Air Georgian Expanding Into 705 Ops

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Just read on PCC that Air Alliance/Air Georgian is expanding into 705 ops with Dash-8 charters out of YYZ and will be hiring soon. Anybody have any details? Rumours?

http://www.pilotcareercentre.com/Air-Ca ... r+Alliance

[KAG]

I was wondering when they would get Dash's.

[ScudRunner]

Interesting and CMA out here is starting Dash Operations aswell of course they have been doing the Donier 328 ops for awhile.

Now follow my consipiracy theory on this one, Jazz guys/gals take note: ok so recently AC broke up the the Tier 2 monopoly with Jazz by entering into a contact with SkyRegional and now Air Georgian is getting into Dash 8 operations. I know I know its just one but the way I see it is Jazz will be forced to make cuts and loose routes. CMA out west bidding on jazz routes and Air Georgian in ontario and out east bidding on Jazz work, not to mention SkyRegional coming up the middle...................................

Canada is going the way of the US where presently multiple regional companies bid on routes, its just a matter of time the way I see it multiple Canadian companies bidding lower and lower to keep sucking the teet of Big Red and Im not talking about that chick on Mad Men think her name is Joan but for the record I would support that. Anyway before I digress thinking about that, Jazz pilots should be very alarmed at recent developments its going to happen slowly and one day you will wake up with half the business and TC demanding consesions or they will walking out the door.

[whiteguy]

I could see it! Some routes out west have both Jazz & CMA. Lethbridge is one example.

[prop2jet]

.., your theory is not flawed and as evidenced by what has happened down south it is perhaps not impossible to think that some of the flying done by AC with it's narrowbodies may some day end up going to the lowest bidder as well. Let the focus not just be on those who are at Jazz, but everywhere.

[JZA]

And so the cycle repeats again...

Multiple feeders (JAZZ, CMA, Georgian, SkyRegional) will feed the Major (Air Canada) , lowering costs for the mothership... and eventually the four feeders will be bought by the Major, only to be merged to form one single powerful regional carrier only to be spun off and sold for great profit for the Major's shareholders.

All the while Pilot Wages continue to spiral downwards thanks to everyone trying to undercut each other and get the contract.

Here we go again.

[Johnny#5]

I don't know how wages can go lower....whats a CMA F/O make, 20 grand or something ridiculous?

[ZBBYLW]

Honestly, I have a feeling there would be enough people with a hardon for the Q400 that they could easily find some f/os for 20grand a year. My biggest concern for the industry is taking that 20 grand a year to fly a 1900, and now have people fly 705 machines for that same dollar. If that were to be the case, we would be totally fucked as an industry - not that we are doing well for our selves right now.

[Mig29]

I feel the same.

[teacher]

The big trouble for AC pilots will start when AC starts to farm out narrow body flying. Think it won't happen? Think again, dividing up the tier 2 flying is only the start I'm afraid.

[tailgunner]

Teacher, as I see it..JAZZ has peed the bed a bit, and now it seems the game has changed in the last 30 days. You may get 757's, but you may lose elsewhere. I am not sure that this venture into 757/ TC flying will be, or is a net gain for Jazz. You (Jazz) stormed through the front door to get bigger airplanes etc, told everyone how great this was going to be, told everyone that SS was dead already,....but you forgot to lock the back door. Now you may lose your exclusivity, and your relationship to AC has definately changed...

[HavaJava]

As much as I don't like the smell of this SkyRegional Q400 deal or any further tier 2 diversification for that matter, I've got to say the Jazz rhetoric is starting to get a bit old.

You are attacking those above and below you (tier 1 and tier 3). You aren't going to make many friends by telling everyone else how wonderful you are and how stupid they are. Fact is, Jazz has a long history of trying to blame all the industries troubles on others while ignoring the blatantly obvious issues that have come from within.

ACPA may or may not have the ability to stop the further farming out of tier 2 flying, but pissing us off and attempting to be condescending towards us will definitely not swing the flying in your direction.

This flying is not and was never "Jazz's flying". It is Air Canada's flying (I'm not claiming it to be ACPA's either) and they can farm it out to whoever they choose (or decide to keep it in house). Like it or not, Air Canada is your life blood and having a hate on for the mother ship will only get you dumped in the crapper eventually.

[Lateralus]

As much as I don't like the smell of this SkyRegional Q400 deal or any further tier 2 diversification for that matter, I've got to say the Jazz rhetoric is starting to get a bit old.

You are attacking those above and below you (tier 1 and tier 3). You aren't going to make many friends by telling everyone else how wonderful you are and how stupid they are. Fact is, Jazz has a long history of trying to blame all the industries troubles on others while ignoring the blatantly obvious issues that have come from within.

ACPA may or may not have the ability to stop the further farming out of tier 2 flying, but pissing us off and attempting to be condescending towards us will definitely not swing the flying in your direction.

This flying is not and was never "Jazz's flying". It is Air Canada's flying (I'm not claiming it to be ACPA's either) and they can farm it out to whoever they choose (or decide to keep it in house). Like it or not, Air Canada is your life blood and having a hate on for the mother ship will only get you dumped in the crapper eventually.

I got to agree with you havajava as a Jazz guy I think we need to be working together instead of pissing each other off. I know there is some bad blood between the two groups, but its not everyone, and unfortunately the junior guys like myself get pulled into this ongoing pissing match.

It would be nice if both groups could work together now more then ever with skyregional coming on the scene, I don't think its good for anyone. We both have 2 large pilot groups that could have a lot of influence on our respective companies if we pulled together. I believe we need fresh thinking on both sides and stop the petty crap between the two groups.

I only wish I knew how to do this.....

[teacher]

Jazz is an independent company, if it wants to fly tour groups in an A380 they have the right. That flying is NOT restricted under the CPA, move on.

The above has nothing to do with farming out tier 2 flying to the lowest bidder. All the ACPA rhetoric will end when the EMB flying goes out to tender. When you open the door MAKE SURE you know what’s on the other side. Do I want this to happen? NO. Do most Jazz guys want it? NO. But instead of protecting ourselves together your fighting over a few Q400s and you might lose a hell of a lot more. Think the EMB wages are bad now? Wait and see. Thought Jazz was undercutting the competition and lowering standards? Wait and see. Think CR will stop at some Q400 flying? Wait and see.

MAN, if I gotta make this argument one more time I’m gonna have to pour myself a rum, and it’s not even noon yet

[KAG]

Didn’t Milton back in the day want to give all narrow body flying to Jazz, and have AC focus where it makes money (overseas)?. Also doesn't Jazz have about 1.5 billion in a bank account? AC has stabilized itself, but with a few bad quarters could find itself in a bad spot (CCAA) and this time has nothing to leverage. Now think Swiss/air Cross Air. From a purely financial standpoint, Jazz doing the bulk of narrow body flying makes sense. That said, I do not want this to happen, it would just be a further slide down the hill for our profession.

On the other side;
Jazz angers the powers that be at AC, AC spools up the tier 3's, 705 machines show up. When the CPA is up Jazz loses contract, jet flying goes back to AC, and Tier 3's get the Dash flying. Jazz is a shell of itself.

It may stay status quo, with the two groups at each others throat – Which I would like to see changed.


Just being an arm chair conspiracy theorist, I don't want to see anyone lose out.

[HavaJava]

Jazz is an independent company, if it wants to fly tour groups in an A380 they have the right. That flying is NOT restricted under the CPA, move on.

Never did I say Jazz couldn't do this. I know ACPA has a grievance regarding this, but personally I think Jazz is going to get away with this flying. I'm not upset about it from an Air Canada or ACPA perspective, but instead I'm concerned about it from a general industry perspective. Do I think Jazz just stumbled upon this contract naively and innocently after SkyService went under?...not in a million years! Regardless, I don't think this will be a boon for Jazz or in anyway threaten mainline's operation.

My argument was purely and simply regarding CPA outsourcing that IS Air Canada flying with Air Canada flight numbers that is being farmed out to other companies. If you think that the survival of Jazz (at least at the size it currently is) does not depend on a healthy working relationship between both the mothership and ACPA you are sorely mistaken and will be sorry for biting the hand that feeds you.

That last sentence may seem a little harsh...I am definitely not anti-Jazz(I have very close friends that I respect very much that work there), however the anti-jazz sentiment is growing and it continues to grow every time we hear some pompous Jazz pilot spouting condescending remarks about the rest of the industry. I want to see a healthy Jazz that has a place in the Canadian aviation industry....it's important to remember what that place is though.

[teacher]

If you think that the survival of Jazz (at least at the size it currently is) does not depend on a healthy working relationship between both the mothership and ACPA you are sorely mistaken and will be sorry for biting the hand that feeds you.

I could not agree more however until AC used than bought than sold, merged mixed and F'd around with everything a VAST number of these routes were "owned" by many other carriers.

As for the business end I highly doubt mainline is tendering tier 2 flying as revenge for the TC deal. To think that is very naive and very "pilot" of you. If you let emotions cloud your business decisions you WILL get burned, waving your fist in the air in anger as your ship sinks. CR doesn't give a f#$& about the TC deal. It has ZERO effect on the AC bottom-line as the flying was going to go somewhere and whether Jazz did it or someone else is irrelevant. This is actually the best outcome for mainline as it keeps the flying in the family so to speak. Jazz as a now wholly independent company. Having such a huge leash to 1 supplier is financial and economic suicide. Read what many analysts say about Jazz as a company as there key risks, note what is NUMBER 1:

*Taken from CIBC World Markets Institutional Equity Research Change in Recommendation

Key Risks To Price Target
Key risks to our price target for Jazz include its economic dependence on Air
Canada, Bill C-310, labor costs and relations, macroeconomic and geopolitical
conditions, increased competition within the industry, terrorist attacks and
epidemic diseases, and industry regulation.

It only makes good business sense for an independent company to diversify. Now, having said that yes the relationship with mainline is the most important.

Airline execs don't care about seniority or schedules. They don't give a damn about block building and pairing quality and they sure as hell don't give a damn about squabbles among different pilot groups. Money money money and money is all that is on their agenda. The only time they will have pilot concerns on their daily schedule is when it affects the bottom-line. Farming out tier 2 flying is strictly a financial decision; using Jazz to fly shorter lower yield routes is a financial decision. The less they pay the more they have, period. That is where my concerns lie. Mainline pilots want to be successful and feed their families, so do Jazz pilots. (not that I'm saying you're doing this but) Cheering because AC is "sticking it to Jazz" brings down the industry as a whole. Trying to undermine another pilot group in another airline only fosters a desire for revenge especially with all the history between the 2 groups.

Is it noon yet?

[mbav8r]

Havajava wrote;
This flying is not and was never "Jazz's flying". It is Air Canada's flying (I'm not claiming it to be ACPA's either) and they can farm it out to whoever they choose (or decide to keep it in house). Like it or not, Air Canada is your life blood and having a hate on for the mother ship will only get you dumped in the crapper eventually.
and; it continues to grow every time we hear some pompous Jazz pilot spouting condescending remarks about the rest of the industry. I want to see a healthy Jazz that has a place in the Canadian aviation industry....it's important to remember what that place is though.

1st, correct me if I'm wrong but this flying was feeder flying, second for the conspiracy theorist out there. Jazz dropped the lawsuit against Porter and YTZAA in March where AC then picked it up. Who's slots would they have been if Jazz had continued the suit and subsequently won, answer Jazz. So I submit to you either Jazz had the wool pulled over it's eyes in March or Joe was in on it the whole time and new about CR's plan to have another teir 2 bring down cost.
3rd, what place is that exactly??? That sounds pretty pompous and condescending to me, maybe it's just me though

[HavaJava]

what place is that exactly??? That sounds pretty pompous and condescending to me, maybe it's just me though

Yes, sorry, now that I reread that I see how that probably sounded condescending. I more meant that there is a niche for tier 2 flying and Jazz fills that niche quite nicely. When Jazz gets fancy and neglects their bread and butter or hurls insults at those supplying them with the work, then they're putting that bread and butter flying at risk.

[teacher]

Insults? Where? Jazz or any other company wouldn't dare insult their largest customer.

[HavaJava]

Insults? Where? Jazz or any other company wouldn't dare insult their largest customer.

Jazz HQ isn't hurling insults at their customers...I'd suggest you look at your pilot ranks. Believe me, mainline pilots hardly ever slag Jazz or Westjet, but we hear the reverse all the time.

There's just as much Koolaid at Jazz as at Westjet, except it's not coming from HQ, it's coming from a minority of vocal and bitter (resentful?) pilots.

[teacher]

I won't argue with you there but it sadly goes both ways.

[JZA]

I'd suggest you look at your pilot ranks. Believe me, mainline pilots hardly ever slag Jazz

....ummmm yeah I can assure you that the above statement is incorrect. I am ashamed to say that a large percentage of AC mainline pilots slag Jazz every opportunity they get. The sense of entitlement and elitism by some AC mainline pilots is truly disturbing and amazing.

Yes...there is "slag-ing" coming from both sides of the fence...

I have worked for both companies (Jazz & AC) and can say that without a doubt that the AC pilot group as a whole has won the award for most bitter, self centred and confused pilot group in Canada hands down.

[Mig29]

I think the folks on top of AC and Jazz pyramid have ALREADY won!!

With this bickering and mouthing at each other across the tarmac they are winning every day, and only ones profiting will be Tier 3 bosses and folks mentioned above. Not the pilots, where ever you may be working right now....

I think we need to cool off, and not insult guys who are just working at their jobs trying to make a living, and hopefully not get too soured before they retire. I think people need to stop and think and say I AM SORRY I SCREWED UP and agree to correct the problem and move on. Trying to defend each other points of view will only get us nowhere...

KAG, yes Milton even said that in his book....he would love to see AC become international ONLY and have the N.A. flying given to Jazz or whoever... Problem is the whoever part, because that's where we start to spiral down....And you know, he even said he would like if AC pilots were payed on status pay, not per equipment, but I trust this guy less than my local phone company....He is a businessman first, aviation lover....well, way down the list

Teacher, that rum can be handy at times like this even if it's not noon yet

[Dark Helmet]

Hava Java: You mentioned in one of your posts about "Jazz's place in this industry" I ws going to reply "What place is that? Air Canada's bitch?

Of course I have taken that back as I do not think that is what your intent was.

Now Jazz's place in this industry is basically to survive as a company. That's it!

Jazz feels the need to diversify because the CPA with AC is too expensive. Not that is CPA is reflective of the actual operating cost at Jazz as that was unchanged between Jazz being owned by AC and sold off by ACE. Also, there financial uncertainty at AC is another factor.

AC feels that they need to diversify their feed to bring the cost down and also to not be affected if there is any labour disruption at Jazz.

In the end,

This CPA created by ACE to benefit ACE, Jazz, and AC execs has created a cold war between the 2 conpanies where they feel that they have to move away from each other.