Thank you AirCanada

[Sage]

You mean....................nah nah naaa naaaaaa nah! Grow up.

Whatever. Say what you want but that movement is on the way. As Kevin Russell and others have said, Jazz can't change their c2 because it is embedded in the CPA but nothing prevents Air Canada employees from going to a higher priority.

[Kevin Russell]

I don't believe ACPA negotiated anything except goodwill with the company (and to continue the Q400 grievance without prejudice) in letting Sky operate the Q400's. I also don't believe there is anything in the works to change pass priority. All I am saying is that if things were to change (and it is just rumour at this point) it would probably not be to Jazz C2 priority.

[Localizer]

It just occured to me- ACPA wanted something in return for letting management use Sky Regional go into YTZ. How ironic would it be if that compensation involved upgrading their travel priority!?

This would be a huge waste of bargaining capital .. they have too much on their plate as it is with pension, and working conditions for junior pilots. If I was a junior AC pilot and my wawcon remained the same in favour of a higher boarding priority .. i'd be pissed. Then again the junior folks always seem to get the short end of the stick .. so why would it change now?

[bcflyer]

It could change now because the junior pilots (less than 6 yrs service) plus the 320 guys (who are still on formula -%5) far out number the senior guys who want to sacrifice everything to protect the pension..... If everyone actually votes the top guys could be in for a serious shock.....

[mattedfred]

FYI

Regardless of the flying that any Jazz or AC pilot plans to complete after they commute to work either every commute is in contravention of the pass travel policy or non of them are.

Read the policy and get the facts. Otherwise, continue to base your opinions on pure speculation.

[bcflyer]

FYI

Regardless of the flying that any Jazz or AC pilot plans to complete after they commute to work either every commute is in contravention of the pass travel policy or non of them are.

Read the policy and get the facts. Otherwise, continue to base your opinions on pure speculation.

I just read the conditions and fail to see what part of it is in contravention when commuting to work for Air Canada. Which section are you refering to?

[mbav8r]

Policy
Personal travel privileges are subject to the following:
Valid for personal/eligible family use only
Invalid for any business/business related travel. Personal travel privileges on XXX XXXXXX and other airlines are solely for the purpose of pleasure travel and not for any personal/business venture for the employee, family member or travel partner or on behalf of an individual/company for which a salary or commission is paid.

[mattedfred]

I never said commuting to work for AC was against the policy. My point is that commuting to any job is no against the policy.

[Brick Head]

I never said commuting to work for AC was against the policy. My point is that commuting to any job is no against the policy.

mattedfred I agree.

Using passes to get to work is against the travel policy. As with any policy though what is written is just the over view. To get to work for your employer is exempted and the Jazz employees employer has not changed. They don't work for TC.

To give you an idea how serious the pass bureau is about defining this exception, try traveling on your spouses passes to work. If a fellow employee complains your spouse may loose their passes. Only the employee is exempt.

However as with any policy it has a clause at the end that says subject to change from time to time. The CPA guaranteeing passes to jazz employees has the same clause. That is where the situation is at the moment. The grown ups deciding if change is needed.

This isn't our issue, let them figure out the balance. The balance between Jazz employees working for AC versus TC. The balance between junior AC FA's traveling yhz-bos/ewr-yyz while OAL employees are able to travel direct. The balance between those that live at stations served by CPA providers versus those that live at AC stations.

By making this a pilot versus pilot thing all we will do is deflect animosity at ACPA if change does happen, rather than the perpetrator of the change.

[mbav8r]

Brickhead, I realise your post was directed at Matted, but even though you seem to be levelheaded there are those at AC that have and are lobbying for change as to how Jazz employees are boarded using date of hire, same priority. I don't believe for a second that AC management would go about changing that without being prompted. There would be some form of backlash, I'm certain of that. What you are suggesting is that your CEO is 2 yr old throwing a temper tantrum directed at Jazz employees for something Jazz management did. I'll show them, I'll change their passes and see how they like that. Is that how you see CR, a spiteful, revengeful leader?

[Localizer]

What you are suggesting is that your CEO is 2 yr old throwing a temper tantrum directed at Jazz employees for something Jazz management did. I'll show them, I'll change their passes and see how they like that. Is that how you see CR, a spiteful, revengeful leader?

I think everyone needs to wake-up. CR has one goal in mind, get the stock price up, cash-out .. and ride off into the sunset. He doesn't care about Jazz or the business opportunities they pursue, as long as it doesn't affect the CPA. He only cares about AC employees to the point that keeps them on the down spiral, wage-benefit wise, but happy enough to keep doing their jobs and make the company profitable, then he'll make his great-escape with bags of money in hand.

Whats left on the other end? All employees holding an empty bag, and creditors getting ready to steal your first born as collateral. How do we prevent this? We find common ground .. we unite .. we quit the whining over petty crap and focus our efforts on stopping the stupidity.

CEO's come and go .. we're the people that stick with this industry for 30yrs.

[yycflyguy]

I think everyone needs to wake-up. CR has one goal in mind, get the stock price up, cash-out .. and ride off into the sunset. He doesn't care about Jazz or the business opportunities they pursue, as long as it doesn't affect the CPA. He only cares about AC employees to the point that keeps them on the down spiral, wage-benefit wise, but happy enough to keep doing their jobs and make the company profitable, then he'll make his great-escape with bags of money in hand.

Whats left on the other end? All employees holding an empty bag, and creditors getting ready to steal your first born as collateral. How do we prevent this? We find common ground .. we unite .. we quit the whining over petty crap and focus our efforts on stopping the stupidity.

CEO's come and go .. we're the people that stick with this industry for 30yrs.

Well said Localizer. It's a sad but true commentary.

[Brick Head]

What you are suggesting is that your CEO is 2 yr old throwing a temper tantrum directed at Jazz employees for something Jazz management did. I'll show them, I'll change their passes and see how they like that. Is that how you see CR, a spiteful, revengeful leader?

What? No I am suggesting there are some issues management is dealing with that they have identified as needing to be looked at. Have employee groups brought some issues to them? In some cases yes.

The TC issue. Does AC want to allow Jazz employees to use personal passes to travel to work on behalf of TC?

None of our business. AC can and will set policy as they see fit.

The CUPE issue. Some commuting YHZ FA's, remember the company closed the base, have been forced to travel indirect YYZ, or drop no credit while OAL (Georgian included) have boarded a head of them.

None of our business. The company will deal with it, or not, using a balanced view of the situation. Simple as that.

This notion that AC, or AC employees, are out to screw over Jazz employees? No.

I can see why you might come to that conclusion based on some of the comments here though, which is why I suggest they just stop.

In my own opinion? Over time these issues will become more pronounced. New employees who know nothing of the past will not understand why another companies employees enjoy an employment perk before themselves. It is already happening. The largest example of this right now is probably the FA's due size and turn over.

I am not saying however anything is immanent. The last I heard the opposite was true.

But it is none of our business. None of us set policy.

[Brick Head]

Whats left on the other end? All employees holding an empty bag, and creditors getting ready to steal your first born as collateral. How do we prevent this?

Localizer,

You can't envision the future if you don't stop staring in the rear view mirror.

It is already gone. That game has already been played. Nothing left to play it again. Your harping on yesterdays tune. The creditors were at the door step 16 months ago.

Calin's money is attached to the only horse left. The stock price. The only way it goes up is viability. I hope he makes a tonne of money.

Have you noticed what has happened to the stock price since AC stated it was going to use future cash flow to pay down debt? Holly crap man, is what happened. Someone is planning past next week, in order to make a buck? What a concept.

Does he need engaged employees, working with him, to make that happen? Yes he does.

I am not saying we should just blindly trust Calin. What I am saying is that his track record to date, since returning can not be ignored.

Do we want sustainability or not?

We are part of that equation. Just ask WJ.

[yycflyguy]

Wow, Brickhead. Sounds like you are buying into this "good relationship" that our MEC is enjoying with CR. Have we forgotten this was the same hatchet man that we saw in CCAA? The same team-playin'-CEO that was quoted as saying "Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning"?

The stock has done from around $0.97 to currently $3.71 with some analysts projecting it to hit $6.50 and currently have a "buy" on the stock. Do you think that this turnaround and positive news will translate into a long term stable company? What is stopping him from cashing in his chips at $5 and issuing ANOTHER shareholder payout? Why hasn't ACE folded up shop yet? I smell a dirty deal in the works. He has done a remarkable job of portraying his efforts to be to the benefit of a sustainable airline but only time will tell whether it is for long term sustainability or simply posturing to drive up the stock price over the short term to make a personal buck. Localizer said it. He will be long gone with his bags of money while the employees are left with a skeleton airline.

[Localizer]

Brick,

I'm not trying to rain on the parade .. but you said it yourself, its already been done .. and from my past knowledge of CR, he was trained by the best .. RM. I think there will be another horse running out of the barn before this one's over. CR will get that stock as high as he possibly can .. and when he doesn't think it can be pushed anymore .. he'll cash in. They all do .. as Sully said .. CEO's use airlines like ATM's.

Question is .. when he pulls the trigger .. what's going to be left?

[Brick Head]

Wow, Brickhead. Sounds like you are buying into this "good relationship" that our MEC is enjoying with CR. Have we forgotten this was the same hatchet man that we saw in CCAA? The same team-playin'-CEO that was quoted as saying "Nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning"?

Fly guy I am saying that for the first time, in a very long time, we have a CEO that wants to build a company rather than tear it down. I am not saying I necessarily trust him. It is not like I have forgotten he helped tear it apart. I am simply stating that for the moment our interests are aligned, and as long as they are, I'm more than willing to play ball.

The reason our interests are aligned is out of necessity. There is nothing left of this company. The debt level once again is too high 5 short years after exiting CCAA. Why? Yes because of what Milton did. But it is yesterdays news. CR can not play the same game. The only thing left to do now is fail, or rebuild. Those are his, and our choices. Pick one.

The term nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning is a reference to a burning platform type of negotiation tactic. Create a crisis, imagined or real, to motivate people through fear to do as you want. 16 months ago I would agree with you. It was certainly employed, and very well I might add. However central to the burning platform tactic is fear through crisis. Can you point to the current crisis he is using to motivate through fear? I don't see one and we are in negotiations.

Why hasn't ACE folded up shop? Money. They still own 20 something percent of a stock that was worth 97cents. Is now worth $3.70 and may go higher. They no longer control AC.

[Brick Head]

Brick,

I'm not trying to rain on the parade .. but you said it yourself, its already been done .. and from my past knowledge of CR, he was trained by the best .. RM.

Actually no. It is probably more correct to state that the other way around. CR was the mastermind behind the restructured and then hived off entities. The gutting.

CR will get that stock as high as he possibly can .. and when he doesn't think it can be pushed anymore .. he'll cash in. They all do .. as Sully said .. CEO's use airlines like ATM's.

Question is .. when he pulls the trigger .. what's going to be left?

CR is a financial restructuring specialist. I agree I doubt he will be at AC much longer than his mandate. I also agree if he is successful he will be rewarded.

For CR to be successful. For CR to make bags of money. He must produce something of value. Which is the exact opposite of what Milton did. Making money through the extraction of value.

I said this a few years back. CCAA was not about building a long term viable company. CCAA was all about extraction of value. Not until the value is all gone. Not until the hedge funds have sucked everything they can. Meaning we will have to once again hit rock bottom. (we did in the summer of 09.) Not until then will the goal of this company turn to a more traditional vision of making money through the creation of value.

IMO that transition took place spring of 2009.

So to answer your question. If CR walks with money in this instance? It is because he created something. Not because he took everything. If he is successful he will leave behind an airline with legs for the first time in over a decade.

How do I know that. Because money talks and that is the only way left to make it.

[yycflyguy]

Create a crisis, imagined or real, to motivate people through fear to do as you want. 16 months ago I would agree with you. It was certainly employed, and very well I might add. However central to the burning platform tactic is fear through crisis. Can you point to the current crisis he is using to motivate through fear? I don't see one and we are in negotiations.

I don't see one either.... yet. We are supposedly in negotiations but it sounds more like foreplay and the screwing will come later, perhaps after a manufactured crisis. Kind of like not believe fleet expansion plans until they are in company livery passing V1 with your and my ass in the seat I can't believe that negotiations will be positive until the cheque hits my bank account. I see our counterparts at Southwest are making between 25%-28% more on comparable aircraft. Time to get paid, no matter what the manufactured crisis may be.

[Brick Head]

Create a crisis, imagined or real, to motivate people through fear to do as you want. 16 months ago I would agree with you. It was certainly employed, and very well I might add. However central to the burning platform tactic is fear through crisis. Can you point to the current crisis he is using to motivate through fear? I don't see one and we are in negotiations.

I don't see one either.... yet. We are supposedly in negotiations but it sounds more like foreplay and the screwing will come later, perhaps after a manufactured crisis. Kind of like not believe fleet expansion plans until they are in company livery passing V1 with your and my ass in the seat I can't believe that negotiations will be positive until the cheque hits my bank account. I see our counterparts at Southwest are making between 25%-28% more on comparable aircraft. Time to get paid, no matter what the manufactured crisis may be.

Agreed. If this is just foreplay and the burning platform is around the corner? Pull out a fire extinguisher, put out the fire and tell him we have seen this movie. The problem is that burning platforms need a crisis in order to be deployed. It is where the saying don't let a good crisis go to waste comes from. What is there for him to use?

The thing is, at the moment that doesn't sound like what is transpiring. In fact the only abnormal thing transpiring at the moment is the pace at which negots are progressing. Usually this part of the process is the wearing down protracted dragged out part. If I didn't know better I would think AC wanted a deal or something

(The rest is a guess)

In fact that may be the case. There may be some motivation to get us out of the way. It starts with the letter P and ends with the letter ension. Here I point to the letter the unions all signed in the summer of 09 for the club loan, promising to enter into mediation to find solutions to the pension problems, and look at the feasibility of pensions in comparison to similar groups at the competition. So far nothing has happened. However, I point again to the letter from the Finance minister just a few weeks ago reminding the unions of this promise. Again, the document the unions signed was a promise to fix the pension problems and look at feasibility in comparison to the competition. That was a dangerous letter for everyone to sign in my opinion. Particularly those who have pensions, yet no one else at the competition does.

We will not give on this. They know it. Our pension is separate from the other unions anyway. Having us dragged into a penion/gov't/mediation/arbitration type intervention over the need for pensions to be comparable to the competition is probably a bad idea if they want change. Pilots and some form of retirement compensation is standard anyway, but the other unions will just say they won't give if we don't.

Again I'm guessing. A four alarm fire may break out tomorrow. If it does it will be over that P word. That is the one place where our goals do not align with CR as our loss would be the stocks gain. Will he take us on over it? Or just the other groups? Will he pull the letter signed in 09 out on us? So far no.

If he tries bring out a fire axe.

[Poppy]

[quote=

Let's see mainline pilot's asking for the J/S on Jazz flights.[/quote]

What flights does Jazz do that are not AC flights? I thought all of Jazz flying was owned by AC? Besides the TC stuff..its all AC flying right?

[teacher]

Not that I agree with limiting the jump seat but the jump belongs to Jazz and is the responsibility of the Captain. The seats in the back are purchased by Air Canada, not owned by Air Canada.

Lets leave the jump seat out of this. I'm not a commuter BTW.

[WJ700]

Whats left on the other end? All employees holding an empty bag, and creditors getting ready to steal your first born as collateral. How do we prevent this?

Localizer,

You can't envision the future if you don't stop staring in the rear view mirror.

It is already gone. That game has already been played. Nothing left to play it again. Your harping on yesterdays tune. The creditors were at the door step 16 months ago.

Calin's money is attached to the only horse left. The stock price. The only way it goes up is viability. I hope he makes a tonne of money.

Have you noticed what has happened to the stock price since AC stated it was going to use future cash flow to pay down debt? Holly crap man, is what happened. Someone is planning past next week, in order to make a buck? What a concept.

Does he need engaged employees, working with him, to make that happen? Yes he does.

I am not saying we should just blindly trust Calin. What I am saying is that his track record to date, since returning can not be ignored.

Do we want sustainability or not?

We are part of that equation. Just ask WJ.

_________________________________________________________________________________
And maybe you guys are just doing well which is good for everyone....



Revitalized Air Canada is now analysts' top pick

Monday, Nov. 01, 2010 - Financial Post
Scott Deveau

As global airlines continue their recovery out of the depths of the recession, the roles of Air Canada and its smaller domestic rival, WestJet Airlines Ltd., appear to have reversed over the past 12 months as both airlines prepare to release their third-quarter earnings later this week.

Air Canada, which a little more than a year ago was fighting off a bankruptcy, has miraculously managed to become the Street's favoured pick ahead of its earnings Thursday. Meanwhile, concern has arisen about the aggressive expansion plans of WestJet with the growth in demand for air travel within Canada remaining somewhat tepid.

"We do not expect WestJet's shares to appreciate significantly until the economic outlook improves or the airline scales back its fleet plan," said Steve Hansen, Raymond James analyst, in a recent note to clients.

"We believe that management may be considering the latter option, but do not expect any imminent action due to the complexities of making such adjustments. In the meantime (i.e. short-term), we are concerned that pending [third quarter] may disappoint."

Air Canada, on the other hand, has said it expects to grow its overall capacity this year by up 7.5%, but only by about 1% in the domestic market due to weaker demand.

[yycflyguy]

I see that marketing is exploiting the void left by Mexicana and have up-gauged the YYZ-MEX with a 767 from the A319. Amazing that an airline can be "successful" with 85%+ load factor and without the unlocking of shareholder value.

[Black Cat]

This thread is the most disgusting, disheartening, and childish post Ive ever read on AvCanada...and there have been a few do-sees.

We are like 2 passengers in a car driving down the road towards a brick wall. The driver is drunk, going 100mph and laughing at us both because we are locked in the trunk arguing about who gets the last can of Coke. Are we that fn stupid?

WestJet keeps taking more and more domestic capacity every year FACT. They have brought in 757s and are using foreign crews to compete with AC Hawaii routes. They have just aligned with Cathay and publicly state the reason is its to take away from AC profitable flying, the international routes. They want code shares to "every corner of the world", again using foreign pilots, and again to take away from ac profits.....and all we can think about is who doesn't get the dog in the divorce? What your all saying is 'lets get it euthanized so neither of us can have it". Give your heads a shake, theres no FN money in domestic as long as air walmarts teal tails are around with no pentions and revolving door minimum wage happy meal workers. Its not an even playing field anymore, ac needs jazz. jazz needs ac. we are against wj not each other. They are winning. FACT.

For what its worth, as a jazz pilot I can assure you that;

I know that the original posters views dont represent my view. I consider it a fringe rant hidden behind anonymity.

I dont believe that ACPA's views represents the majority of AC pilots.

There will be no denying ANYONE the jumpseat in a plane I am a crew member in. If im flying with captain azzhole at Jazz (whom in 5 years Ive yet to meet) and you try to pull this shit, I'm getting off your plane too because you're obviously mentally unfit and I wont feel safe flying with you after your blood pressure goes up that high.

AC pilots, you have always offered your jump seat graciously, the back end crew either upgrades me or offers me free BOB . I pay the extra 15 buck to fly with you because I enjoy the professionalism and the service in the back. If you dont want me in your plane because you dont like what my company does fine. I will try my next flight then book off with no consequence. Thanks anyways, I will think your a jerk, but I will not lump all your colleges in with you.


lets not shit the bed that we are forced to share.