Junior Pilots, you have control!

[Understated]

Please let us know exactly what the "Senior Pilot" gave up to save the Airline and our jobs.. Non of them were laid off and they are all still on formula pay (some on formula pay +++ 340 wages to fly the 330) while the junior guys are stuck in either the PG (Emb and cruisers) or formula -5% (320 guys) So please show me where the Senior Pilots gave a much larger chunk...

There should be imbued with your sense of entitlement a sense of duty to learn a little history before making such blanket generalizations.

Why don't you ask your senior crew members about the pay-cut (decrease in monthly block hours) that we took in the early '90s, in order to prevent lay-offs? Ask any of the 243 pilots senior to you who were ultimately then laid off for close to two years (because the pay cut eventually still wasn't sufficient to match the reduced flying) about how they see your current fit in the mix, and especially about your lack of awareness of what they did for their junior peers.

[JayDee]

People, Google is your friend, a little knowledge can clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

The top guys gave up 30% in CCAA, do the math and you'll come up with $100G... Where is all this entitlement coming from? You knew the score when you joined. If its any concellation, you won't be in the paygroup for much longer, and I'll bet you change your tune then.

Leading Edge,

Our generation is responsible for what is happening today. We have unwittingly created the new " ME" generation by trying to make their lives better than ours. Their entitlement has been bred into them, by us, since day one so in effect it is not really their fault as it's all they have ever known.


“Jean Twenge, a psychology professor at San Diego State University, says that this includes virtually everyone born after 1970. According to Twenge, these young people were raised on a daily regimen of praise and flattery from their baby boomer parents and from teachers who embraced a self-esteem-boosting curriculum that included activities like the Magic Circle game. Never heard of it? In this game, one child a day is given a badge that says "I'm great." The other children then take turns praising the "great" child, and eventually these compliments are written up and given to the child for posterity. This constant reinforcement, argues Twenge, is largely responsible for those young co-workers who drive you nuts. “

Does this next statement remind you of anyone? Hint....as in MEC ?

“Narcissists are so sure of themselves that they ignore the advice of others – and even the dictates of common sense – and arrogantly blunder their way into serious trouble. “

[Big Pistons Forever]

Bigpistonsforever - cool name BTW

US Pension law is completely irrelevant to the current Canadian situation. We have completely different laws, maybe you should investigate them... If you do, you'll find out the the wholesale loss of a pension in Canada is not possible without Fraud.

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/200 ... 1-eng.html

The AC Pension that is quoted as being underfunded by $2B is actually underfunded by $1.1B as of Q1 2010, of this, less than 20% belongs to the Pilots.

I do not want to get into a pissing match but yes you are right a total loss of your pension fund requires fraud, however maintaining the advertised full DB payments for the rest of your life requires the company to continue to contribute funds to the pension plan. If AC goes belly up than I would suggest the level of payments will probably diminish significantly as the administrators of the plan can only pay out what the existing assests of the plan will support. All I am saying is anyone in a DB plan should understand how the plan works, be aware of the effect of all possible scenario's on the plans future, and plan their finances accordingly.
Nortel is a usefull case study......

[Max111]

I was part of the 243 pilots that were laid off..and yes the senior pilots all over the system took a large pay cut [% of flying pay] to keep us flying....a much greater amount than junior FO's. They also agree to a second round of pay cuts to keep us from being laid off but Hollis Harris [CEO at the time] refused to allow it. It was a very difficult time for AC with thousands of layoffs and because of this, Mr. Harris felt that all employee groups should do their part to save the airline. I agreed with his reasoning and the approx two years of layoffs turned out to be a positive experience for my family.

One should know that in the 1980's, it took about 20 years to be promoted to Captain and 16 years to be an FO on the 767 in YYZ. Our starting salary was approx $24,000. All of us took a pay cut to join AC and all were willing to wait. A large number of us had part time jobs outside the industry as we waited.

We should be able to get rid of the pay group in this round of negotiations but some how we have lost our way. The reds against the blues against the purples....the young against the old.
These forums where one is allowed to remain anonymous do not represent us....they cater to the vocal and very small minority........we are more than this and one day in the future we will retake the high ground and represent all pilots !!

[bcflyer]

="LeadingEdge

People, Google is your friend, a little knowledge can clear up a lot of misunderstanding.

The top guys gave up 30% in CCAA, do the math and you'll come up with $100G... Where is all this entitlement coming from? You knew the score when you joined. If its any concellation, you won't be in the paygroup for much longer, and I'll bet you change your tune then.

Actually I did do some reasearch on this exact subject.. Here's a link for your reading...

http://...blogspot.com/2006_11_01_archive.html

I would appear that the pilots taking the largest hits are the guys at the bottom... I don't see anything even close to your stated %30 for the top guys but rather over %30 for the guys at the bottom.

I won't be in the paygroup much longer? I'm not sure what you consider to be much longer but I can tell you that my wife is getting pretty tired of having to live off of our line of credit. While we are on the topic, how exactly did you figure that I'll be out soon? Hiring 51 guys won't do much for moving me onto formula pay.

As for my sense of entitlement, all I have ever argued for was that everyone be on equal footing.. True formula pay for everyone. Period.

[bcflyer]

One should know that in the 1980's, it took about 20 years to be promoted to Captain and 16 years to be an FO on the 767 in YYZ. Our starting salary was approx $24,000. All of us took a pay cut to join AC and all were willing to wait. A large number of us had part time jobs outside the industry as we waited.

Please spare me the "things were much tougher when I started" speech.

In the 1980's pilots were hired much younger, much less experienced and started as S/O's to pay their dues while learning how the industry worked.

Todays new hires are around 35-40 ys old, have mortgages, families etc, have been flying for 15-20yrs, have 6000-10,000+ hrs and many have been captains on A320's, 757's etc etc already. Hardly an equal comparison.

Our starting salary is now just over $37,000 which equates to just over $18,000 in 1985 dollars. I can guarantee that it is a huge paycut for the majority of newhires coming over. I have a few friends that would love to fly for Air Canada and would make excellent employees but simply can't afford to take the kind of paycut that would be required. And yes there are many of us that still hold second jobs while working at Air Canada.

[yycflyguy]

Both Jazz and Westjet pay their new hires better than AC. In the last wave of hiring, I saw former colleagues successful in both AC and Westjet selection process. Not a single one of them chose AC. Speaks volumes.

Why don't you ask your senior crew members about the pay-cut (decrease in monthly block hours) that we took in the early '90s, in order to prevent lay-offs?

So you are pointing to reduced DMM from 20 years ago to show how senior membership looks out for junior pilots? The same Junior pilots that weren't even hired until 2000 and later? Interesting how A330 guys still enjoy the blended A340/A330 rates but we can't even get the entire fleet on formula or the additional 5% back to the A320. Fly til you die will be back, figuratively. I still don't see the numbers of guys willing to go till late 60s or 70s will be significant. Meaning more disgruntled juniors in the system.

My wake up call was how the pay progression issue was handled (or better put, not handled). We watched "lets" be given to the company for volcanic disruptions that only benefited a small percentage of 67 guys. Watched a CA pass last summer to protect the pension. Saw the appointment (no vote) on our "negotiations committee" who are all widebody and/or YVR based. Corruption of senior MEC official blatantly disregard the membership on potential further "lets" on Scope and promises of more YVR widebody flying. This "round" of negotiations is already in the bag for the company. Next to nothing for the group and only small gains for the widebody. But don't worry, you will get to fly it one day too. Absolutely nothing will benefit the A320 or EMB.

The interesting point about this thread is that while calling our generation "entitled" Junior numbers continue to grow. Another 51 pilots will get to experience the bottom. You think it is only a few disgruntled, vocal members hiding behind anonymity? Guess again.

[Localizer]

Correct me if i'm wrong .. but did I just read a statement from one of the privileged, and pro "fly past 60" folks say the junior pilots have a sense of entitlement?


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/974412/posts

[pilotidentity]

This thread is a good example of those who have a lot wanting more.

[short bus]

i thought max111 had a great post, too bad people aren't taking the time to actually read it.

[BushCaddy]

Good post JS.

I think us junior guys forget how much pull we have, and just assume the current pay scale is set in stone.

I'm all in favor of say a 10% increase on the Embraer and 320 (with a corresponding decrease on the 777/767/330). I'd rather have the money now, and not some empty promise down the road.

Perhaps its time to test our strength.

[ack]

... the wholesale loss of a pension in Canada is not possible without Fraud.

http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/200 ... 1-eng.html

The AC Pension that is quoted as being underfunded by $2B is actually underfunded by $1.1B as of Q1 2010, of this, less than 20% belongs to the Pilots.[/quote]

What about the SERP? There is no security of the SERP, other than top up from RCA.

[WetJet]

Thanks for all you have contributed over the years JS. Can't blame you for leaving.

[TyrellCorp]

This thread is a good example of those who have a lot wanting more.

And they don't have to worry one bit as we will take damn good care of their pension when we get there. It'll be as safe as a peach