Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

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Brown Bear
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by Brown Bear »

Flygal wrote:+1 for Perimeter. Best pay in any department compared to all the other starter companies. So you will not live in squalid poverty while you're waiting to fly, plus YWG isn't that bad. Once you're on line, it's pretty nice too. Full benefits package, OK starting pay, Pilots Association, proper maint., fair management, good pilots and a overall positive environment. They have multiple jump seat agreements so you will be able to travel when you're not working one of your 16 days a month. There is a reason why they don't bond their metro and 99 pilots, it's an awesome gig. HR department has STACKS of resumes from CPL wonders trying to get their foot in the door. I'm a success story; no pain, no gain.

Kiv and Keewatin have a hiring pool too. Smaller companies though mean less movement. But I've heard good stories out of them too!
Brown Bear wrote:Only a two year wait? Gee, things are REALLY looking up! The world ends in 2012......maybe some day you will all get to exercise the privileges printed on your "pilot" licence.....maybe NOT!
:bear: :bear:
We all know about your views on working the ground with a CPL, but whining on avcanada won't get you any closer to a turbine. If you had got up off your ass you probably would be a captain somewhere by now. Just because mom and dad bought you a CPL doesn't mean you're entitled to a job. Lawyers have to article! Business people have to fetch Starbucks for the boss! Unless you're in the group of less than 1% of pilots who luck out with a job, you're going to have to get dirty. I mean no offence to you. I was once in your mind frame too. I then just accepted my fate to throw baggage one day and it all worked out. I had fun too.
Well, "Flygal", I was probably flying turbines while your mommy was changing your diapers.
Show me a lawyer that has to load the bosses car for 2-3 years.
Big difference between "fetching Starbucks" for the boss, and kissing ass on a ramp, with a carrot dangled in front of your nose. Huge!
Glad you had fun chucking bags. Doesn't make it right though.

frankfrank...."owned"? Yah, whatever. In your dreams.

Fact remains.....this is the ONLY industry where employees PAY directly for their jobs. Where else are employees treated as "slave" labour for companies to cheap to hire "normal" labour?
:bear: :bear:
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Brown Bear
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by Brown Bear »

A point that most of you are missing is........I'm on YOUR side! I want to see companies hire pilots as PILOTS! Instead of taking cheap shots at me, maybe you should all want the same thing??
If I was running an aviation company, I WOULD HIRE PILOTS as PILOTS. I guess, in some of your simple minds, that make ME the enemy? I guess, if "getting it up the poop shoot" is considered "normal", you should "expect" and be "willing" to get it "up the poop shoot"?? Whatever we do, lets NOT rock the boat?
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2R
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by 2R »

Flygal wrote:+1

:bear: :bear:
Unless you're in the group of less than 1% of pilots who luck out with a job, you're going to have to get dirty.[/quote]


How dirty and what kind of dirty :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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fish4life
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by fish4life »

one thing i'd have to add about perimeter is you say pay people a decent wage instead of slave labour?... well Perimeter ramp guys are making more than any other ramp people in YWG (with the exception of A/C but thats a different situation and they are over paid) if you don't have a flying job why not get a ramp job until you can find one, as for the carrot unless you really mess up on the ramp and can't fly in your sim evals everyone is taken in order of seniority on the ramp, and the best part time job while working on your licenses.
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PunkStarStudios
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by PunkStarStudios »

I'm kinda with Brown Bear as well... although he's expressing his point a little stronger than I would care too ;-) but that's his prerogative.

Personally - I wouldn't take a "flying job" where there was no flying if that's the career I wanted to pursue.
To article you need law school.
To do residence you need med school.
To fly you need flight school
To ramp... you need no school.

The previous comparisons were not exactly on point.

Just sayin'
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ywgflyboy
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by ywgflyboy »

Let me dig out my grade 9 social studies text... I think that is when we first learn of supply vs demand.
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fly-drink-chicks-music
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by fly-drink-chicks-music »

Ramp isnt bad. Its not all ramp, check-in, maintenace, there is various spots to fit in. Pay isnt bad, free housing up to half a year, people are going FO in under a year right now.

I agree, were pilots. But if i were to just sit here, apply until i find a flying job, highly unlikely btw. It could likely be years. Hell for me and most of my classmates it was about 1-4 months to find a ground position! There is NO point to simply wait, minus well take what we can get, while getting paid for it and continue applying for flying jobs. Working your time on the ramp was the only way i saw the industry, Sure, 1-5 years or whatever it is, mood will be switched to flying right away for fresh pilots. Right now, it isnt, im having a great time what im doing right now, making decent wages and could be flying as soon as spring. Perimeter is pretty good, strong company, even Bearskin just got linked with the whole EIF. 700-1000 hrs a year, with upgrade to capt at only 1200 hrs on the Metro II.
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scopiton
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by scopiton »

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Last edited by scopiton on Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
fish4life
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by fish4life »

scopiton wrote:it's not bad in itself to get a ground job while finishing your IFR/ME/CPL/IATRA thing.
the problem is, when you do this to get a right seat, you're distorting the hiring game for the other guys next to you.
ramp people get hired after few months/years on the ramp but they have close to none flight experience and half of it is with an instructor.
so what does really qualify them for a right seat in such company than any other pilot sending his resume with five times more experience who doesn't get hired ?
then what are the real requirements for the position ? Fight experience or ramp experience ? how do we count that ?
will we have to work on the ramp with a valid ATPL to obtain this seat within a good company ?
what is more valuable : a guy who towed aircraft on the ramp, or flight experience in sometimes adverse weather, approach to mins, severe icing enroute ?
it's not even a question of work ethic, but working on the ramp to get a flying job is the best mean to minimize the value of flight experience toward employers.
you guys are burning the bridge who could help you reach the other shore one day.
to be completely honest the best pilots to fly with were the ones with 250 hours when they started and not the people that came in with experience because they didn't have any bad habits and could be taught how to fly the metro right from the beginning. I believe one of the hardest people to train at the company was a guy that came in with 5000 hours, not because he wasn't experienced because he was but he just had a hell of a time adapting to a completely different plane.
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dab81
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by dab81 »

I've also got a problem with that ramp work=apprenticeship for new pilots argument. Sure, lawyers article and doctors reside and mechanics apprentice. I'd say the closest a pilot would come to such a comparison would be the right seat. That's where they'll learn the trade while paying their dues(FO pay and schedule). Of course it's a weak comparison as it doesn't account for single pilot/piston ops.
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xsbank
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by xsbank »

Xsbank's Prognostication: this amalgamation will be the kiss of death for these (cough) fine operations. 2 years, restructuring. Cultures, management; Case of Guinness?

Xsbank's Opinion: Ramp work is slave labour. Hire pilots to pilot and hire ramp workers to ramp. If you do not begin a gradual, structured, formal check-out the first week you are hired, you are slave labour and you are getting hosed.
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by PunkStarStudios »

dab81 wrote:I've also got a problem with that ramp work=apprenticeship for new pilots argument. Sure, lawyers article and doctors reside and mechanics apprentice. I'd say the closest a pilot would come to such a comparison would be the right seat. That's where they'll learn the trade while paying their dues(FO pay and schedule). Of course it's a weak comparison as it doesn't account for single pilot/piston ops.
Bingo!
Exactly.
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Brown Bear
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by Brown Bear »

fish4life wrote:
scopiton wrote:it's not bad in itself to get a ground job while finishing your IFR/ME/CPL/IATRA thing.
the problem is, when you do this to get a right seat, you're distorting the hiring game for the other guys next to you.
ramp people get hired after few months/years on the ramp but they have close to none flight experience and half of it is with an instructor.
so what does really qualify them for a right seat in such company than any other pilot sending his resume with five times more experience who doesn't get hired ?
then what are the real requirements for the position ? Fight experience or ramp experience ? how do we count that ?
will we have to work on the ramp with a valid ATPL to obtain this seat within a good company ?
what is more valuable : a guy who towed aircraft on the ramp, or flight experience in sometimes adverse weather, approach to mins, severe icing enroute ?
it's not even a question of work ethic, but working on the ramp to get a flying job is the best mean to minimize the value of flight experience toward employers.
you guys are burning the bridge who could help you reach the other shore one day.
to be completely honest the best pilots to fly with were the ones with 250 hours when they started and not the people that came in with experience because they didn't have any bad habits and could be taught how to fly the metro right from the beginning. I believe one of the hardest people to train at the company was a guy that came in with 5000 hours, not because he wasn't experienced because he was but he just had a hell of a time adapting to a completely different plane.
Nothing wrong with flying with a guy with 250 hours. But two or three years kissing ass on a ramp often leads to a bitter pilot. Personally, I like the guys with around 1500 hours. It's not quite flight school, but they still have something to learn (Don't we all?) and they know it. I suspect the problem you have with a 5000 hour pilot is, that he may just have something to teach you, and you just don't want to admit it. BTW, I'm real curious. Just WTF is a "completely different" airplane?
:bear: :bear:
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notapilot
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by notapilot »

Pilots do start off with "ground level" positions at Perimeter. They learn the way things work with the company and I think that they have a respect for the ground people's jobs. The "pilots" start off with jobs in reservations, cargo, accounting, parts department and the ramp department. Not only do they get to know people throughout the company, they have more appreciation of the whole business and its people. I think they see the ins and outs of how things run from the ground up so to speak.
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~Hollywood~
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Re: Bearskin, Thunder Air, Wasaya

Post by ~Hollywood~ »

Just WTF is a "completely different" airplane?
That's easy....an MU2 :mrgreen:
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