Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

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Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by sky's the limit »

Perhaps someone should direct the general public to Avcanada, seems we're all jumping up and down shouting about the issues in the industry...

stl

PS I'm flying to NF tomorrow from YVR on AC, please get some rest boys and girls, and can you make sure there are no bedbugs on the flight? Oh, and enough gas to get there would be a bonus. ;-)




http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/10/2 ... tml?hpt=C2

(CNN) -- You hear their voices over the airplane speakers and you sometimes catch a glimpse of them as they inspect a plane before departure, but for the most part airline pilots remain a mystery.
Regal in their uniforms, locked in the cockpit, you know your life is in their hands -- but what are their lives really like these days?
Not so glamorous and often grueling, it turns out. Reader's Digest asked 17 pilots from major airlines and regional carriers to divulge some of the realities of their jobs, and many of the comments are chilling.
"The truth is, we're exhausted. Our work rules allow us to be on duty 16 hours without a break. That's many more hours than a truck driver. And unlike a truck driver, who can pull over at the next rest stop, we can't pull over at the next cloud," a captain at a major airline told the magazine.
Another pilot said bad accommodations also make it hard to get enough sleep.
"When you get on that airplane at 7 a.m., you want your pilot to be rested and ready. But the hotels they put us in now are so bad that there are many nights when I toss and turn. They're in bad neighborhoods, they're loud, they've got bedbugs, and there have been stabbings in the parking lot," said Jack Stephan, a US Airways captain.
Reader's Digest: 50 secrets your pilot won't tell you

Air Travel
Pilots also spoke out about some of the cost-cutting measures airlines have implemented in recent years. One of the comments that most surprised Peggy Northrop, editor-in-chief of Reader's Digest, dealt with fuel.
"I'm constantly under pressure to carry less fuel than I'm comfortable with. Airlines are always looking at the bottom line, and you burn fuel carrying fuel. Sometimes if you carry just enough fuel and you hit thunderstorms or delays, then suddenly you're running out of gas and you have to go to an alternate airport," a captain at a major airline told Reader's Digest.
Pilots are really playing that margin very, very close, Northrop told CNN, a revelation that may make lots of fliers queasy.
And if you're afraid of those bumps that shake your coffee cup during a flight, take note that pilots avoid turbulence because it's annoying rather than dangerous. But pay attention to the signals on board.
"It's one thing if the pilot puts the seat belt sign on for the passengers. But if he tells the flight attendants to sit down, you'd better listen. That means there's some serious turbulence ahead," said John Greaves an airline accident lawyer and former airline captain, according to Reader's Digest.
There are also some secrets pilots want you to know, like the best time to give them a compliment.
"Most of the time, how you land is a good indicator of a pilot's skill. So if you want to say something nice to a pilot as you're getting off the plane, say 'Nice landing.' We do appreciate that," Joe D'Eon, a pilot at a major airline, told the magazine.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by niss »

sky's the limit wrote:So if you want to say something nice to a pilot as you're getting off the plane, say 'Nice landing.' We do appreciate that," Joe D'Eon, a pilot at a major airline, told the magazine.
Are you supposed to say Domo Arrigato Mr. Roboto to the FD as well?
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by Beechball »

Disagree with the landing comment. Some of the most skilled guys I've been paired with occasionally have slammed one down. Also, the weakest guys out there occasionally pull-off one of those "Did we actually land yet" touchdowns. All depends on the circumstances of the day.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by Hawkerflyer »

No wonder these guys slam back the sauce at the airport bar before a flight! :lol:
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by oldtimer »

YUP Life is a bitch and then you die.
I never worked for a major, or a minor, mostly 703 and 704 charter and sched freight but it never ceases to amaze me how little the bean counters and upper management fail to learn from their mistakes. Flying the scheds in Northern Manitoba in the 60's, all schedules were published to reflect flight times in good weather with a 20 min turn around. Now! Throw in some weather or traffic and everyone screams about being late. Flying freight, unless mandated by TC, pilots are expected to stay in some of the dumpiest places ever. Places my dog would not go to take a dump. Flying a bag run and there was absolutely no time allowed what so ever to de-ice the airplane. Yet we as pilots put up with it every day.
Now for the bright side! There are some operators who do learn, who do operate safely, who may sound gruff and mean but who do care for their pilots.
If the weather is duff and you need extra fuel, dump some of the load, that's just the way it is. Management will back you up. Many years ago, a wise old pilot told me that the greatest hazard to a pilot's career would come from lawyers and accountants and now that I am retired after 51 years, I believe he was ever so correct.
A profitable airline is a safe airline. That is the problem in it's simplest form in the USA. Too many airplanes and too many airlines chasing too few passengers. On the brighter side, I worked for a construction and trucking company and they face the same challenges so we are not alone. Everyone is willing to work cheap and hope for the best.It is called "wearing out your iron".
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by SunWuKong »

sky's the limit wrote:I have learned to use the word 'impossible' with the greatest caution
W von Braun
:shock:


I have read this forum for a while, have appreciated the sky's the limit posts, but haven't seen this Wernher Von Braun quote until now...
This sentence coming from him makes so much sense: one day in charge of the concentration camp "Dora" (where thousands of his jewish and other prisoners-workers died), another day supposed to be judged at the Nuremberg court because he was a Nazi SS officer, and the day after in charge of NASA.
Yes true, everything is possible when we can build rockets. Really everything even the ugliest.

I know this information have been kept secret for a very long time in the US, but it is not secret anymore (relativised at the most).
Ok nothing against sky's the limit here, just speaking about the quote (citation-signature).
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by Meatservo »

...and with that, I think we've exhausted all that this thread can do for us.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by teacher »

“You may go to an airline website and buy a ticket, pull up to its desk at the curb, and get onto an airplane that has a similar name painted on it, but half the time, you’re really on a regional airline. The regionals aren’t held to the same safety standards as the majors: Their pilots aren’t required to have as much training and experience, and the public doesn’t know that.” -Captain at a major airline
Seriously? Last time I checked our training and standards were identical. I'd hazard a guess that I do more approaches and landings in a week than a "heavy" guy does in a month.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by fish4life »

I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that in the US FO's don't need type rating at regionals and don't do the same 6 month renewals that we do here. standards are less stringent i believe
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by Panama Jack »

. . . and I do enjoy movies about Gladiators.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by The Old Fogducker »

....ever seen a grown man naked?

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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by niss »

Ever been to a Turkish prison?
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by BTD »

fish4life wrote:I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure that in the US FO's don't need type rating at regionals and don't do the same 6 month renewals that we do here. standards are less stringent i believe
I'm pretty sure that in the US only the PIC requires a type rating in the aircraft regardless of size. I could be wrong but in the numerous accident reports I have read, many of the major ones, the F/O doesn't have a type rating.

I can't copy out of adobe. But from the Personnel Information section of a few reports.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R85-01.pdf

US AIR Flight 183
Appendix B: Page 50.

http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R98-01.pdf

Delta Airlines Flight 1288
Page 8 - 1.5.2


In almost every accident report I've ever read, the F/O either doesn't have the type rating for the aircraft or they fail to mention it because it is irrelevant. Yet in the findings it always says:

1. The flight crew was properly certified and trained for the flight.

Maybe I'm wrong.

BTD
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by The Old Fogducker »

(Brydges) He'll never make it in this soup now ..... not one chance in a million.

(Stack) ....I know, I know .... but its his ship now, he's in command ... he's in charge....the boss, the head man, top dog, the big cheese, the head honcho....


Or here's another great for all deadheading pilots to contemplate ...

"I think you ought to know what are chances are: the life of everyone on board depends upon just one thing -- finding someone back there who not only can fly this plane, but didn't have fish for dinner."

Some of you may not know "Airplane" is based upon a Canadian pilot in the 1957 black & white movie called "Zero Hour." In turn that picture is based on a short story called "Flight Into Danger" which details the events on a flight from Winnipeg to Vancouver on "Maple Leaf Air Charter flight 714."

The short story was on the school cirriculum in Ontario during the 60's. The short story was expanded into a made for TV movie script written by Arthur Hailey, and produced in Canada, aired by the CBC.

Here's a segment of the CBC production ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRjEuOuTdUE

Here's a link to "Zero Hour" ...

http://www.badmovieplanet.com/3btheater/z/zerohour.html

The Old (movie critic) Fogducker
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by iflyforpie »

Some of you may not know "Airplane" is based upon a Canadian pilot in the 1957 black & white movie called "Zero Hour." In turn that picture is based on a short story called "Flight Into Danger" which details the events on a flight from Winnipeg to Vancouver on "Maple Leaf Air Charter flight 714."
What happens when you buy the script to a 'serious' movie, and cast previously 'serious' actors to play the parts? Hilarity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BjU-e01zQ4
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by SAR_YQQ »

niss wrote:Are you supposed to say Domo Arrigato Mr. Roboto to the FD as well?
You should thank the programming skills of the FMS and the ability of the plank driver to enter data.

Ever flown on a medium/heavy that was hand flown? Not very pretty on the long routes.

I get lots of ribbing where I work from the rotor-heads about our syllabus-induced use of the FD/AP - but in all reality, hand flying is pretty straight forward - coupling up the AP to a nav source and not violating yourself in the process is what takes skill.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by coreydotcom »

teacher wrote:
“You may go to an airline website and buy a ticket, pull up to its desk at the curb, and get onto an airplane that has a similar name painted on it, but half the time, you’re really on a regional airline. The regionals aren’t held to the same safety standards as the majors: Their pilots aren’t required to have as much training and experience, and the public doesn’t know that.” -Captain at a major airline
Seriously? Last time I checked our training and standards were identical. I'd hazard a guess that I do more approaches and landings in a week than a "heavy" guy does in a month.
Teacher, I have an honest question for you from a guy who has never flown a plane (not meant to be an attack on your skill or anything like that):

Wouldn't you agree that in most (i say most...) cases the guys at the majors have more experience than the guys at the regionals... didn't he/she have to shoot all the approaches per week for X amount of years (just like you are doing now) to get to where he/she is now? I can understand that some guys in the lower echelons may have more skills than the guys at the majors but from an outsiders perspective, the experience seems to be a big factor in "how good a pilot is" (now don't go all crazy and say that you've seen guys with 1000h who were better than guys with 20,000 hours... but wouldn't you agree, generally?).

If I may draw a comparison to hockey (however inappropriate that may be). It's like a rookie stuffed with talent (speed, skill, hard shot, good vision) but who lacks experience in the NHL. He's not used to the speed of the game, he doesn't make all the wise decisions. Wouldn't you rather the seasoned veteran, who is cool, calm, collected and consistent - he will usually make the better decisions.

So once again, I'm not saying anything about the training standards (because I know nothing about it), but what I'm saying is that I agree with the quoted captain above when he says that you're buying something you don't get. In the future, when people are going to be buying tickets on AC out of centre island.... they think they're paying for a flight with AC flight crew... in reality that's not the case at all... you don't know what you're buying really (once again that's not at all to say that the crews are not good... just saying)....

My two cents....
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by BTD »

coreydotcom wrote:
teacher wrote:
“You may go to an airline website and buy a ticket, pull up to its desk at the curb, and get onto an airplane that has a similar name painted on it, but half the time, you’re really on a regional airline. The regionals aren’t held to the same safety standards as the majors: Their pilots aren’t required to have as much training and experience, and the public doesn’t know that.” -Captain at a major airline
Seriously? Last time I checked our training and standards were identical. I'd hazard a guess that I do more approaches and landings in a week than a "heavy" guy does in a month.
Teacher, I have an honest question for you from a guy who has never flown a plane (not meant to be an attack on your skill or anything like that):

Wouldn't you agree that in most (i say most...) cases the guys at the majors have more experience than the guys at the regionals... didn't he/she have to shoot all the approaches per week for X amount of years (just like you are doing now) to get to where he/she is now? I can understand that some guys in the lower echelons may have more skills than the guys at the majors but from an outsiders perspective, the experience seems to be a big factor in "how good a pilot is" (now don't go all crazy and say that you've seen guys with 1000h who were better than guys with 20,000 hours... but wouldn't you agree, generally?).
My two cents....
I deleted parts of your post in the quote so it wouldn't take up as much room. No point quoting the entire thing.

As an answer to the your question. From a Canadian perspective.

Generally the guys at the majors will on average have more experience. However, total experience is only one factor of the equation. Something that is equally important is currency. I believe what Teacher was trying to get at, is that at the regional level most flight tend to be shorter and on average your day contains more take-offs and landings and approaches. A pilot doing long haul flying may only do 1 approach per flying day. The pilot at the regional level might do 5+. Say the long haul pilot has been doing long haul for 10 years, he is very experienced. Even if the regional pilot has only been doing it for 2 he is still experienced when it comes to approaches etc. I would say in general his competency level is not any less then the long haul pilots. There will always the ones that slip through on both sides.

Another factor is time on the type of aircraft. A captain could have 20 000 hrs but be brand new to an aircraft type. It is likely that this Captain will rely more heavily on their F/O (assuming the f/o has lots of time on type) than a Captain who has been on that type for a longer time.

The US is a little bit different, because of the way pilots are hired into the regionals. But here in Canada, most people hired at the regional, have a decent amount of experience compared to south of the boarder.

The difference between a pilot with 10 000 hrs and 5000 hrs is minimal, if they are each relatively experienced in their current positions.

The learning curve steepens when you change operations, change aircraft or switch seats.

Hope that explains it.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by teacher »

Well said BTD. I disagree with general statements of any kind as they rarely apply as a whole. Now it may be different in the U.S. but here in Canada at the regional level the training is the same. Total hours in the logbook in Canada is usually more than in the U.S. though I'll give them that.

However as a general rule, judging someone's experience and competance as a pilot by the aircraft they fly is highly inaccurate.
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by coreydotcom »

Thanks BTD, i get that but does that mean that because you don't do something as often you're not as good? (just trying to be the devil's advocate)...

I don't necessarily think so....

also if you do the task more often, wouldn't that perhaps lead to complacency...

Let's hypothetically assume a pilot only does long-haul... flies 8 days a month... his typical flying consists of flying one leg somewhere, overnighting, coming home in another leg the next day or the day after that... let's also assume he's PF on only one of the leg (i.e. he flies one leg and the other pilot flies the return or vice-versa). So he's PF approximately 2-3 times a month. Wouldn't you think the TO/LD would be a bigger event for this pilot and would thus make sure it is down really well everytime? Whereas the guy shooting 2-3 approaches a day might one day miss something because it has become so routine (not that it couldn't happen to the long-haul guy... I guess after 20 years in the majors everything is pretty much routine... but it is still a "bigger" event because he doesn't do it as often)

thanks for the info btw!
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by coreydotcom »

teacher wrote: However as a general rule, judging someone's experience and competance as a pilot by the aircraft they fly is highly inaccurate.
I guess you gotta compare apples with apples and oranges with oranges....it would be hard to compare a guy with 10k hours TT on a C172 with the guy with 500hrs who has 1hr on a regional turboprop in the states somewhere.

thanks for the conversation guys...
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by teacher »

My pleasure! I love a good debate. My point on aircraft being flown is just that, guy walks up to a dash 8 or 1900 and thinks the pilots can't be that good since it's a "small" plane. The same passenger steps onto a Boeing 777 and thinks WOW these must be the Top Guns of the air! Not true in any sense. You never know though, that guy inthe cessna 172 could be a Top Gun flying a rented plane :wink:
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by BTD »

coreydotcom wrote:Thanks BTD, i get that but does that mean that because you don't do something as often you're not as good? (just trying to be the devil's advocate)...

I don't necessarily think so....
Perhaps not, but on average I would say the more you do something (practice) the better you are at it. But someone else could be better than you with less practice.

There are days that I end up shooting up to 8 ILS' to mins in one day. I fly at the commuter level and due to the pilot monitored approach we use, I end up flying the approach phase for each leg with weather below a certain minima. Going back and forth between a few airports that are relatively close together on a bad weather day, you end up doing this. With no autopilot and no flight director. I would hazard a guess and say that I am about as good at flying an approach to mins, as I'm ever going to get (note: I might still suck). Hopefully, someday I will move on probably doing fewer legs per day, and spending more time in cruise, it is most probable that my hand flying abilities will decrease and while most likely still competent, I won't be as precise at hand flying approaches simply because I don't do it as often.

Same principle applies with playing the piano. I played for many years and took lessons. Now I only play when I can find a piano. If I were to start playing semi regularly again, I probably would not attain the level I used to be at. Despite the fact that I used to play quite regularly. I am simply not current, and don't have recent practice at it.

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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by ex-NWT »

teacher wrote:Seriously? Last time I checked our training and standards were identical. I'd hazard a guess that I do more approaches and landings in a week than a "heavy" guy does in a month.
Your guess is wrong I think.
Try 3 months.
I do about 4 legs per month of which 1 maybe 2 as PF
Including holidays probably less.
Just got back from my last trip and the FO let me be PF both stretches :) as I work part time and he does loads of flying. Nice!


We fly with standard fuel. (legal reserves and a contingency fuel, minimum 5 minutes which increases if it turns out that flights to that destination use more.)
For me it usually is enough. CAT 3 weather is ok as most flights receive slots or aren't cat 3b qualified, airport is usually quiet.
Brazil and showers: 15 mins or so. Tired and not on the ball: 15 mins. FO wants it and I don't: we take extra. Company has never asked or called for explanations.
Fatigue is a major issue. I am getting older so 2 drinks max on 24 hr stops and 24 hrs no drinks before flight on the longer ones. Can't keep up any way :)
Flying through the night, jet lag, trying to sleep before a flight just as they start renovating the room above you....pool side room while a wedding is going on....no fun. Eating because you're bored (severely) and have run out of sudoku's....

Basically our company wants to make money and taking extra fuel is expensive. The occasional diversion when it looks like you'll reach destination with less than alternate fuel + 30 mins is still cheaper than carrying extra.
I agree, up to the point that my priority is safety and then it is scd (capt discretion)
teacher wrote:The same passenger steps onto a Boeing 777 and thinks WOW these must be the Top Guns of the air!
good thinking! :)
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Re: Secrets Pilots Won't Tell You - CNN

Post by Gino Under »

BTD

If you'll allow me to shed some light?

Part 121 pilots training to occupy the right seat of an aircraft in Part 121 operations undergo the exact same type rating training as the Captain. There are some differences in their training.
They both must pass a written exam on the aircraft type.
They both must pass an oral examination on the aircraft type.
They both must pass a what's this? what's that? oral examination during a walkaround on the aircraft type.
They both must pass a type rating flight test, the standards for which are stated in the FAA PTS for ATPs, on the aircraft type. (Remember, the FAA doesn't issue a licence, it issues a certificate)

The Captain gets a type rating on his/her certificate when the type rating is successful but the F/O gets nothing in terms of a type rating, even though he/she's completed the exact same type rating training. Type Ratings are considered pilot in command ratings although there is now a requirement for F/Os in Int'l operations to be type rated. (Just a simple matter of completing the appropriate form and submitting it to Oak City)

I have heard from friends in 121 ops that the main reason historically for the F/O being less critically in need of a type rating was to try and avoid the jumping around from carrier to carrier that tends to go on once you have a type rating. Economics 101.

I personally don't think this process of qualifying an F/O should imply that the Part 121 F/O isn't "qualified" to sit in the right seat of an aircraft in 121 or 135 operations
My apology if you already knew this.

Gino :drinkers:
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