Interested by Sky Regional Airlines, please consider

[teacher]

If you want a sharper pencil you might wanna look inwards a little. Jazz is far from the reason AC can't turn a profit. We're an easy target but AC wouldn't be renewing the CPA until 2020 if it wasn't in their best interest. Stop deflecting blame and focus on the real reasons why AC can't turn a profit. ACs books will not magically move into the black if mainline flies Q400s or Jazz doesn't do the flying for Thomas Cook.

Just came up with an awesome theory, care to hear it? AC sits back and lets ACPA piss off JALPA, again. AC offers Jazz more flying and perhaps *gasp* some more jet flying or worse, the EMB. JALPA after getting kicked in the teeth all these years by ACPA says "we would have backed you on this but you know what, ". You don't get what you want be being mean to people. Didn't you ever learn that? Work together or work against each other is the choice. Once again you have chosen the latter. Just remember when you make your bed you also have to sleep in it.

[Brick Head]

"One group. One list. One union.

This self imposed immobility we place on ourselves is being leveraged against us."

I'm not sure how these last two sentences fit in with the general tone of the comments that precede it. How does facilitating the creation of a second Tier 2 provider, that is non-unionized, aid in the creation of one group, one list and one union?

Mattedfred,

We are not going to win this battle playing the way we have been. We need the ability to be portable. Follow the work, if and when it moves, benefits intact. That was the point. We are not going to stop the road ACE started when Jazz was spun off. That is a loosing battle.

Are you inferring that ACPA has absolutely no influence over their current Scope Language? Why do you appear to presume that ALPA will be able to defend their CA when you infer that ACPA cannot?

Yes actually, that is what I am saying. An arbitrator will very likely just give this to AC in these negots if we tried to defend jazz's exclusivity. It has no value to the ACPA pilot. It only has a cost to AC. An arbitrator will not understand why we are defending a zero cost item to us, for the benefit of another companies employees and shareholders, when our own employer and pension is in jeopardy. It very well could be considered negotiating in bad faith because we have no right to negotiate for you. It might even be considered stupidity.

To the second part of your question. What have you done to protect yourself? This has been an issue rolling your way for about 5 years now. You have had 5 years to do something. Your union had to have their head up there A$$ not to see this coming. Since I know they are very intelligent? They obviously chose to do nothing. Did you expend any bargaining capital on the issue last summer? Calin was in the room at one point. Did you propose to him a trade off over portability? Did you at any point negotiate with Jazz telling them, we need to get what we charge AC more in line with the competition? That not doing so puts your collective future at risk?

Did you use, or even attempt to use, any negotiating capital to help yourself? Yet you blame me for not using my bargaining capital to help you?

Hello. Defend yourself. Take some responsibility. Protect your CA from foreseeable adverse forces heading your way. Why do you think we expend so much energy on scope?

Are you inferring that the viability of AC is in jeopardy without the immediate reduction in Tier 2 CPA costs?

No I am saying AC isn't viable at all. We finally have a CEO interested in viability. All costs need to be, and are being reviewed. Including aspects of our collective agreement that may be traded for the mutual benefit of both parties. Jazz has made itself a target by not staying competitive. I am not talking about the pilots here. JAZZ the company has priced itself out of the market. They are the only ones that can fix it. They won't do it without a hammer.

Do you feel that 5 Q400 operating for an indeterminate amount of time will provide a reduction in CPA costs that will be sufficient to ensure the continued viability of AC?

The deal is just like the one with Jazz. 5 years with extensions. If they are not on the island in a year they will be deployed elsewhere. They are going no where. No 5 aircraft will not change AC's viability. But 100 will. It has to start somewhere.

Jazz the company needs to decide if they want to play ball in the interest of their own long term future in the CPA market. Or think short term, and take as much as they can, while they can.

[Brick Head]

If you want a sharper pencil you might wanna look inwards a little. Jazz is far from the reason AC can't turn a profit. We're an easy target but AC wouldn't be renewing the CPA until 2020 if it wasn't in their best interest.

What do you think has been going on around here for the past year and a half? Everyone and everything is a target. You guys seem to think you are being individually targeted. Hello. Everyone. My pension included. Your company consumes about 10% of AC's gross revenue. Of course it will be looked at.

This is a very low margin industry. A 1 or 2 % swing in costs can make the difference between sink or swim.

[mattedfred]

Respectfully Brickhead,

Thanks for responding to some of my questions.

I would really appreciate it if you could respond to the other 7 questions that I asked you.

Thanks

[Brick Head]

Are you inferring that the viability of AC is in jeopardy without the immediate reduction in Tier 2 CPA costs?

It does not necessarily have to be immediate because our business is cyclical. Does it have to happen? Yes.

Do you realize that AC just recently renegotiated and renewed the Tier 2 CPA which included an extension and a reduction to the margins when block hours are increased above a certain amount?

Yes. Do you realize that although AC's total payments went down through lower block hours. The cost per ASM went up? Incentives.

Are you inferring that ACPA finds the current WAWCON of the US Regional pilot to be acceptable and that Canadian Regional pilots are overpaid in comparison?

Absolutely No. This has been one issue debated to death over on this side. No race to the bottom. We need to make sure it doesn't happen. Judging by the initial wage at Sky and what those at tier 3 already make? Many believe it isn't an issue.

Do you feel that 5 Q400 operating for an indeterminate amount of time will provide a reduction in CPA costs that will be sufficient to ensure the continued viability of AC?

No. It is the start. It is not an indeterminate amount of time.

My business sense tells me that it would be more economical for AC to offload all of their domestic flying to Tier 2. Would you agree that this would make the most sense from a purely economical perspective?

Yes. That is why we expend bargaining capital on Scope. Why did Jazz not expend any bargaining capital on job security?

AC recently took the opportunity to negotiate new rates for the Jazz CPA. Why do you feel that Jazz will offer to reduce their current CPA rate due to the entrance of a new Tier 2 provider?

They may not. I suspect that once Sky and others are up and running Jazz's block hours will drop to min. As that begins to happen we will see.

Are you inferring that ACPA has consciously decided not to intervene in the creation of a second Tier 2 provider by agreeing to renegotiate their current Scope Language?

No. There was a decision made, and voted on, not protect Jazz exclusivity. What I was saying was even if we had resisted and tried to stop the change we would likely have been unsuccessful through the arbitration process.


Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some examples of pilot groups that were not forced to accept concessions when their employer was forced to decrease their revenue?

The Jazz CPA is not the norm. There is plenty of room to give. Unless of course you believe Jazz's CASM really is so high it needs 26c/ASM to survive.

Larger aircraft that fly faster. A fleet of Q400's would work. The margin can be cut to 5% rather than 12%. The dividend. The incentives.

[rudder]

B/H - AC is so displeased with the cost of the Jazz service that it has added another 5% of Jazz capacity for 2011 as measured by block hours That will far exceed the hours performed by SkyPac Air. The RFP for YTZ was an appeasement for those that want AC to demonstrate that it is trying to mitigate the single Tier 2 service provider risk. Given that the commercial agreement can be terminated on notice, it certainly would appear to be a lower risk undertaking than requiring Jazz to ramp up. The AC YTZ presence has the potential to be shortlived.

[Dark Helmet]

To the second part of your question. What have you done to protect yourself? This has been an issue rolling your way for about 5 years now. You have had 5 years to do something. Your union had to have their head up there A$$ not to see this coming. Since I know they are very intelligent? They obviously chose to do nothing

Brickhead,

I think trying to diversify the Jazz revenue was one on the things the MEC did. For example the Thomas Cook Contract which ACPA has filed a grievance.

Larger aircraft that fly faster. A fleet of Q400's would work. The margin can be cut to 5% rather than 12%. The dividend. The incentives.[/i

So are suggesting that Jazz replaces the RJ with Q400s? I think that is what we are trying to do. However, ACPA has filed a grievance against that too.

Lets look at this from another angle, The operating costs at Jazz did not change during the spin off by ACE. The CPA agreement began in 2006. Jazz has been operating the DH8s and the CRJs under the same collective agreement since 2003.

The excess money from the CPA went out in the form of bonuses for the execs at Jazz, ACE, and also AC. Still doing to this day.

As far as protecting our jobs, How are we supposed to do that? The CPA forbids Jazz from doing any flying that competes with AC domestically. Any attemps to diversify is received by threats and grievances from AC and ACPA.

Any cuts to the Jazz revenue will no doubt come from the labour groups. we made some gains in our new CA but not before the Federal Governemnt cut us off at the knees.

I do agree with you that someone at Jazz has their heads up there a$$. Not JALPA but our overpaid, underworked Jazz management.

Going forward I can see 2 scenarios. 1. Both companies and groups sit down and come out to an agreement that benefits both groups.

2. Continue with this cold war that will end up seeing both companies as competitors rather than partners.

[Brick Head]

B/H - AC is so displeased with the cost of the Jazz service that it has added another 5% of Jazz capacity for 2011 as measured by block hours That will far exceed the hours performed by SkyPac Air.

Where would AC get the hours they need in 2011 if not from Jazz? At the moment there is no one else. At the moment there is no agreement to even give tier two flying to anyone but Jazz. All AC has is an agreement to ramp up at the moment.

The RFP for YTZ was an appeasement for those that want AC to demonstrate that it is trying to mitigate the single Tier 2 service provider risk. Given that the commercial agreement can be terminated on notice, it certainly would appear to be a lower risk undertaking than requiring Jazz to ramp up. The AC YTZ presence has the potential to be shortlived.

Come on Rudder your a smart guy. Sky has 5 years. They are going no where unless of course AC decides to pay Peyson to do nothing. There seems to be confusion over termination of the YTP operation and the commercial agreement. Or at least that is the impression I am getting.

[rudder]

http://www.financialpost.com/news/Diver ... story.html

[mattedfred]

Respectfully Brickhead,

"We need the ability to be portable. Follow the work, if and when it moves, benefits intact."

How does loosening up your own scope language allow you to follow the work, benefits intact? ACPA members will not be flying for Sky Regional. Sky Regional pilots will not have the same WAWCON as an ACPA member.

"An arbitrator will very likely just give this to AC in these negots if we tried to defend jazz's exclusivity. It has no value to the ACPA pilot. It only has a cost to AC. An arbitrator will not understand why we are defending a zero cost item to us, for the benefit of another companies employees and shareholders, when our own employer and pension is in jeopardy. It very well could be considered negotiating in bad faith because we have no right to negotiate for you. It might even be considered stupidity."

Perhaps you fail to consider the future ramifications of your actions. Perhaps you fail to recognize those times that ALPA and ACPA pilots were able to work together to protect each others work for the benefit of each group and the industry. Do you feel that pilot groups for companies such as Sky Regional and the next Tier 2 CPA provider will afford you the same opportunity?

"To the second part of your question. What have you done to protect yourself? This has been an issue rolling your way for about 5 years now. You have had 5 years to do something. Your union had to have their head up there A$$ not to see this coming. Since I know they are very intelligent? They obviously chose to do nothing. Did you expend any bargaining capital on the issue last summer? Calin was in the room at one point. Did you propose to him a trade off over portability? Did you at any point negotiate with Jazz telling them, we need to get what we charge AC more in line with the competition? That not doing so puts your collective future at risk?"

Our MEC actively facilitated the diversification of our revenue base. The TC contract that ACPA is currently grieving is just one way for us to protect ourselves. Why do you feel it necessary to actively facilitate the creation of a second Tier 2 CPA provider in order to help AC force JALP to reduce their costs while grieving the TC contract which would allow JALP to diversify their revenue base and subsequently reduce the CPA margin?

"Jazz has made itself a target by not staying competitive."

Compared to whom? Again, you must be referring to the US Regionals yet you admit that you do not feel that the US Regional pilot's WAWCON is acceptable.

Jazz Senior Executives will continue to receive the highest level of compensation that they have ever received. JAZ.UN unit holders will continue to receive some of the highest levels of distributions in its sector. Any savings will come mainly from a continuous decline in WAWCON for the Canadian Regional pilot. ACPA is actively participating in the creation of a US style Regional market in Canada which will erode the WAWCON of every Regional pilot. CR has convinced you that this is the only way back to viability.

Perhaps you should ask CR why he chose to settle the recent CPA negotiations rather than appear before an arbitrator?
Perhaps you should ask CR why he has chosen to increase the level of flying done by Jazz in 2011?
Perhaps you should ask CR why he isn't taking advantage of the decreased margin in the CPA above a specific number of block hours?
Perhaps you should ask CR why he was unable to negotiate a less expensive CPA with Jazz and why he can't reduce the cost of the Jazz CPA without the direct intervention of the ACPA membership?
Perhaps these questions should have been asked prior to agreeing to work with AC to create a US style Regional market in Canada for the first time in history?

[Brick Head]

http://www.financialpost.com/news/Diver ... story.html

I must have missed something. Your point? If it was meant to be the increase in block hours this year. The last I checked Jazz still has exclusivity.

[Brick Head]

Mattedfred,

I am not enjoying this. Nor am I a decision maker in any of this. I have been preaching this is where this is going for a few years now. I have two choices at this point. Shut up give up. Or tell you what is up so your head is not in the sand. I will not however blow smoke up your A$$.
Your not going to like the answers.

Perhaps you should ask CR why he chose to settle the recent CPA negotiations rather than appear before an arbitrator?

Because the CPA is iron clad. He would get nowhere through arbitration. Brewer did that route a year earlier and costs jumped dramatically.

Perhaps you should ask CR why he has chosen to increase the level of flying done by Jazz in 2011?

No one else. He needs the lift. Jazz has exclusivity.

Perhaps you should ask CR why he isn't taking advantage of the decreased margin in the CPA above a specific number of block hours?

Cheaper to drop Jazz to min block hour guarantee. Have everything else done elsewhere.

Perhaps you should ask CR why he was unable to negotiate a less expensive CPA with Jazz and why he can't reduce the cost of the Jazz CPA without the direct intervention of the ACPA membership?

Why would Randall negotiate? His responsibility is not to AC but rather his shareholders. He's not going to take from his shareholders and give to AC. It won't happen beyond protecting his cash cow from insolvency. The CPA is iron clad and requires min block hours. Above and beyond those block hours, AC can not go elsewhere due Jazz exclusivity within the ACPA CA. For the moment.

Perhaps these questions should have been asked prior to agreeing to work with AC to create a US style Regional market in Canada for the first time in history?

What choice do we have? Not having a viable alternative in place come next CPA negots will allow Jazz the corp to demand what it wants, and for as long as it wants. We have no choice but to open this up. None. Randall will not budge until forced. He will put a gun to AC's head next negots if we leave it in his hand.

FWIW I would do the same as Randall. His responsibility is to his shareholders and to give them as much as he can.

It is the fundamental reason why exclusivity must be stopped in exchange for a competitive CPA regime now that Jazz is a separate company with competing interests.

This did not start last month. It started 5 years ago by Milton. Those actions made this inevitable. We are not going to stop it now. If we had banded together then? We could have. Now? Not a chance. All we are left with now is to manage it.

I agree though, what we do not want is to create the WAWCON from south of the boarder. Taking steps to ensure that does not happen would be preferable IMO. But again I am not a decision maker in this. It appears to me most of the decision makers believe our intervention is not required on the issue. They point out that competitive CPA bidding has been taking place at the Teir 3 level for years.

We won't know what steps, if any, are taken on this issue, until we get a look at the results of negots.

[mattedfred]

Respectfully Brickhead,

Are you inferring that ACPA finds the current WAWCON of the US Regional pilot to be acceptable and that Canadian Regional pilots are overpaid in comparison?

"Absolutely No. This has been one issue debated to death over on this side. No race to the bottom. We need to make sure it doesn't happen. Judging by the initial wage at Sky and what those at tier 3 already make?"

How do you intend to make sure it doesn't happen?
Surely you would agree that salaries and/or hourly wages are just one component of WAWCON?
Why the comparison to Tier 3 when we are discussing Tier 2 WAWCON?

Do you feel that 5 Q400 operating for an indeterminate amount of time will provide a reduction in CPA costs that will be sufficient to ensure the continued viability of AC?

"No. It is the start. It is not an indeterminate amount of time."

So what was the rush to get this done ASAP?
Perhaps it is because AC would lose their slots at YTZ if this didn't get off the ground?

My business sense tells me that it would be more economical for AC to offload all of their domestic flying to Tier 2. Would you agree that this would make the most sense from a purely economical perspective?

"Yes. That is why we expend bargaining capital on Scope. Why did Jazz not expend any bargaining capital on job security?"

Perhaps you are being just a little myopic if you feel that loosening up your own scope language in this way will even provide some benefit to ACPA members in the long term. Again, the TC contract is just the start of ALPA's attempts to provide it's members with job security. Perhaps ACPA would be willing to convince AC to offer to remove the non-compete clause in the Jazz CPA since you appear to be interested in facilitating increased competition in the Tier 2 level?

Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some examples of pilot groups that were not forced to accept concessions when their employer was forced to decrease their revenue?

Respectfully, you failed to answer this question directly.

[teacher]

Would ACPA prefer that Jazz as a seperate company went head to head with AC? No rules no limits pure competition? That's what will happen if pushed to near bankruptcy or a canceled CPA. Open season on aircraft, no scope, 100 seat dash 8s doing rapidair type flights etc...

[Brick Head]

mattedfred,

You sure ask a lot of questions. You can drop the condescending respectfully please. I am not a decision maker here.

I'm starting fee like I'm on trial.

How do you intend to make sure it doesn't happen?

Honest? I don't think anything will be done. I think most of the decision makers believe the recent Sky wages proves that nothing needs to be done.

Surely you would agree that salaries and/or hourly wages are just one component of WAWCON?

Yes. Their a startup. give them some time.

Why the comparison to Tier 3 when we are discussing Tier 2 WAWCON?

Tier 3 has been competitive tender since the mid nineties. look at there wages. It reinforces the sentiment that nothing needs to be done.

So what was the rush to get this done ASAP?
Perhaps it is because AC would lose their slots at YTZ if this didn't get off the ground?

Yes that is my understanding.

Perhaps you are being just a little myopic if you feel that loosening up your own scope language in this way will even provide some benefit to ACPA members in the long term. Again, the TC contract is just the start of ALPA's attempts to provide it's members with job security. Perhaps ACPA would be willing to convince AC to offer to remove the non-compete clause in the Jazz CPA since you appear to be interested in facilitating increased competition in the Tier 2 level?

There is no non compete clause in the CPA. You can work for whoever you like. The only thing in there is a one for one reduction in aircraft at AC's discretion if you do so. That is Jazz's job to sort out. Not mine or yours. Notice that Randall was not interested in trading that clause for lower CPA rates. And yes Calin will use it as a stick to get Jazz back to the table.

Perhaps you wouldn't mind providing some examples of pilot groups that were not forced to accept concessions when their employer was forced to decrease their revenue?

Respectfully, you failed to answer this question directly.

Yes I did. And I am about to do it again. Why because this situation is not normal. It will your job to protect your WAWCON as Jazz is forced to sharpen its pencil. Assuming of course they actually do. I have complete faith that JALPA will not give an inch while excesses are flowing to shareholders. Am I wrong?

[Disco Stu]

You Jazz guys who think that AC would or could just transfer 60 airplanes to you at the drop of a hat are delusional.

Your opportunity to fly the EMJs passed years ago.

Think about the logistics of moving 60 airplanes, crews, mechanics, spares, manuals, etc overnight.

You are dreaming, and grasping at straws.

IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. No matter what your pissed off JALPA union guys have to say.

I'm at the mainline, and I think our grievance regarding the 757 is stupid. That being said, you guys should lose C2 passes. No way should a Jazz pilot commuting to Toronto to operate a 757 for TC be boarded ahead of ANY mainline employee. Dump your priority down to C4 and I'll be happy.

The Dash-8 grievance is also the wrong way to move as far as I am concerned. We should be focusing on giving Jazz/Sky Regional the Q400s, but for every Q400 Jazz operates, one 705 should be parked with an E190 bought for the mainline instead.

IMO of course.....

[teacher]

Right, buy airplanes that mainline can't make money with. That's the way to get AC in the red.

[Brick Head]

Would ACPA prefer that Jazz as a seperate company went head to head with AC? No rules no limits pure competition? That's what will happen if pushed to near bankruptcy or a canceled CPA. Open season on aircraft, no scope, 100 seat dash 8s doing rapidair type flights etc...

Teacher,

You can do that now. There is no non compete language in the CPA. If there was you wouldn't be doing the TC work. The only thing in the CPA is the ability for AC to drop aircraft on a one for one basis if Jazz's enters a feeder arrangement with another carrier. That is the only stipulation. Jazz can order a fleet of 777's tomorrow if they want. They can operate them when and where they want. Nothing stopping you. Hasn't been for 5 years.

Mattedfred

You leave irrelevant language in your CA that is being ignored and not followed? That results in estoppel down the road. If people don't know what that means.

If you do not enforce your contractual rights? You forfeit them.

The 757 and the Q400 grievance are house cleaning issues. What exactly is our scope on props right now? Is it 76 or 80 seats? I don't know the answer. If we do nothing, and someone decides they think we have forfeited our rights to say a 76 seat restriction? They may try, correction they will drive a 100 seat -8 through our scope. The 757 is the same. Our CA says you can't do it. We all know it is outdated language but we don't have a choice. We try to enforce it, or forfeit it. We all know in the end the language will just be changed to reflect today's realities. IE you can't do that for AC.

No one expects to fly the Q400 at mainline. No one expects to stop the 757.

Way too much attention going to those grievances.

[ggofp]

brickhead is spot on! Now lets calm down and play nice before someone loses an eye!!!!!

[flyinhigh]

Brickhead/matfred.

Great job guys making this a awesome topic, I wish all topics where put this way, no name flagging etc. Just some good bantering.

Btw- WTF is the wawcon or whatever it is..

[yycflyguy]

Wages and Work Conditions.

[mbav8r]

Heard a rumor that the hold up for Sky's AOC is due to the fact, the bankrupt company that the Qs came from is withholding the log books for whatever reason, so Transport won't go forward until they see the books. Anyone else hear this?

[whiteguy]

Heard a rumor that the hold up for Sky's AOC is due to the fact, the bankrupt company that the Qs came from is withholding the log books for whatever reason, so Transport won't go forward until they see the books. Anyone else hear this?

They came from Lynx Aviation and flew for Frontier. Lynx was shutdown they weren't bankrupt. Sounds more like a rumor.

[ng78]

It always takes time for the OC of a startup to come through, and Sky Regional will be no exception. Lots of rumours floating around about the OC being late or not happening at all, but we won't know until a few weeks from now when it is due. These things always go down to the wire so let's be patient.

[one8tee]

The thing everybody is forgetting is we need to seperate this issue- its perspective dependant. From a business perspective this makes 100% sense. AC and for that matter Jazz execs don't care about pilot wages.. they simply want to move x number of pax, at y price so that the company makes money and they get their bonuses.

As pilots we KNOW this is horrible for our future wages, working conditions etc. AC pilots seemed to think that allowing a second tier 2 provider into the rink would be benificial to them as a group, thinking that if AC can save money there they will be willing to part with more to the mainline pilot group come final negotiations time.. which is quite naive to say the least.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a master plan by AC/ Jazz execs to see the EMB's transferred to Jazz in 5 years, all the Dash flying contracted out to another company (or companies) in 5 years..

It's a slippery slope that ACPA just opened the door to...