to the bank and government loans.

[HavaJava]

JayDee

Not all of us mismanage our money so badly that we have to continue working past 60 to make ends meet.

I am personally planning my finances to be able to afford a comfortable retirement with no pension at all. I know in Canada we have regulations in place to protect our pensions but who's to say that 25 years down the road when the Baby Boomers have sucked the pensions plans dry that these protections will still be in place.

As a "green" pilot I would gladly convert to DC or even no pension if it meant significant gains in my current income (compound interest is my friend!). For you senior guys...don't you worry one bit about whether I'll be able to afford to send my kids to college in my 50's. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot...you don't give a shit about me...you are just worried that there might not be an army of lowly junior minions to support your pension and/or maintain the current super-cushy senior Air Canada lifestyle that you have become so accustomed to.

Calling junior pilots self-entitled is the most hypocritical thing you can ever say. I am not relying on anyone but myself to improve my families life now and in the future.

[Mclovin]

I have to ask, because it seems almost every AC thread turns into an argument between fellow employees. What is the work environment like at AC?

It seems that there is so much division between the group with the original AC guys and Canadian, and the Junior guys and Senior guys.

I wonder what employee morale is like, when there is constant bickering and fighting among there own group? For people who want to work at AC, reading things on this forum and others its hard to believe there are thousands of people applying, it seems like such a hostile work environment.

I am not trying bash AC at all, I am just curious cause from the outside looking in it seems like an poor work environment.

[PilotFlying]

I am personally planning my finances to be able to afford a comfortable retirement with no pension at all. I know in Canada we have regulations in place to protect our pensions but who's to say that 25 years down the road when the Baby Boomers have sucked the pensions plans dry that these protections will still be in place.

BINGO! In fact, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I have to ask, because it seems almost every AC thread turns into an argument between fellow employees. What is the work environment like at AC?

Morale is actually quite good, and the bickering you see on here is not present on the line. While differing opinions on current issues do get discussed, they generally follow along the lines of a healthy debate and remain civil. There will be differences of opinion at any company. The 'big man' attitude you see around here tends to get quite watered down when there isn't the comfort of hiding behind a handle on an internet forum.

All in all, a great place to work!

Cheers,

Chris

[Mclovin]

I am personally planning my finances to be able to afford a comfortable retirement with no pension at all. I know in Canada we have regulations in place to protect our pensions but who's to say that 25 years down the road when the Baby Boomers have sucked the pensions plans dry that these protections will still be in place.

BINGO! In fact, I agree with pretty much everything you said.

I have to ask, because it seems almost every AC thread turns into an argument between fellow employees. What is the work environment like at AC?

Morale is actually quite good, and the bickering you see on here is not present on the line. While differing opinions on current issues do get discussed, they generally follow along the lines of a healthy debate and remain civil. There will be differences of opinion at any company. The 'big man' attitude you see around here tends to get quite watered down when there isn't the comfort of hiding behind a handle on an internet forum.

All in all, a great place to work!

Cheers,

Chris

Awesome thanks Chris. I kind of figured this wasn't an accurate representation of how things are at AC, just gets discouraging seeing people argue and bicker with each other, especially when on the same team.

[ACAV8R]

Mclovin,

You'll notice these forums have the same 30 or so guys that are vocal. We have around 3000 pilots.

That's about 1%, pretty good I would say with the amount of baggage

[Idle Thrust]

It's interesting that I was just reviewing some old threads and noticed the absence of Jacques lately. Then he makes his departure announcement later the same day. I too will miss his posts, he was always readable and made many good points regardless of whether one agreed with him or not. Maybe he will return, meanwhile - farewell buddy.

As to his thesis above, perhaps there is merit in what he and others are saying on this subject. When the average age of new hires was in the '20s the old adage that "you'll get to the top eventually" was pretty much true, so long as one stayed healthy. Now that many (most?) new hires face the prospect of only attaining 20 or 25 years of service towards pension perhaps something ought to be done to begin to level the salary curve. After all, with new hires having several thousands of hours experience, the result of many years "apprenticing" elsewhere, it seems wrong to put them on starvation wages at the bottom of the totem pole. Other professions reward entrants much more generously.

If that means squeezing the payroll balloon at the top end a little, is that a bad thing? I know the old productivity argument, heard it forever yada yada, but do you really think a B-777 Captain or F/O (or R/P) really "earns" that differential between him or her and the EMB equivalent? If he or she does "earn" more for the company, it has little to do with skill or workload, it's just a circumstance that is not the pilot's to control. Maybe Jacques has a point, maybe it is time for radical change.

Final point that has only recently occurred to me - perhaps the root of the current Age60 debate goes back to the elimination of the "Max Age 28" hiring rule, the extensive relaxation of medical requirements and the onus to hire based on experience (high-time). That used to produce a younger-starting cohort which had a better chance of making it to a normal retirement age. Now we have older and perhaps less fit (long term) entrants producing the situation Jacques laments. And those changes were all driven by "human rights", so the latest events are nothing new, it all goes back to human rights. And it will only get worse.

[LeadingEdge]

While I can understand this inter-generational anger, given the state of everything in society vis-a-vis living costs etc... I think that the attempt to essentially transfer wealth from the "Senior Pilot" to yourself is naive and misguided. Any increase in your wages will almost certainly push you into another tax bracket, this will essentially negate a significant portion of your gain, especially if you are giving up a DB pension.

Your assumption; and that is all it is, that the Pension will not be available to you is false and quite simply ignores Pension law. Your comment that a DC plan is somehow better than a DB plan clearly shows your lack of understanding of Pensions and the investment risk associated with DC and self directed RRSP type plans. I suggest that you talk to a qualified investment adviser about your DB plan, you maybe be surprised...

I fail to see the logic in giving up a pension, only to have to save for retirement yourself, especially out of post tax income. One has to ask: just how does this help your current financial position?? You would have to save twice what your Pension contributions are, and it is also highly improbable that you could match the DB Pension post retirement payout. Furthermore, your comment that your contributions are somehow funding current retirement benefits is not true. I suggest that, rather than listening to rumour and BS, phone up your pension chair and get some qualified information on your current benefit.

Lastly, you should remember that that "Senior Pilot" gave up a much larger chunk of pay in CCAA to help save the Airline and your job...

While I fully sympathize that the bottom wages at AC are substandard and very difficult, please remember that all of your fellow Pilots have also "been there". This problem, belongs to Air Canada, and it has a responsibility to address the inflation induced lack of purchasing power for the entry level positions. You may also want to reflect upon the fact, that you chose to take this job, knowing full well the pay scales and benefits associated with it.

[Mig29]

The point here is not to take away 777 guy's pay or destroy their pension, because that would be senseless as every 'junior' guy will one day want to retire with a decent and noble pension.

So no, no one is trying to take the food away from seniors here. Some people are missing the point. The point is to help out new guys transition to AC and make their lives little more 'breathable' financially so that they can send their kids to school and pay their bills on time. Today. Not 5 or 10 years from now. Guys today are not walking in AC with 19 years of age and 250hr and their frozen ATPL. We all know that.

If you think that 38K/year is what a entry level F/O (based on recent demographics) should make, than you simply don't care or just don't see how tough its gotten in recent years. And it's all because you've been to concerned with your pretty thick pay stubs and calculations on how much will you pull at the end of your career during your oversea hops.... And you know what, that is not an accusation, but only a reality, as we all forget about people next to us, our neighbors, friends and sadly even family sometimes, getting consumed within our own life's intricacies. The point is, we need to wake up and work with each other, as we are slowly getting crushed as a group and as professionals by guys who run the show and pull in all the real cash. And that is not you or me, nor is the guy who is in the front if that 777.

As retirements start to increase over the years so will the demographics in AC and hopefully as someone mentioned, it will tilt the scale the other way. All I hope is that you are going to be on the right side of it.

[teacher]

Than why can't junior pilots not opt out of the pension IF we are not supporting the top brass. My first question at Jazz was can I opt out, the answer is "NO".

There's no way you can make more with a pension no way at ALL!! If you had an RRSP matching plan at your company and put in as much as you do into a pension you'd make a hell of a lot more. The richest people in the world didn't do it by waiting for a pension cheque.

[bcflyer]

Lastly, you should remember that that "Senior Pilot" gave up a much larger chunk of pay in CCAA to help save the Airline and your job...

Please let us know exactly what the "Senior Pilot" gave up to save the Airline and our jobs.. Non of them were laid off and they are all still on formula pay (some on formula pay +++ 340 wages to fly the 330) while the junior guys are stuck in either the PG (Emb and cruisers) or formula -5% (320 guys) So please show me where the Senior Pilots gave a much larger chunk...

P.S. losing 20 grand a year when you make $200,000 hurts far less than losing 5 grand a year when you only make $40,000

[Big Pistons Forever]

A lot of United and US Airways senior pilots had planned to retire on a nice DB pension....untill the pension fund was liquidated when the airlines went into chapter 11.
Yes the laws are a bit different but depending on how you do math the Air Canada DB plan is underfunded by up to 2 Billion dollars and the plan to fix the hole appears to be to ask the government to extend the deadline to recapatalize the plan. At some point AC cannot just keep kicking the can down the road, they are going to have to put serious money into the pension plan. Also if you have just retired at age 60 you will probably live for at least 25 yrs, or in other words you well being is entirely dependant in Air Canada being a going concern all that time so it will continue to contribute to your pension plan. Given the recent history of airlines that strikes me as a big bet.

DB plans are only better if the entity running the plan is absolutely positively going to still be around untill you die. For young pilots that is in excess of 50 years, fine if you fly for the government, a different story if you work for a commercial enterprise which could go TU the next time there is a major shock to the air travel system like 9/11....... The one undeniable advantage of DC plans is all the money accumulated is yours and can never be taken away.

[LeadingEdge]

Lastly, you should remember that that "Senior Pilot" gave up a much larger chunk of pay in CCAA to help save the Airline and your job...

Please let us know exactly what the "Senior Pilot" gave up to save the Airline and our jobs.. Non of them were laid off and they are all still on formula pay (some on formula pay +++ 340 wages to fly the 330) while the junior guys are stuck in either the PG (Emb and cruisers) or formula -5% (320 guys) So please show me where the Senior Pilots gave a much larger chunk...

P.S. losing 20 grand a year when you make $200,000 hurts far less than losing 5 grand a year when you only make $40,000

People, Google is your friend, a little knowledge can clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

The top guys gave up 30% in CCAA, do the math and you'll come up with $100G... Where is all this entitlement coming from? You knew the score when you joined. If its any concellation, you won't be in the paygroup for much longer, and I'll bet you change your tune then.

Bigpistonsforever - cool name BTW

US Pension law is completely irrelevant to the current Canadian situation. We have completely different laws, maybe you should investigate them... If you do, you'll find out the the wholesale loss of a pension in Canada is not possible without Fraud.

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/200 ... 1-eng.html

The AC Pension that is quoted as being underfunded by $2B is actually underfunded by $1.1B as of Q1 2010, of this, less than 20% belongs to the Pilots.