AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN FEb
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
It seems a lot of Jazz people have been rubbed the wrong way by this. The claim of downward wage pressure isn't true if the rumoured FO and Capt wages floating around the island are true. These rumoured numbers are higher than both Porter and Jazz pay (Based on year 1 FO and Cap) and could bode well for both of those companies employees. Sky Service paid their pilots very well previously. I think some Jazz people are just grasping for a reason why this is bad for everyone when really they want to have a guarantee of all Tier 2 work and be able to run as their own business including contracts competing against AC.
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Why do so many of you INSIST on hijacking these threads.
Who gives a sh*t about Jazz, Air Canada, their CBAs, wages or anything else? It's not relevant to Sky Regional.
Some members of AvCanada would actually like to find something intelligent and relevant posted about a new service.
With all due respect, might I suggest you take your CBA and ACPA nonsense over to the appropriate thread?
Pilots willing to work for this new outfit are most likely willing to accept whatever wage is offered and as far as I know, the pilots who are likely to work there will have no union (at this stage) and no CBA. So, WTF are some of you thinking??? ACPA is not a business. It doesn't run Air Canada and it doesn't represent the pilots willing to secure a flying job somewhere other than Air Canada.
There isn't much being said about this new operation so let's give interested parties an opportunity to inform the group.
Gino Under
Who gives a sh*t about Jazz, Air Canada, their CBAs, wages or anything else? It's not relevant to Sky Regional.
Some members of AvCanada would actually like to find something intelligent and relevant posted about a new service.
With all due respect, might I suggest you take your CBA and ACPA nonsense over to the appropriate thread?
Pilots willing to work for this new outfit are most likely willing to accept whatever wage is offered and as far as I know, the pilots who are likely to work there will have no union (at this stage) and no CBA. So, WTF are some of you thinking??? ACPA is not a business. It doesn't run Air Canada and it doesn't represent the pilots willing to secure a flying job somewhere other than Air Canada.
There isn't much being said about this new operation so let's give interested parties an opportunity to inform the group.
Gino Under
"I'll tell you what's wrong with society. No one drinks from the skulls of their enemies!"
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Air Canada has everything to do with this thread ...as quoted from the article """""""""""Air Canada's initial schedule will offer customers the choice of up to 15 daily non-stop flights from Billy Bishop Toronto City Airport, in close proximity to downtown Toronto, to Montreal Trudeau International Airport.Gino Under wrote:Why do so many of you INSIST on hijacking these threads.
Who gives a sh*t about Jazz, Air Canada, their CBAs, wages or anything else? It's not relevant to Sky Regional.
Some members of AvCanada would actually like to find something intelligent and relevant posted about a new service.
"We are very excited to return to Toronto City Airport in the coming months,""""""""""""""
Sky Regional is not operating for the sake of their own fun. They are operating .... for whom I ask ? Does it not state AIR CANADA in the article?
Mistake on my behalf while writing! Ask yourself why Jazz at this point in time has nothing to do with what’s going on at YTZ? Jazz behind the scenes has quite a lot to do with the Air Canada’s choice to go ahead and do this. Air Canada at the reigns is worse than Jazz. So my point about “porter” having em by the balls still stands!yycflyguy wrote:Re-read the article. Jazz will not be a player in YTZ. SkyRegional will commence Feb flights under a CPA with Air Canada.winds_in_flight_wtf wrote:Atleast porter has everyone by the balls! I also can NOT at this very moment, picture more airplanes at YTZ (is already quite congested). Mix in some bad weather... ( porter lounges turn into concentration camps) with just PD traffic.
Sadly though, if Jazz proceeds with the air canada cheap shot tactic of dropping fairs to jetsgo prices .... I have no doubt Mr. Deluce will tell them to find their own fuel - lounge- etc:) I look forward to future drama!
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
winds_in_flight_wtf
You're very astute. It IS about Air Canada operating in partnership with Sky Regional off YTZ. So, what relevance would Air Canada's business plans or partnerships have to do with Jazz pilot wages or AC pilot wages or what's in either's CBA? 57s don't operate off YTZ. The relevance of that would be what?
What has any of the above crap got to do with any of the threads on Sky Regional??
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
I think your comment about Mr. D's response is probably right on. I also think the relationship between Mr. D and AC has more to do with WHY Jazz aren't in the game. To me, it sounds like somebody is trying a creative solution to get in the game and it isn't Mr. D.
Gino Under
You're very astute. It IS about Air Canada operating in partnership with Sky Regional off YTZ. So, what relevance would Air Canada's business plans or partnerships have to do with Jazz pilot wages or AC pilot wages or what's in either's CBA? 57s don't operate off YTZ. The relevance of that would be what?
What has any of the above crap got to do with any of the threads on Sky Regional??
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
I think your comment about Mr. D's response is probably right on. I also think the relationship between Mr. D and AC has more to do with WHY Jazz aren't in the game. To me, it sounds like somebody is trying a creative solution to get in the game and it isn't Mr. D.
Gino Under
"I'll tell you what's wrong with society. No one drinks from the skulls of their enemies!"
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Gino, there is talk that with this new CPA with a new tier II that the pilots hired for SkyRegional will be put on the ACPA seniority list. BOTL. It is more complicated (read "dirty") than what you present. The politics behind it all are very significant. There is a very close relationship with the ex-SkyService pilot union president and ACPA's.Pilots willing to work for this new outfit are most likely willing to accept whatever wage is offered and as far as I know, the pilots who are likely to work there will have no union (at this stage) and no CBA. So, WTF are some of you thinking??? ACPA is not a business. It doesn't run Air Canada and it doesn't represent the pilots willing to secure a flying job somewhere other than Air Canada.
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
WTF?!?!?!yycflyguy wrote:Gino, there is talk that with this new CPA with a new tier II that the pilots hired for SkyRegional will be put on the ACPA seniority list. BOTL. It is more complicated (read "dirty") than what you present. The politics behind it all are very significant. There is a very close relationship with the ex-SkyService pilot union president and ACPA's.
Holy hell, this just keeps getting better!?!
- Team Firecracker
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
holy hijack batman! I knew ac was only going into there to screw jazz pilots!
I think race to the bottom is the apropriate comment. AC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC. remember the whole deluce getting free flights on ac for life....awesome lol.
AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this.
the problem with jazz is their management doesn't play that game.they seem intent on making a profit.....what a thought!
I think race to the bottom is the apropriate comment. AC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC. remember the whole deluce getting free flights on ac for life....awesome lol.
AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this.
the problem with jazz is their management doesn't play that game.they seem intent on making a profit.....what a thought!
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
They don't even need to slash prices to do that - the huge majority of Porter's business traffic ONLY fly on Porter because they have no other option out of the city centre - the allure of frequent flyer points and connections onto a worldwide network will prove difficult, if not impossible for Porter to counterAC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC
How is breaking up a monopoly a predatory tactic? Why shouldn't anyone else be able to operate from YTZ?AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this
- Team Firecracker
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
i agree that breaking the monopoply is good, if the market will support it.
my suggestion is as soon as ac is in place, fares will drop way below break even prices till someone is broke.
my suggestion is as soon as ac is in place, fares will drop way below break even prices till someone is broke.
- Dark Helmet
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
All we do is speculate folks, every time the news flash comes up!
Ground handling....they can hire any g.h. agency for minimum wage or offer the bid to their existing AC staff (like they had before) and have them move there. Not as cheap as first option.
Driving the wages down? How do we know?...anyone out there had an interview with these guys yet? Did they say how much are they offering?
I can go on and speculate things and tell you that I heard from a guy who got an interview and told me it was 95K/year but I'm just tossing numbers then....IMHO I can't see them paying less then Porter...
Okay, We need to look at this from a different perspective and not be shortsighted by looking at the wage alone.
Lets just say the starting wage is:Capt 95K and FO 45K (I am just picking numbers here as I do not know what the starting wage will be at sky regional)
Both are higher than Jazz, Porter, Etc. However, this is a start up airline, therefore the wages will be the starting wage for all pilots.
The Average Jazz Capt (25, 20 years in) makes more than that. The average Jazz FO (15,10,5 yrs) also makes more than that.
Also, we need to look at the bells and whistles.
Will the Skyregionals pilots have a pension?
What will their perdiems be like? work rules?, benefits?
This is called recycling of pilots. This has been happening in the States. a Mainline Carrier has Airline A (Established carrier) doing their feed. Airline B comes in as a startup airline with a mainline CPA. Mainline slowly farms out flying from Airline A to B. Eventually, airline A pilots are laid-off from airline A and force to start all over at airline B.
BTW Mainline pilots are not protected from being recycled either.
At least the 757 pilots at Jazz are senior pilots making the top salary wage at Jazz.
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Never mind
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600RVR
Deleted by me
600RVR
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
When a new airline does it it's competition, when AC does it is predatory
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- quickflight
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
It is only predatory when the purpose is to kill the prey. In other words when a larger or richer company comes in and reduces prices to below the cost of the competitor while taking a loss, or reducing costs to well below normal market pricing with the purpose of removing competetion from the market place.
Example: Porter starts flying to YSB and sets their price, Air Canada immediately lowers their price for only that flight time to match them and $5 less. I heard lots of people complain about predation. That is just good competetion. In other cases especially when Westjet was starting Air Canada would drop their prices to below their own cost and take a loss in an attempt to maintain market. Air Canada since ceasing to be a crown corp has now been cited 4 times by the competion tribunal for preditory pricing. I don't see that happening again but do see a senario for a great battle.
IMHO I think it will be far less damaging to have AC there than most think. If you want to operate a successful restaurant you put it where there are lots of restaurants. I think the additional draw of traffic to the island will be good for all. With the slot allotment the way it is there are still too many other routes that porter does that are very successsful for 46 slots (23flights)at the island to kill the whole company. Especially when Porter has 156 slots (78 flights) and half that again from other out stations to other destinations.
Good luck to all involved in that.
As for the Jazz/AC/ACPA/SKY thing... 'this isn't much more tha AC's sense of entitlement', thats a quote from a retired regional manager for AC. I don't know that I agree but if I were working for Jazz, or AC I would watch for backflow and outsourcing. It will happen. Look south. He who can be paid with pesos wins the contract.
Example: Porter starts flying to YSB and sets their price, Air Canada immediately lowers their price for only that flight time to match them and $5 less. I heard lots of people complain about predation. That is just good competetion. In other cases especially when Westjet was starting Air Canada would drop their prices to below their own cost and take a loss in an attempt to maintain market. Air Canada since ceasing to be a crown corp has now been cited 4 times by the competion tribunal for preditory pricing. I don't see that happening again but do see a senario for a great battle.
IMHO I think it will be far less damaging to have AC there than most think. If you want to operate a successful restaurant you put it where there are lots of restaurants. I think the additional draw of traffic to the island will be good for all. With the slot allotment the way it is there are still too many other routes that porter does that are very successsful for 46 slots (23flights)at the island to kill the whole company. Especially when Porter has 156 slots (78 flights) and half that again from other out stations to other destinations.
Good luck to all involved in that.
As for the Jazz/AC/ACPA/SKY thing... 'this isn't much more tha AC's sense of entitlement', thats a quote from a retired regional manager for AC. I don't know that I agree but if I were working for Jazz, or AC I would watch for backflow and outsourcing. It will happen. Look south. He who can be paid with pesos wins the contract.
hook low flare late
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
AC may hope to entice passengers with quintuple Aeroplan miles, $10 fares and connections (but only from YUL, I should add), but remember that they have only 30 slots at the island.beast wrote:They don't even need to slash prices to do that - the huge majority of Porter's business traffic ONLY fly on Porter because they have no other option out of the city centre - the allure of frequent flyer points and connections onto a worldwide network will prove difficult, if not impossible for Porter to counterAC will slash prices till Deluce goes broke. Its all Deluce vs. AC
How is breaking up a monopoly a predatory tactic? Why shouldn't anyone else be able to operate from YTZ?AC is just doing its typical predatory tactics that drove both ac and canadian broke before all this
How exactly are 15 round trips to YUL per day supposed to appeal to the high yield-time sensitive business traveller? And when do you think they will be allocated these slots? Peak times, I don't think so.
Don't forget who owns the terminal and infrastructure...
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
How about this from the interview,
Sky is paying hourly and salary not 95k to start.
Be realistic this is a start up and there are only 75 seats behind you.
Depending on how much you fly you might be lucky to make near 70k
10 days off a month.
Sky is paying hourly and salary not 95k to start.
Be realistic this is a start up and there are only 75 seats behind you.
Depending on how much you fly you might be lucky to make near 70k
10 days off a month.
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Did you personally go to the interview?airliner wrote:How about this from the interview,
Sky is paying hourly and salary not 95k to start.
Be realistic this is a start up and there are only 75 seats behind you.
Depending on how much you fly you might be lucky to make near 70k
10 days off a month.
If yes, what else can you say about it?
Born to fly, forced to work
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Somebody has to have feedback from the interview. Nobody cares to share?
B.
B.
Born to fly, forced to work
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Maybe the pay and working conditions are so crap, they had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. lol
- pacificwind
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Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
The rumour is...
for whatever reasons, AC wants to bury Porter come hell or high water. Simple and clear! Is that going to happen? Who knows? However, United/Continental and AC are all jockeying for position in YTZ.
for whatever reasons, AC wants to bury Porter come hell or high water. Simple and clear! Is that going to happen? Who knows? However, United/Continental and AC are all jockeying for position in YTZ.
Re: AIR CANADA TO COMMENCE TORONTO CITY AIRPORT FLIGHTS IN F
Apparently they"ll start with 5 aircrafts, they need 4 a day ( I supposed 1 spare to start with ). 3 aircafts out of YUL on the morning, 1 out of YTZ. 15 flights a day from monday to friday. A little bit less on week-ends.
3/4 of the crews based out of YUL. Looking now for 34 pilots.
The contract with AC is for 5 years. The benefits are still to be determined ( will have passes, insurances, 2 weeks vacation after a year in service....)
Base salary, capt : 52000$ + 23$/hrs Flight credit = approx 75000$ ( 80 to 85 hours a months )
F/O : 31200$ + 14$/hrs = 46000$ ( same conditions as above )
Looks like they will be no biding for schedules, blocks will be built and assigned . Approx 10 days OFF a month, some stbys and reserve ( grey ) days. Expected to fly 4 to 6 legs a day.
3/4 of the crews based out of YUL. Looking now for 34 pilots.
The contract with AC is for 5 years. The benefits are still to be determined ( will have passes, insurances, 2 weeks vacation after a year in service....)
Base salary, capt : 52000$ + 23$/hrs Flight credit = approx 75000$ ( 80 to 85 hours a months )
F/O : 31200$ + 14$/hrs = 46000$ ( same conditions as above )
Looks like they will be no biding for schedules, blocks will be built and assigned . Approx 10 days OFF a month, some stbys and reserve ( grey ) days. Expected to fly 4 to 6 legs a day.
Last edited by bzhpilot on Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.