Insurance on student owned plane used for flight training.

[Shiny Side Up]

FWIW I have found that many freelance instructors are
highly experienced - often they are class 1 or 2 instructors,
often with thousands of hours of flight time, who choose
not to work for an FTU for $20/hr, oddly enough.

Then your experience has been different than mine. Firstly there are some freelance instructors like the ones you describe and they are professional, courteous and also up front as to what they were up to. One I know for the most part does multi work and is very experienced. Unfortunately a great majority of freelancers have been largely less than ethical in their conduct, and dubious in their abilities. Most of these are guys who have been fired from jobs at FTUs. Two of them I know took a large portion of some student's money and ran. Another was here doing some circuits and took out a bunch of runway lights and disappeared. Another was a class act who while applying for a job, had the nerve to try and poach students right after he handed in a resume. Yet another has made a variety of outright violations of the CARs - TC has a tough time tracking a lot of these individuals down. One last I had heard of him had left the country, another was several provinces away plying his trade.

So aside from any legal ramification to having a freelancer hanging around, a lot of the time its just simply bad business to have any dealings with - in my experience - a good majority of them. In the case of the runway lights, guess who took the flak for that screw up? There have been countless students out there whom I've encountered who've been burned by these kind of guys. The damage they do though is wide ranging, and hurts us all in the business of not just flight training but aviation entirely.

Some FTU's believe they actually own the entire airport,
and have some sort of concession from the government
to be the only source of flight training on the airport, which
is ludicrious.

Not so ludicrous if you think about it. If you owned a store, would you let someone else hawk his goods in your parking lot? In the case of a FTU, its not that hard (relatively speaking) to set up if you got a chunk of land and build your own runway. Why on earth would you let some competition move in there? No concession from the government, if you have the lease on the land, you can do what you please with it - just like some freelancer can't come teach groundschool in your basement without your permission. Many FTUs for example do lease the ramp areas and apron their school operates off of. Why should they let someone operate off of it that might adversly affect your business? Lets put it this way - say you owned a hangar - would you let someone access to it if they were going to impact your ability to operate your airplane out of it? Not without paying a chunk of cash I'd wager.

Follow the money, I am told. Note the $30/hr loss in
revenue for the FTU when a freelance instructor is paid
$40/hr directly by the student, instead of the student
paying $50/hr to the FTU, and the FTU paying the instructor
$20/hr.

In my opinion if a freelancer is really worth his salt he should be charging more, or at least equal to the FTU's rates. If he charges less, he's essentially saying he's not worth as much as the FTU's instructors are. What does this say about instructors in general? In the eyes of the paying public its one of the big things that's devalueing us as pilots. Hell, there's enough freelancers out there giving themselves away for free to scrounge up a few hours.

There's some good freelancers out there. As pointed out above, few or none of them are in the business of doing ab initio work.

[Strega]

In my opinion if a freelancer is really worth his salt he should be charging more, or at least equal to the FTU's rates. If he charges less, he's essentially saying he's not worth as much as the FTU's instructors are. What does this say about instructors in general? In the eyes of the paying public its one of the big things that's devalueing us as pilots. Hell, there's enough freelancers out there giving themselves away for free to scrounge up a few hours.

Lets just say joe weekend warrior pilot comes in with his own 172 and just wants some recurrent night training. If a FTU instructor is billed out at lets say $50/hr, how much money does the instructor actually get paid? In this case I dont think you can argue the FTU is simply making money on the back of the instructor.

In Canada, the government has brainwashed people into thinking the FTU is the only way to go. I would strongly dissagree, In fact, how many CFI's in of flight schools in Canada have never had a real job flying? I personally know of a couple. How can a pilot, that has never had a real commercial aviation job, train other commercial pilots? or for that matter, become the CFI of the school?

I was taught to fly by a freelancer, in a friends airplane, and received not only good value, but EXCELLENT training.

[Hedley]

So, the argument seems to be that:

1) almost all FTU's are ethical, and almost all freelancers
are unethical

2) FTU's own the entire airport, and freelancers can just f_ck right off

re #1 above ... I have seen plenty of unethical FTUs in my time.

Ever wonder why the Ontario Career College Act applies to FTU's?
Because unscrupulous FTU's took student's money - tens of thousands
of dollars of it, per student - and ran.

I would have trouble believing that any single freelance instructor
has ever been as unethical as any single FTU. So much for the
argument that you get more ethical treatment at an FTU

re: #2 above ... I'm really, really glad I don't fly at your airport.

This is all about the money. In addition to flight training, you
appear to be selling an awful lot of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

Follow the money, they say. It appears to explain what's going
on here, once you penetrate the smoke screen.

Keep paying those ATAC dues!

[Shiny Side Up]

Lets just say joe weekend warrior pilot comes in with his own 172 and just wants some recurrent night training. If a FTU instructor is billed out at lets say $50/hr, how much money does the instructor actually get paid? In this case I dont think you can argue the FTU is simply making money on the back of the instructor.

Firstly I always love the idea that FTUs simply profit from instructors and that they provide nothing. Realistically a decent freelancer should be charging more than your typical FTU due to the fact that they should be providing much more in terms of instruction out of their pocket to provide good training. Keeping track of student's records, for example, shouldn't be done for free. Do typical freelancers then add in extra charges in addition to their hourly rate? Did yours? Typically an instructor gets half of what the FTU charges them out as - which is typical for any business when labour is charged out. Do you think that the other half is just pure profit? Some element of it must be of course, or there would be no point having them work under you, but the image that every FTU is out to make a crooked buck out there simply isn't true.

In Canada, the government has brainwashed people into thinking the FTU is the only way to go. I would strongly dissagree, In fact, how many CFI's in of flight schools in Canada have never had a real job flying? I personally know of a couple. How can a pilot, that has never had a real commercial aviation job, train other commercial pilots? or for that matter, become the CFI of the school?

If the government has done this then its news to me. If anything, the more common thought out there is that flight training should be cheap. A day doesn't go by when someone doesn't complain about the price. Usually the complaint is accompanied by how little it used to cost. By the same train of thought they think that $99 is too much to fly to Saskatoon. People aren't seeking FTUs in my experience, they're seeking the cheapest possible route. It happens that there are enough FTUs advertising that fact as well. IT always stuns me though that people who often have their own airplane (and can afford it) often look for the cheapest possible way to train. Seems odd to spend $100,000 plus on a shiny new plane and then quibble about the peanuts by comparisson they have to spend to get their licence. Often the fuel they burn costs more than the instruction. There's some out there who have headsets that are worth more than they've paid their instructors for their licences.

I was taught to fly by a freelancer, in a friends airplane, and received not only good value, but EXCELLENT training.

Glad you got a good deal. There's a lot of students out there who haven't, from FTUs and freelancers alike. In the end buyer beware. My main point when I started this arguement, was IF you decide to hire a freelancer a good sign of whether he's good or bad is if he maintains a good working relationship with a decent FTU. They pretty much have to if you want to eventully get licenced.

[Shiny Side Up]

So, the argument seems to be that:

1) almost all FTU's are ethical, and almost all freelancers
are unethical

No, please re-read what I've had to say.

2) FTU's own the entire airport, and freelancers can just f_ck right off

re #1 above ... I have seen plenty of unethical FTUs in my time.

Once again please read. I let freelancers operate off of my ramp and sometimes use my classroom space - all a decent freelancer has to do is ask and be upfront and courteous. Its all about cooperation. I know that's tough to ask of some people.

And so have I. There are a lot of good ones too. The point of my post has been to the owner of the airplane in the OP of what to watch for if they decide to employ a freelancer - particularly since it seems like he's operating off the ramp of a FTU. He doesn't deserved to get screwed by a freelancer or the FTU - its his job to be careful about it though.

Ever wonder why the Ontario Career College Act applies to FTU's?
Because unscrupulous FTU's took student's money - tens of thousands
of dollars of it, per student - and ran.

I would have trouble believing that any single freelance instructor
has ever been as unethical as any single FTU. So much for the
argument that you get more ethical treatment at an FTU

Then we could probably swap some good stories about both. I never said that you were guaranteed ethical treatment from an FTU, only what they might do, and why they might do it.

re: #2 above ... I'm really, really glad I don't fly at your airport.

If once again being up front and informative about what you're up to if you choose to use the aerodrome is that terrible of a burden, then you're probably glad you don't either. Yes tell me about how your rights have been infringed here.

This is all about the money. In addition to flight training, you
appear to be selling an awful lot of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

Follow the money, they say. It appears to explain what's going
on here, once you penetrate the smoke screen.

If that's what you believe, that's what you believe. Lot of pot calling this kettle black here then because there's certainly been a fair bit of it spread on the other side of the arguement (which apparently has been FTUs will screw you over! Stick it to the man! its your God given right to use a freelancer!) If FUD is what I'm spreading you feel, then its certainly not my intent - though it probably appears that way with as long-winded as I can be.

[Bede]

Getting back on topic, Rengler, great idea. If the FTU is being picky, just get a freelancer.

I would think that a student would generally get better training from a freelancer, since many of us have far more experience than most FTU instructors. (Find a decent one with any kind of relevant experience).

In regards to liability, I think some of you have been paying too much attention to law suits which have been overblown by the media (million dollar MacDonald's coffee, etc.). Tort actions are quite difficult, and very few go to trial; most are settled out of court by the insurance company for a fraction of the claim because plaintiff counsel realizes they have a very steep hill to climb to prove liability.

[JAHinYYC]

(Bump)

I just finished reading the entire thread and have a specific question.

I have been approached to freelance a night rating for the owner of a homebuilt. The owner carries COPA Silverwings liability (no hull) for his aircraft.

The policy states that I am covered as to liability while providing him with instruction, however it specifically excludes coverage for me in terms of Bodily Harm (specifically defined) that I might cause to my student.

I am thinking training accident, me as PIC, where the student is injured. It seems like I have no coverage. Since I have hard assets at risk (house, savings, my own airplane) I am the deep pockets.

SO question, does anyone know of insurance that I can purchase to protect me from liability to my student?

[wrenches and radios]

To the point of the post--- read the fine print!! The FTU is PROBABLY coverd. Read it. Read it carefully.

[oldncold]

Cat its good to see ya back . !!!

re the post ot the same reason one has to apply to tc to be a ops mgr before applying for the private company for the actual job . lol

one poi can ruin ones whole day

[dave_091]

I will only work with people I like and who are interested in putting in the considerable effort to be a good pilot, not just meet the TC minimum standard

This comes down to motiviation.

We all know why 200hr commercial pilots instruct - they are
building time, and move into the right seat of a beat-up twin
as fast as humanly possible. That's just the way it works, so
there's no use getting cranked up about it.

But why do older pilots instruct part-time? They sure aren't
doing it for more PIC SEL time in their logbook! Is it for the
money? Nope, not that either.

So, why do older pilots instruct part-time? To give back
to aviation.

As an instructor, I'm pretty choosy about whom I instruct.
Students probably don't see this, but every hour that I spend
in a cramped cockpit with you is an hour of my life, gone.
I hope I have spent it well. There is lots of money around,
people, but only so many hours in your life to spend. Your
time is far more precious than any pile of paper currency.

Personally, I am only interested in instructing really promising,
motivated student, whom I know are going to stay in aviation
and contribute. So, it is worthwhile for me to invest my time
in them, because of the dividends for aviation resulting from
their efforts.

This probably doesn't make much sense to the younger people
here, who are convinced of their own immortality and think
that I'm at least borderline senile.

This is really hard to put into words, and almost always sounds
stupid when I try, but aviation is really something special. It
is bigger than any of us individually, and is truly worthwhile. To
try to understand this, go to OSH this summer. By airplane.
And walk around until your feet hurt and you're sunburned.

Then go have a beer at Friar Tucks.

I have to comment on this post. I think this is very well said! Great post.

Dave