Camp Mirage (UAE vs Canada)

[tempo]

I agree with the guys! that is we leave the base and all the free world pilots flying for the emirate terrorists ought to strike....
and not let them have the 6 flights /day into Toronto, return the favour!
for what they are doing is blackmail; so much for a secret military base lol

[TheCheez]

Aussie Mike has gotta be crying right now.

The tension with UAE was simmering during my time there a few years back and it was pretty clear that our welcome mat was time limited even back then.

I'm very glad we're not getting pushed around. UAE were 'nice' to let us stage there but we paid plenty for the privilege without the blackmail and injected a substantial amount into the local economy....maybe not a substantial amount in UAE terms actually but I'm sure there's a few new supercars on the Dubai freeways thanks to the CF.

[tailgunner]

Not only should we give them the heave from yyz, but we should also close our airspace to them. Think about all of those polar routes having to detour.....
Dubai has a population less then the greater Toronto area, yet they want to create, and are on the way to creating , the worlds largest international airline...They are predators. looking for another meal. Ask Australia, and India how having these guys around has helped or hurt their industry.

[teacher]

Found this link attached to an associated press article. Did someone say mirage?

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s ... 4&t=h&z=19

[airceo]

I have been blogging about the UAE-Canada bilateral saga for a while now and all I can say is that this has been handled very poorly indeed by the UAE. Any change to the bilateral should be mutually beneficial but the UAE has almost nothing to offer Canada in return for the unfettered access it is requesting. The whole situation is ridiculous and with this latest turn has become infantile. I blogged about this topic again last night and was met with a nasty email this morning calling me an infidel despite the fact that I made no objectionable statements about the UAE or EK. Puzzling and disappointing. http://airceo.com/fah

airceo

[Gino Under]

Canada pulls out of Afghanistan in 2011. So who gives a ... about getting booted out of Camp Mirage? We won't be needing any Camp Mirage after that, so, the UAE has to pressure Canada on behalf of EK and EY. It's their only ace in the poker game of politics.

Nice to see Canada isn't caving in to EK and EY pressuring their government (aka Shk Mohamed bin rashid al maktoum who runs Emirates).
EK has ordered a sh**load of A380s and needs to operate them to a sh**load of new destinations if there's any chance of deriving an income to pay for them. If they can't operate them and generate enough dirhams to make a go of it, it could spell another AUH bailout for DXB further adding to the embarassment of a certain ruler in Dubai. Not to mention the potential impact on Airbus if it all goes pear shaped and EK has to cancel orders.

These guys are all about saving face and the more the Canadian government thanks them for their support in the past and for understanding why this political move is necessary for the UAE, the more it winds them up as they may not be able to find a face saver down the road.

Refusing Canadian overflights isn't really that much of a heartbreaker. Don't forget how small the country is. Now, if all the Arab GCC states joined hands and refused, then we'd have a legitimate concern. Like that's going to happen. (Whatever happened to Gulf Air btw)

I love it. Can't wait to see what happens next!!

G U

[Gino Under]

I would'nt lose too much sleep over this NON issue.
Canada pulls out of Afghanistan in 2011 and the UAE will probably not even notice.

Remember the maturity level in that part of the world. It's about face saving and nothing more. After all, it's a pretty spoiled society. Kind of like a collection of spoiled children who have been used to excess and getting whatever they like. Over time, that makes for anything but a sophisticated intellect. So, I really wouldn't make too much of it. It's the only card left that they have to play. Don't forget who's the head of Emirates and what his position is in the UAE.

If the GCC were to close ranks and cut Air Canada off from over flights, that could result in a sizeable financial burden for AC. But the trick would be to get the GCC states to agree. Don't forget Gulf Air was a union of Gulf States who all abandonned Bahrain. They're unlikely to be very sympathetic to EK or EY let alone to each other.

I can see Sheikh al Thani of Qatar stepping in to assist Canada.

EK and EY don't get additional service to Canada. That's the name of that tune. Canada doesn't have access to Camp Mirage for another few months.
I'd say we're ahead by a century.

Yawn.

G U

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

A comment I found on the Toronto Star:

""""""""""Why are we held hostage by an incompetent airline that can't make it in the real competitive world. I AM REFERRING TO AIR CANADA! It should have been allowed to fail years ago. I will not use them for anything. I witness Jazz and AC bs on a daily basis and I under no circumstance will support them. I fly Westjet and Porter in Canada- better service, more comfortable and less expensive too.""""""""""""""

Now add this in :

. While they may be good for consumers, they will hurt Canadian carriers. As Canadian's, we should be trying to protect our industry. Hating Air Canada is not the issue. These guys will make life unpleasnant for any Canadian carrier at all and any cost. Their governments own them and tclaim they are wildly profitable regardless of market behaviour, global recessions, SARS, fuel prices, global drop in demand.

I'm a strong believer in open markets, open skies and allowing the market to decide who stays and who goes. I also support Canadian aviation and put its long term interests ahead of any other carrier or government. Go pound sand, I say.

Now excuse me while I stir the pot! Ultimately why ...just why is the Canadian Government so concerned if a few more routes are started between the Emirates and Canada? Why? It technically is a great thing for Canadians! More competition ... more relations ... etc. Do not lecture us about other airlines making life unpleasant for other Canadian carriers. Look at what Porter has had to go through for God sake (courtesy of air Canada + jazz). This would be a fabulous thing for the travelling public - BUT NOT WITH AIR CANADA! Now what the hell does the comment have to do with the article? Simple! Someone who is privy to such political freedoms should flood out here. Air Canada - the airline which demands everything and gives nothing- demands more and more and more rights into the US - among other places - yet when other carriers want to start up routes on their turf - bang!!!!! I would do the same thing as the UAE. There is really no solid reason why they cannot add a few flights a day into Canada-other than disrupting Air Canada’s domestic chain of connections. It is despicable that it would come so far as to getting rid of a Canadian support base- but I say let politics play out on this one. Air Canada loyalists -on guard!

As for the Government finally saying "NO" to something!!!! Kudos:)

[Widow]

Threads merged.

[tempo]

I don't think it's that simple letting the emirates have a few flights;
everyone will be affected...includung westjet.
As they a leaches and apparantly take people to other destinations via dubai etc.
A passenger travelling and not getting a seat, this is where they pick up the extra fare little here little there.
Who'se to say they will stop at a few extra flight?
anyhow like u say such a small country why do they need more flights? not for themselves to be parasite on our backs! and take our flights.
We should not let them in our airspace now..tit for tat..no?
As said by posters they try the same in europe as well; also Lufthansa isn't too happy either.
As the old joke goes how to make a million in the airline business ...you start with te million!
So to say Air Canada etc is not doing well...hello take a look down south as the airlines are merging due to too many out there and not enough people...that is why the parasites from dubai want to come up here; apparantly their deep oil money they support the squeeze play on us our oil money perhaps...when u dive a car using their oil to compete against us.
If u like westjet that fine but be realistic...
pardon typos as i don't take time to proof read...

[bizjets101]

As the threads are merged, a couple of comments.

As far as our role in Afghanistan, and why we are there, a good start is the Book; Bush at War by Bob Woodward, and Book; Against All Enemies by Richard Clarke (Bush U.S. Chief Counter-Terrorism Advisor).

Operation Enduring Freedom, though a UN Operation there was never any doubt who has been calling the shots from day one. I think Bush said it best, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists".

On a personal opinion, I support our troops 100 percent, and our mission in Afghanistan 0 percent. I would like to see Canada do way more to support our homecoming troops and especially any injured veteran.

I also have to give kudos to Prime Minister Chretien keeping us out of Iraq, but caved in on Afghanistan. Guess the pressure was too much? As citizens we will never know what Washington conveyed to our Government to get with the program, in the end we ended up in Afghanistan, I assure you we didn't go for Canadian interests. (My opinion).

[Brewguy]

They say "payback is a bitch".

I think Canada should deny over-flight privileges to the UAE with about as much notice as they gave our Minister of Defence and CDS on their way back from Afghanistan. Lets scramble a couple of Hornets to intercept and divert the next one that comes over the pole on it's way to LAX.

[Gino Under]

winds_in_flight_wtf

Competition? On what routes does Air Canada directly compete with EK on. I mean, Canada to UAE. Because I have no doubt, AC couldn't hold a candle to EK as far as cabin service is concerned. But, that's not what this is all about.
I have to tell you, if I were a consumer that supported AC and needed to fly YYZ-DXB, I couldn't. I'd have to go via Europe. If I had to get to Mumbai on AC I could via LHR/FRA/CDG, etc. or I could do it via DXB flying EK from YYZ. The argument for AC is obviously the onward traffic via DXB. They simply can't match the cost structure of EK so it's a done deal. They already have sufficient service from Canada to DXB and onward. Let's let the other players in Canada feed those flights out of YYZ and take our losses. But to allow more gateways? Sorry, I disagree.

I think if AC has a complaint, it's a valid complaint and as a tax paying corporation, they should at least let their politicians know how they feel about EK doing whatever it wants in Canada for nothing in return and make sure they're aware of the negative impact any decision to let EK do so would have. Don't you?

Free enterprise?? Do you believe EK is a free enterprise like AC? If you do, then I don't think you know how businesses work over there. Emirates Airline is a toy to a member of the ruling family of Dubai and that person will never see it fail, or not get what it wants. It will never have an unprofitable year. World presence and world domination of the airline industry is why it exists and it is fed by countless numbers of oil dollars and government support. Sound idiotic? It sure does, but that's how simple it actually is. If Maurice Flanagan is that much of a genius, why hasn't he been the toast of the airline industry and why isn't he running a more significant airline from a more significant country. Also, Dubai is a city, not a state or a country. Just because it's an Emirate (area of sand ruled by a tribal leader called an Emir) doesn't mean it's a country and just because the Emirates are made up of 7 emirates doesn't make it a unified country either. After all, Etihad is the Airline of the United Arab Emirates.
You must have been impressed when Geo. Bush Sr. sold Americans on the belief they were defending democracy and freedom when he initiated Operation Desert Shield. (as if Kuwait is a democracy where freedom is a way of life)

I agree that competition is good for all consumers. Like many reading this Forum, I survived Canadian de-Regulation and witnessed numerous Canadian airlines enter the game and then promptly go out of business from the whacky world of free enterprise and market forces along with the rise and fall of our economy. I'd certainly like to see some stability and welcome an era of sanity. To a certain degree and extent, I'd even say re-regulation wouldn't do us as much harm. But that's a debate for another day.

I support our troops. I do not support the government for having them there for as long as they have in the first place, and getting booted out of Camp Mirage only proves how much the UAE really doesn't support any war on terrorism. Saving face is more important for the shiny ship that Emirates represents and nothing more. That's the message I think world observers will take away from this silly little insignificant act.

Did I tell you your post sounded more like Air Canada bashing than Canada standing up for itself in a silly display of who showing whom is the boss??? Well, it does.

Gino

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

winds_in_flight_wtf

Did I tell you your post sounded more like Air Canada bashing than Canada standing up for itself in a silly display of who showing whom is the boss??? Well, it does.

Gino

Well the thing is Gino, I did not ask you for your opinion. I will not agree with you because it is not how i feel. (specifically you! because of your nice personal attack towards the end - which diffuses your long winded rant discussing your political agenda as well as a)supporting troops to b) all gung ho for open competition than contradicting yourself..... so on so on. This section of the forums is specifically for debate/misc - so excuse me while I type what I believe from personal experience. I am entitled to say what i want to say. Yes -the article has mentioned Air Canada - yes the Media has mentioned Air Canada - yes - the UAE has mentioned Air Canada .... why is this such a shock to you? You can say I am just a avg day Air Canada basher - but contrary - It is the opposite. I think they are a despicable managed airline which in the long run has cost Canadians more money. Secondly, I am a Canadian...... i sympathize with all who are currently affected by the current economic state - but to say that a few flights a week Calgary - Dubai is going to make or break the Canadian Market is horse crap -and you know it. I am very supportive of our Men and Women in uniform - and I prefer to get to the roots of this issue which in turn is now affecting them. Where in the world is the UAE sucking dry an entire nation’s aviation industry and or economy? I agree we should act on behalf of Canadians - but on the flipside - this could very well NOT be the best thing for Canada . Take it as you wish. I respect your arguement but rarely are things this black and white.

[bmc]

The carriers requesting additional frequencies and access to Canada are not for the benefit of the Canada-UAE market. It's to feed Abu Dhabi and Dubai hubs. The bulk of their traffic is 6th freedom traffic. It is not point to point traffic. The traffic numbers between Canada and these two places do not justify the lift they're proposing. You could probably accomodate that lift with an A320 daily service. However, through in the South Asian Sub Continent (India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka), the Levant (Syria, Jordan, Lebanon), East and South Africa, Thailand, and it starts getting interesting. There is adequate lift from Canada with all existing foreign flag carriers flying transatlantic, either over Europe or North Africa, to accomodate demand.

This bilateral relationship offers no balance of benefits to all carriers designated in the air service agreement. Now...I do not have first hand access to the ASA, but I am assuming it offers dual designation from both sides and provisions for frequencies and capacities to be agreed upon at a later date. I'm guessing that is where we are at today, with the UAE pushing form additional points in Canada and specified frequencies.

So...looking at the Canada-UAE market place, there is not much community of interest. I'm sure there are oil workers and petroleum traffic, some vacation travel. But, not enough for Canada to launch regular daily nonstops. Makes no sense. If you did, you would have to focus on beyond markets and interline onto0 other carriers. This isn't a problem, but to reach parity on the low levels the UAE carriers charge, both you and the interling airline are taking a hair cut on your yield.

The smoke and mirrors is saying UAE access is good for Canadians. I say BS. The Canada-UAE market size can't support it. It certainly can't support Emirates, Etihad and Air Canada all flying the same routes.

So, why would we want to pursue this? Because some people hate AC inflight service?

Come on folks.

[ramp_rat]

I wonder if they would still hire me after all of this!!!

[tempo]

WTF...icing on the cake today!!!!....our military can't fly 'U emirates' country(run by a dicator!)
and now we don't get a seat in the UN...? we didn't do enough...????
UN thinks like that? after all the Canadain lifes lost in Afghanistan!

[complexintentions]

but to say that a few flights a week Calgary - Dubai is going to make or break the Canadian Market is horse crap -and you know it

To say that Emirates would be satisfied with "a few flights a week" is to ignore history (or horse crap, if you prefer). Study their penetration into Europe and Australia if you want some clues as to how staggering their speed and breadth of growth has been. They aren't looking for incremental growth when they order 90, correction 120 A380's.

Emirates eyes 120 A380s, works with Boeing on 777
Tue, Oct 12 10:56 AM EDT
DUBAI, Oct 12 (Reuters) - Dubai carrier Emirates [EMIRA.UL], the Arab world's largest airline, aims to have 120 Airbus (EAD.PA) A380s when new airport space is available and is working with Boeing (BA.N) on the next generation of 777 jets.

Emirates, whose passengers are growing at 20 percent annually and expects to maintain this level for the next five years, will fulfill all its 90 orders so far for the A380 superjumbo, President Tim Clark told Reuters in an interview. "We would like some more but we are going to run short of space," he said. "120 was the baseline figure that the planners worked to get where we needed to be, but we couldn't order that amount because it was too many for here so 90 was a compromise."

The carrier will order more when it gets additional space at its home base in Dubai, he added. The target implies a future Emirates order for 30 of the world's largest airliner, worth $10 billion at list prices, at an unspecified date. If the airline went ahead with its growth plans it would have an A380 fleet worth over $40 billion.

Emirates, already by far the biggest customer for A380, announced a record $11 billion order for 32 superjumbos at the Berlin Air Show in June.
At July's Farnborough Air Show, Emirates also ordered 30 Boeing (BA.N) 777-300ER wide-body planes, a deal worth potentially more than $9 billion. [ID:nWEA0008]. Clark said the airline is collaborating with Boeing to find a solution for the manufacturer's wide-body 777 aircraft, but said he could not share more details.

"We are working with Boeing on the next generation of 777. We are still very interested in a replacement," he said. Boeing has said it is looking at the future of the aircraft which faces competition from the future Airbus A350-1000. (Reporting by Tamara Walid; Editing by Tim Hepher)

[North Shore]

Could someone please explain to me the meaning of the term '6th Freedom' please?

If I choose to go to country 'X' for my holidays, and they are not served by AC/WJ/Jazz, then I can use those airlines to fly to a hub that will serve country 'X' and fly from then on via XAir; or, (?exercising my 6th freedom rights?) I can fly via Emirates/Etihad to Dubai, and thence via XAir.

Is that correct?

[Gino Under]

winds

I'd like to respond this way,

quote: Well the thing is Gino, I did not ask you for your opinion. I will not agree with you because it is not how i feel. (specifically you! because of your nice personal attack towards the end - which diffuses your long winded rant discussing your political agenda as well as a)supporting troops to b) all gung ho for open competition than contradicting yourself..... so on so on.

Cool. I don't actually care either whether or not you asked for my opinion, agree with it, or could care less for it. As you so eloquently point out, it is my opinion that you are simply Air Canada bashing. That said, I agree with almost everything you're saying about Air Canada management but, domestically we, as pilots, are very much interested in competition and its impact on aviation here in Canada. After all, it means jobs to us who are interested in that sort of thing. If you don't, that's your opinion, but I think that's FITH. And again, that's only my opinion whether or not you asked for it.

quote: This section of the forums is specifically for debate/misc - so excuse me while I type what I believe from personal experience. I am entitled to say what i want to say.

Okay. Agreed. I respect your opinion and didn't say otherwise. So my pointing out a couple of things regarding "your opinion" isn't debate? Silly me. What was I thinking?

quote: Yes -the article has mentioned Air Canada - yes the Media has mentioned Air Canada - yes - the UAE has mentioned Air Canada .... why is this such a shock to you? You can say I am just a avg day Air Canada basher - but contrary - It is the opposite. I think they are a despicable managed airline which in the long run has cost Canadians more money. Secondly, I am a Canadian...... i sympathize with all who are currently affected by the current economic state - but to say that a few flights a week Calgary - Dubai is going to make or break the Canadian Market is horse crap -and you know it.

Last time I checked, Air Canada was the only flag carrier of any appreciable size recognized around the world as our national carrier. Makes you wonder why the UAE singled out AC and not WJ. Whether or not you and I recognize them as such, is immaterial in this pissing contest.

Please don't misunderstand me on this, my opinion is always open to change but until Air Canada bashing doesn't sound like Air Canada bashing I'd encourage you to keep the debate open.

Gino Under

[winds_in_flight_wtf]

winds

I'd like to respond this way,

quote: Well the thing is Gino, I did not ask you for your opinion. I will not agree with you because it is not how i feel. (specifically you! because of your nice personal attack towards the end - which diffuses your long winded rant discussing your political agenda as well as a)supporting troops to b) all gung ho for open competition than contradicting yourself..... so on so on.

Cool. I don't actually care either whether or not you asked for my opinion, agree with it, or could care less for it. As you so eloquently point out, it is my opinion that you are simply Air Canada bashing. That said, I agree with almost everything you're saying about Air Canada management but, domestically we, as pilots, are very much interested in competition and its impact on aviation here in Canada. After all, it means jobs to us who are interested in that sort of thing. If you don't, that's your opinion, but I think that's FITH. And again, that's only my opinion whether or not you asked for it.

quote: This section of the forums is specifically for debate/misc - so excuse me while I type what I believe from personal experience. I am entitled to say what i want to say.

Okay. Agreed. I respect your opinion and didn't say otherwise. So my pointing out a couple of things regarding "your opinion" isn't debate? Silly me. What was I thinking?

quote: Yes -the article has mentioned Air Canada - yes the Media has mentioned Air Canada - yes - the UAE has mentioned Air Canada .... why is this such a shock to you? You can say I am just a avg day Air Canada basher - but contrary - It is the opposite. I think they are a despicable managed airline which in the long run has cost Canadians more money. Secondly, I am a Canadian...... i sympathize with all who are currently affected by the current economic state - but to say that a few flights a week Calgary - Dubai is going to make or break the Canadian Market is horse crap -and you know it.

Last time I checked, Air Canada was the only flag carrier of any appreciable size recognized around the world as our national carrier. Makes you wonder why the UAE singled out AC and not WJ. Whether or not you and I recognize them as such, is immaterial in this pissing contest.

Please don't misunderstand me on this, my opinion is always open to change but until Air Canada bashing doesn't sound like Air Canada bashing I'd encourage you to keep the debate open.

Gino Under

Fantastic - so we are both on the same page - just speaking different languages? I believe we should be taken into account first - and excuse me if I do not believe the current decision made by the Government (mixed with Air Canada politics), to be completely "FOR THE PEOPLE" if you will.

but to say that a few flights a week Calgary - Dubai is going to make or break the Canadian Market is horse crap -and you know it

To say that Emirates would be satisfied with "a few flights a week" is to ignore history (or horse crap, if you prefer). Study their penetration into Europe and Australia if you want some clues as to how staggering their speed and breadth of growth has been. They aren't looking for incremental growth when they order 90, correction 120 A380's.

[/quote]

You must have been for the 2003 Invasion of Iraq. .......fear... fear..... FEAR! Let the strong market decide. The UAE is already in their own economic downturn. According to the article - they do not want 120 A380 slots into Canada.... and their proposals are quite less. If they did indeed .... attempt to "penetrate" us in a fashion which hurts our ..."economy".... as you so vigorously described, than I am sure the Canadian Government would step in and lube the process. This isolation of markets + stimulus crap is just going to make things worse for everybody in the long run.

[fish4life]

If they won't even let our diplomats land in the UAE then I say we deny all overflights to Emirates and see how long any that lasts.

On a different note I agree 100% with Canada's decision not to allow them to expand service into Canada because like the posters before had said there is not the demand for these flights Emirates operates into the direct region essentially what they are trying to do is undercut the other carriers using gov subsidies and dirt cheap fuel out of there hub in Dubai and the idea is that they will make a flight from toronto to london (not necessarily these 2 destinations) cheaper than a direct AC flight by going through there hub in Dubai and making the route Toronto - Dubai - London... this is the unfair competition that the Canadian government is trying to stop.

[bmc]

Could someone please explain to me the meaning of the term '6th Freedom' please?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedoms_of_the_air

KLM, Singapore, Emirates are classic examples of strong sixth freedom airlines. KLM, for example, offers daily nonstops from various Canadian cities to Amsterdam. Amsterdam Canada is 3rd and 4th freedom. 6th freedom would be Canada-India via AMS, or Canada-Kenya for example.

A 5th freedom sector would be HKG-BKK offered to a US carriers flying into HKG from LAX for example. It would enable to sell purely in the HKG-BKK market. Exercising 5th freedom rights is less popular today.

[2R]

They would not mess with us if we still had Bomark missiles(even though they where dual key and required the permission of the cousins to launch)Although the lack of support from this present regime in the White house for the safe movement of Canada's troops leaves me wondering whose side that chappie is taking.

[CYOX]

Regardless of what the press is saying, this was brought on by a Bench Clearing brawl during a hockey game between a UAE National Team and an Expat team, made up primarily of Canadians. A UAE National butt ended an expat in the face, which required re-constructive surgery, the benchs cleared and the UAE nationals were introduced to some good ole Canadian Hockey. You don't get a chance to beat on an Emerati very often without going to jail.