Impact of YYC no longer accepting general aviation

[Kgilb496]

Hi there,

My name is Kalyn Gilbert and I am a reporter with the Calgary Journal. I am writing a story about the traffic situation at YBW. Specifically, the story will focus on the state of the airport and its operations now that YYC is pushing away smaller aviation.

I'd love to speak with any pilots, students, instructors, or anyone else that might be impacted by this decision.

Feel free to email me if you are interested in discussing this further:

kgilb496@gmail.com

[SierraPoppa]

How did you come to the conclusion that YYC is no longer accepting general aviation?

My understanding is that they do not wish to have any unlicensed (student) pilots flying solo at YYC but that's a long way from refusing access to general aviation.

By the way, what is the Calgary Journal? Never heard of it.

[Kgilb496]

I was under the impression that student flights were no longer being accepted, as well as general traffic. What I am trying to do right now is gain some clarity - what is the state of things? Is there an issue?

I have a call into Calgary Airport Authority to get some facts straight, but I was hoping that there was someone else to walk me through what is going on.

For more info on the Journal: Calgary Journal's website is http://www.calgaryjournalonline.ca/

Cheers.

[Kgilb496]

And sorry, I must clarify... I was told that YYC is pushing general aviation away with high landing fees, as well as the absence of flight school/ rentals.

Truly different message, so again, I apologize.

[privateer]

General Aviation is a very broad term. I believe the term would be "No ab initio training", last time I checked in the Canadian Flight Supplement on Calgary Int’l. Because of this the last flight school on the field "YYC" had to move to YBW. Some Charter flights that have duty day issues with the delays have to sometimes change their destination to YBW. This is due to delays in getting a departure time from their point of origin to YYC. It is very frustrating and a parallel runway system is long overdue which could alleviate the congestion all together.

2 cents.

[SierraPoppa]

So what is the YYC airport authority doing about it? They're just dumping the "training" at CYBW and plan to forget about it, or what? Springbank is growing too fast... And the airport authority is doing nothing to improve it.

The Calgary Airport Authority has done more for Springbank since it took over than the Feds ever did since it opened in 1969.

Actually Springbank traffic is down almost 40,000 movements in each of the last two years compared to its recent high of 181,000 movements in 2007. So It's hard to believe it's growing too fast.

[MUSKEG]

CYYC could move subtantially more traffic but that would entail bringing in controllers from Chicago/Dallas/La etc.etc to show them how it's done. But this is not the Canadian way. These delays are not new and have plaqued Calgary for many many years. So the little guy gets kicked in the chops again.

[NJ]

General aviation is still permitted at YYC. But there is now a restriction on student pilots in the zone, and only one FBO sells 100LL fuel (which most small aircraft use). So you can come to YYC (and many still do), but you have to go to Landmark aviation to refuel, and you can't be a student pilot.

[FOX69]

Single engine airplanes generally don't fly into large international airports (which YYC claims to be) training or otherwise. The costs incurred by airlines waiting for the slow moving traffic can be significant. A 737 burns more fuel in 10 min of taxi (or idling on the tarmac) than a cessna burns in several hours of flying. Expensive, and bad for the environment.

[SierraPoppa]

Traffic has been down because of the economy. What about the numerous hangers that are going up at the airport? There has been 4 or 5 new buildings put up in the last year, bringing over a dozen individual hangers... With plans for even more to go up still. You think that's not growing? And to access the airport all of this new development uses the same, one, narrow, old taxiway that's been there since the airport was built in 1969.

Just because Springbank doesn't have as many movements as two years ago doesn't mean that its still not too congested. It doesn't have the infrastructure for 181,000, or 141,000 movements.

The airport manager's assistant left this past summer because her plans to expand/improve the airport were vito'd.

Of course traffic is down because of the economy, that's the nature of Springbank.

Lot's of building doesn't necessarily equate to lots of movements.

Were you around when Springbank was at it's peak? I kind of doubt it.

You think it's congested and doesn't have the infrastructure to support 141,000 or even 181,000 movements? It's actually pretty damned quiet compared to 241,000 at its peak in 1979 with virtually zero infrastructure and a 2,200 foot runway 07/25.

[SierraPoppa]

You're telling me that at 241,000 movements per year, traffic flow in the air and on the ground was entirely perfect? No traffic jams? No line ups to take off? No ground congestion?
Haha.... Right.

Did I say anything at all about perfect? No. So don't put words in my mouth.

I said the airport handled a lot more traffic with less infrastructure than it currently has.

[Kgilb496]

Thank you all for your input. It is truly very interesting.

SierraPoppa, with your knowledge of what the airport handled in the past, what were the issues that popped up with handling so many movements? Can you see there being any issues popping up with the airport presently?

[NJ]

I said the airport handled a lot more traffic with less infrastructure than it currently has.

And a lot less rules too, i'd say our MANOPS is triple what it was in 1979

[Kgilb496]

Worthyofed,

What improvements in infrastructure would you suggest need to be made?

[TreeBlender]

worthyofed, I agree with everything you've said except for your comments on the traffic flow in the air and ground. Have you ever waited for hours for a flow time? It's rare to have more then a few minutes delay getting airborne and even more rare to be delayed when you're inbound. 95 percent of the time CYBW can handle significantly more traffic. The only time CYBW gets busy enough to have to delay aircraft inbound or outbound, is at the end of or beginning of the flight schools slot times. All of the flight schools have their flight times scheduled for the same times. Of course it'll get busy and appear to be a zoo when everyone is booking planes at 5 major schools at the exact time. They all call up together, they all taxi out together, and they all come back together. These are the times that CYBW gets busy and appears to be close to capacity. The other 95 percent of the time, the airport could have a lot more traffic using it. I purposely fly in-between booking times and I never get delayed, and always get any special procedures that I request. If you want to increase the capacity at CYBW, get the schools to change the booking times.

The numbers from back in the day were as large as they were because there would be 12 planes in the circuit following each other all day long with very few itinerant movements and no jet or turboprop traffic to mix into the flow. Todays traffic includes significantly more itinerant traffic, as well as a different mix with helicopters, IFR approaches, faster traffic, etc

[SierraPoppa]

I said the airport handled a lot more traffic with less infrastructure than it currently has.

And a lot less rules too, I'd say our MANOPS is triple what it was in 1979

Yep, it's impossible to move the same amount of traffic today just with MANOPS changes alone.

Also in 1979 there were no arrival procedures they were developed later.

No two frequency operations either.

[SierraPoppa]

The numbers from back in the day were as large as they were because there would be 12 planes in the circuit following each other all day long with very few itinerant movements and no jet or turboprop traffic to mix into the flow. Todays traffic includes significantly more itinerant traffic, as well as a different mix with helicopters, IFR approaches, faster traffic, etc

Those days of 12 in the circuit will never be back thank goodness. Consider those 12 along with all the arrivals and/or departures to the practice area because of the previously mentioned booking practices (one guy in the practice area wore "the watch") and you had a zoo. A barely manageable zoo especially with no arrival procedures, everything from the northwest came direct to the slough if that is even still there.

The current mix and some sensibility regarding numbers in the circuit means Springbank is unlikely to ever handle those kinds of numbers ever again...which is likely a good thing.

[tripleseven]

I saw on the YVR atis last week that there was flow control into YYC. I thought it was a joke. Every time I get a hold going in there (which isn't very often I might add, like two or three times), we get the hand off to arrival, and there is like three other call signs checked on. What gives?

[bmc]

What about Okotoks, High River, Indus, Airdrie?

I haven't lived in the area for twelve years. Are they still active and capable of handling the spill?

[Posthumane]

Anytime I fly to Calgary I prefer to use Indus over Springbank. In fact, I've only ever gone to springbank twice, and I didn't care for it that much. That being said, Indus, Airdrie, and Okotoks are all PPR fields. I know Wayne Winters a bit, so I have no issues without flying in to Inuds without calling him every time, but last time I wanted to go to Okotoks or Airdrie for my night cross country I couldn't get a hold of anyone to get permission.

[HeadingAltitudeSpeed]

But there is now a restriction on student pilots in the zone

Not "now" but always. The restriction on student training has been around for 20 years. It was there when I was instructing and was never removed. Schools just began to push the envelope and it eventually caught up with them. I spent many hours sitting in the ATCO trailer in CFV2 while my student did solo practice. The restriction is just being enforced now, mainly due to issues with non-licenced students impacting the operations negatively.

CYYC could move subtantially more traffic but that would entail bringing in controllers from Chicago/Dallas/La etc.etc to show them how it's done. But this is not the Canadian way. These delays are not new and have plaqued Calgary for many many years. So the little guy gets kicked in the chops again.

Thank you for an over simplistic solution to a problem you don't understand. Please come spend a day with me in front of the scope. After you fully understand the rules, restrictions and complexities of what we do I will consider your input for solving the problems. As has been stated there are a number or regulatory changes that have caused a reduction in capacity. But one of the biggest causes is the way operators are choosing to fly their aircraft. Nobody does anything fast anymore. Occupying the runway for an excess of 60 seconds may not seem like a big deal to you but it means the difference between 5 or 6 miles between arrivals. This equates to a difference of 4 aircraft an hour into the airport. Spill that out over the course of the peak demand periods and suddenly the unlucky guy is getting an hour delay. But I am sure a Dallas controller could fix it.

CYYC is more than capable of working with only one runway. And it barely affects their traffic flow, if at all! Yet they need a parallel.

Not quite. Yes we can run on a single runway but it does impact the maximum capacity significantly. The parallel is long overdue. There are a few things that have bridged the gap and reduced the impact of the delay. The death of Canadian, 9/11 traffic drops, general economy and systems/procedures on our side that allowed for maximum use of a crossing runway. We joke that we have had a parallel for a long time, it just happens to be offset by 60 degrees and cross.

I saw on the YVR atis last week that there was flow control into YYC. I thought it was a joke. Every time I get a hold going in there (which isn't very often I might add, like two or three times), we get the hand off to arrival, and there is like three other call signs checked on. What gives?

Again a misconception of flow control. The intent is to ensure the traffic in the terminal does not spend extensive time at low altitudes going downwind. If you got a flow delay and then came onto the arrival frequency with 12 aircraft and went downwind for 30 miles would you be a happy camper? No, you would be screaming about what was the point of the ground delay if you were only going to get delayed on arrival. Instead you took a delay and then came into the terminal and were able to maintain a normal profile to the runway without extensive vectors. Surprise, the system worked as it should.

There are times when a hold will occur and then you will still get the vectors from hell. This is usually because something has caused a problem. Weather, emergency, runway change, overshoots or something else. As Forest Gump would say, Shit Happens.

[PanEuropean]

But there is now a restriction on student pilots in the zone

Heck, that seems pretty reasonable to me. Calgary can be a pretty busy airport at times, and there is a lot of high-speed traffic there. There is no shortage of nearby airports for student pilots to use, in fact, Springbank airport appears to almost 'specialize' in serving student pilots.

I think it's kind of a 'horses for courses' thing - Nav Canada offers a complete Air Traffic Control service at Springbank airport, using controllers who are very experienced working with students and sensitive to the needs of students. They also offer a complete Air Traffic Control service at Calgary International, using controllers who are very experienced working with fully licenced pilots and are capable of meeting the needs of all sorts of aircraft at the same time, from slow moving single engine aircraft to wide body scheduled air carriers.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable for the folks at Calgary to ask the students to use other nearby airports until they obtain a Private Pilot Licence.

Michael

[JAHinYYC]

(...) but last time I wanted to go to Okotoks or Airdrie for my night cross country I couldn't get a hold of anyone to get permission.

The CFS says that CFX2 is PPR, a few years back when I called and spoke to the flight school (Fly Right's satellite operation (403) 938-5252) they said no issues using the field whenever desired. I had my airplane based there in 2009 until we moved in the spring and I don't know that anyone had issues with itinerant traffic.

The issue at CFX2 is tiedown and fuel. The school sells fuel only when open (somewhat irregular hours) and I think you have to talk to the survey company for tiedowns.

That said scout the field carefully:

1) There is an unfortunate water feature a couple hundred yards West of the threshold of 34 which attracts waterfowl that like to feed and loiter near the runway.
2) All circuits are flown on the East side of the field so as to not disturb the neighbors;
3) The local non aviation residents seem to love the long open paved spaces and regularly walk their dogs and allow their children to ride bikes all over the place - the logic that this part of the development should be reserved for the use of the noisy things with the spinning machetes on the front appears to elude some (sigh); and
4) The runway developed a troubling frost heave approximately 800 feet from the threshold of 16 last spring. That little rascal launched me into the air prematurely (and I knew it was there) on takeoff one morning. Apparently it is an annual fixture of the field owing to the passage of a buried utility line in the area from West to East.

Down the road CEN4 (High River) has 24hr self serve with a credit card, or you can buy a little cheaper from Murray's Aircraft Repair whenever they are around. There the skitters will drain you dry in the summer time and I have seen a herd of deer evenly divided on either side of runway 24. Fun!

[shitdisturber]

(...) but last time I wanted to go to Okotoks or Airdrie for my night cross country I couldn't get a hold of anyone to get permission.

The CFS says that CFX2 is PPR, a few years back when I called and spoke to the flight school (Fly Right's satellite operation (403) 938-5252) they said no issues using the field whenever desired.

Oh dear god no! Definitely NOT Fly Right's satellite! That would mean she'd be hanging around and nobody wants that!

That being said; if you want to fly into Okotoks and can't get anybody on the phone for prior permission, don't worry too much about it. You won't be met on the ground by an armed possee ordering you off the field. The school's hours are actually quite regular; somebody's there from 8 to 4, seven days a week except holidays. If they're flying, they're around later but then you're taking your chances. As for fuel, just show up before 4:00; and not at 3:55, that's just rude, and someone will help you out no problem.

[Kgilb496]

Again a misconception of flow control. The intent is to ensure the traffic in the terminal does not spend extensive time at low altitudes going downwind. If you got a flow delay and then came onto the arrival frequency with 12 aircraft and went downwind for 30 miles would you be a happy camper? No, you would be screaming about what was the point of the ground delay if you were only going to get delayed on arrival. Instead you took a delay and then came into the terminal and were able to maintain a normal profile to the runway without extensive vectors. Surprise, the system worked as it should.

There are times when a hold will occur and then you will still get the vectors from hell. This is usually because something has caused a problem. Weather, emergency, runway change, overshoots or something else. As Forest Gump would say, Shit Happens.

HeadingAltitudeSpeed,

From what I understand, Springbank Airport functions as the primary general aviation reliever for Calgary International. Should it help ease the need for flow control? YBW does not currently have a terminal; nor does it have facilities for passengers or charter clients - are these important for Springbank to provide greater help for YYC?

Better question yet, does YYC even need relief? If it doesn't at present, do you foresee it ever being the case?