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Water Rudders - Up or Down?

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HS-748 2A

Post subject: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:40 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:39 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Rock 101

I always park the airplane with the water rudders down.

I have three reasons I feel this habbit makes sense:

- They act as dampers to gusts on the (air) rudder.

- They are ready to go - (One less thing to think about as you're working to get the machine started and taxiing, hoping not to crash into anybody.)

- In the late fall, the less stuff above water, the better. (Less surface area exposed to collect ice.)

Often times I see floatplanes parked with the rudders up.

Why - What are the benefits?

What am I overlooking?

'48

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Bulawrench

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:05 pm

Rank 4

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 2:02 am
Posts: 257
Location: Left Coast

All our guys leave them down when parked for those very reasons.
There is the unwriten rule about take off with them down.
Whoever catches you gets the case of beer.....

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Bushav8er

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:09 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Northern Can

Down, unless wind/wave action will cause them to bang bottom.

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HS-748 2A

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:53 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:39 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Rock 101

Bushav8er wrote:

Down, unless wind/wave action will cause them to bang bottom.

That of course, makes sense. It's just suprising how often you'll see them up on an airplane docked in deep water.

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Redneck_pilot86

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:05 am

Rank 8

Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:47 pm
Posts: 780
Location: between 60 and 70

When docking on rivers we always left them up to avoid them being hit by debris drifting by...

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GoinNowhereFast

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 3:46 am

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:35 am
Posts: 373

I always pick them up if the waves are causing them to swing back and forth. Saves the wear and tear on the cables and pullies.

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Bushav8er

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:33 am

Rank 8

Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:37 pm
Posts: 916
Location: Northern Can

GoinNowhereFast wrote:

I always pick them up if the waves are causing them to swing back and forth. Saves the wear and tear on the cables and pullies.

How you figure? More resistance in the water (down) and waves would still wash over them when up. Cables and pulleys are designed to move, and mover far more in normal use by you in flight then by a little wave action.

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Brewhouse

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:44 am

Rank 2

Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:15 am
Posts: 61

I usually park overnight with the rudders up, and use control locks. In the otter I fly the clutch disengages rudders when up. I don't recall ever having a problem taxing out with rudders up.

However most of the time the docks are near shore in shallower water and I don't want to risk the rudders being beat up while hanging up to two feet below the heals of the floats.

When late fall rolls around I will pack my pulley's and cable guides with a heavy grease to prevent freezing for a period of time.

I have found this works well for me, but other than damage from bouncing on bottom I don't see any issue with leaving them down.

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Idriveplane

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:44 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 6:54 pm
Posts: 409
Location: Tree tops

Always down, unless your gonna smash em up on the bottom

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snoopy

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:57 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:19 am
Posts: 982
Location: The Dog House

Down most of the time - up when beached, parked in shallow water, or parked on a river with fast current and/or debris.

HS-748 2A wrote:
"I always park the airplane with the water rudders down.
I have three reasons I feel this habbit makes sense:
...
- They are ready to go - (One less thing to think about as you're working to get the machine started and taxiing, hoping not to crash into anybody.)"

That's what aircraft checks are for! You'll only forget once in a piston Otter in tight quarters and you'll never forget again!

There are some occasions when one might intentionally depart with rudders down. Three I can think of that are not all that uncommon: cable and/or handle breaks off in your hand, cables ice up (the heavy grease is important, but doesn't always save you), departing a skinny lake with a strong crosswind. In the latter case it is sometimes possible to pull up the rudders once on the step with air rudder authority, but not always advisable under certain conditions.

Cheers,
Kirsten B.

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Lost Lake

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:48 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 1:11 pm
Posts: 1015
Location: On top

Ihave only ever parked a plane with rudders down except for 2 reasons:
1. They hit on bottom
2. The boss wanted it (We had rudder locks)

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GoinNowhereFast

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:19 am

Rank 5

Joined: Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:35 am
Posts: 373

Bushav8er wrote:

GoinNowhereFast wrote:

I always pick them up if the waves are causing them to swing back and forth. Saves the wear and tear on the cables and pullies.

I am just going by what I've seen when a boat wake comes by. They move a lot less when they are up. I also had the benefit of a dock that was sheltered from the wind, so it didn't knock the rudder around at all. Also, it's what the boss wanted, and I didn't argue.

I don't really buy your "cables and pulleys are designed to move" argument though. Continuous movement will still wear them out faster than if they were not moving.

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ruddersup?

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:32 pm

Rank 3

Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:10 am
Posts: 155

A lot of variables here to consider.
What type of a/c?
Windy?
Exposure?
Water condition?
Docking procedure?\
How long you will be docked?
I've had the habit (45 yrs now, damn) to lift them. This was formed flying the Beaver and my home base docking procedure (tight spot) required me to lift the water rudders, at about 30 feet out, to allow the wind to weather cock me nicely sideways to the dock. I found this also (in rougher water) would prevent them from swinging back and forth and wearing parts. Of couse pointing a/c into wind is a must if possible and then the air rudder swinging is not an issue. If the air rudder is an issue then perhaps swing the a/c around 180 deg might eliminate it. I also find the aircraft much easier to swing around at the dock by hand with rudders up. I guess in the big picture it's boils down to seamanship and how you hold your tongue. But they don't call me ruddersup? for nothing, lol.

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ragbagflyer

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:46 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:45 am
Posts: 532

Unless special circumstances dictate, always down. You taxi in to the dock with them down and you taxi away with them down so why complicate things. As was mentioned they do dampen rudder movement if you haven't locked the pedals. As for wear and tear on the cables and pulleys, to me it would be a negligible difference.

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J31

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 8:48 pm

Rank 7

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:21 pm
Posts: 638

I never have to worry about water rudders :mrgreen:

From MNR web site http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/stdprodconsume ... 002695.jpg

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Heliian

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 9:38 pm

Rank 6

Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2009 10:14 pm
Posts: 444

J31 wrote:

I never have to worry about water rudders

Or going over your duty hours

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snoopy

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Sun Oct 31, 2010 10:30 pm

Rank 8

Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:19 am
Posts: 982
Location: The Dog House

Sure better pay attention to the proper configuration of the landing gear though... :wink:

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pilotidentity

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:17 am

Rank 2

Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:00 am
Posts: 98

I always left them down, then one day started working for a company that put them up at night. Never asked why just followed the procedure. I did taxi away from the dock with the rudders up a couple of times, once I pushed off right into the wind, taxied for awhile and didn't notice till I went to put them up... :oops:

I know, I know, lifting the cable up and down should be part of the walk around. So should turning the plane around at the dock so you can check the other wing....

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The Old Fogducker

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:47 am

Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:13 am
Posts: 1792

Been a long time since I was in charge of a floatplane, but I used to retract them at the dock due to spending lots of time in rivers and sticks, weeds, logs, panties, etc would get hung up on the water rudders. Also, if I had to turn the plane by hand at the dock, it was easier with them up, and a little less resistance if there was any current running.

Sure was "the funnest time" of my flying career though ... felt free as a bird, and got into places where you'd swear you were the first human to ever set foot on that shore ... in a lot of ways the flying hadn't changed much from when my grandfather flew floats in the 20's and 30's....it was still compass and time, with a thumb on the line on the map.

OFD

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HS-748 2A

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:56 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:39 pm
Posts: 1125
Location: Rock 101

You always get wistful when you're reminded of the bad 'ol days, don't ya Fog?

Next time you're out this way, we'll have to go turn some money into smoke and noise and then after, maybe turn some scotch into piss.

How about it ~ ? :wink:

'48

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The Old Fogducker

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:53 pm

Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:13 am
Posts: 1792

It's as good as done lil' buddy!

Its an invitation which may take awhile to partake in, but it will indeed happen.

As I've said before, and doubtless will be said til I turn purple, some of the best times of my life were spent up in YXY, and there are times I wish I'd remained there.

The suggestion about turning some Scotch into piss is superb, and I'll supply the raw material for the manufacturing process!

The Old (waxing nostalgic) Fogducker

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Siddley Hawker

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:11 am

Rank 11

Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:56 am
Posts: 3056
Location: 50.13N 66.17W

Our docks were almost always built off shallow beaches, so we pulled 'em up. On the buoy or at deep water docks, down. Had water rudders down on the prestart checklist though.

Quote:

.. felt free as a bird, and got into places where you'd swear you were the first human to ever set foot on that shore.

Along similar lines Foggy, one Saturday night half a lifetime ago I got weathered in at a rather exclusive fishing club - playground for Ontario Paper, Alcoa and Continental Can - but with no one there that weekend. The next morning was severe clear and the camp manager said "Sid, let's go get some pike for breakfast." The camp chef had mixed bread overnight then baked it just before we left, so we grabbed a loaf of bread, still warm from the oven, a frying pan, some butter, flour and a tea kettle and fired up the Beaver. We flew about 50 miles north of the camp and landed on another lake just above the rapids. While I beached the airplane and got the fire going good, John went down the rapids and ten minutes later came back with a couple of pike. I filleted them and we fried them up. After breakfast we both sat back and drank tea that was strong enough to walk, grinning at each other like fools. We agreed it didn't get much better than that.

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atpl53

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:30 am

Rank 3

Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 11:28 pm
Posts: 121

What are water rudders? :smt040

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The Old Fogducker

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:01 am

Rank (9)

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2004 1:13 am
Posts: 1792

atpl53 wrote:

What are water rudders? :smt040

So .... its come to this ...... is this what Cat Driver used to moan about .... the dumbing down of aviation?

Tee Hee

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1000 HP

Post subject: Re: Water Rudders - Up or Down?

Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:30 am

Rank 8

Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2004 4:00 pm
Posts: 865
Location: South-East Asia

I parked which ever way the boss wanted them. Up in one place, down in another. Away from base, they were usually up. I liked to have them up because its a good habit to get into. Less likely to forget them down when backing into a beach. :rolleyes:

Once in a strong cross-wind flying a 185, I took off with them down ( on purpose ) because it kept me out of the rock-face on a skinny lake...

If you are used to having them up, it can save you some headaches. I always check that they are up on final flying an amphib 208. Short-field landing on that one would be nasty with them down...

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