Snag in the log Book?

[Hawkeye4077]

So, just curious, is it normal for a FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR to open up a logbook, see there is a snag and decide to take it up for a flight test without having maintenance looking at it and releasing it?


Just asking

[Amateur Turbines]

Haha that's funny............

So no, not normal, maint should always clear snags and decide if it needs a flight test or not.

Did he clear the snag after?

I would be intersested to know what he wrote.

[Hawkeye4077]

Not sure, the story has been told to me I never saw the log book. BUT Apparently 2 different Instructor went flying with the plance without mtc looking at it and with a snag in the book


Lovely

[!MC]

Was the snag an airworthyness item? not everything printed in the logbook grounds an airplane.

As for doing a test flight without talking to mtc....?

in our COM, anything such as test flights or ferry flights need to be authorized by both the CP, Ops manager, PRM etc.

[brownbear]

Defects need to be rectified prior to flight. that may be either repaired, or deferred. But does require being answered.

if you are concerned to post here, I would point this out to the person who did that and see what happens. Or if you feel strongly I'd suggest calling their POI.

But the company PRM might be the first person to point this out to, as they are responsible to have systems in place to prevent this.

[Troubleshot]

If this was the entry he may have felt he was doing the right thing, but by what your saying I'd say not.

CARS 571.10

"Where a person signs a maintenance release in respect of maintenance performed on an aircraft, the satisfactory completion of which cannot be verified by inspection or testing of the aircraft on the ground, the maintenance release shall be made conditional on the satisfactory completion of a test flight carried out pursuant to subsections 605.85(2) and (3), by the inclusion of the phrase “subject to satisfactory test flight”.

[Heliian]

Flying with an open snag voids your C of A.

like said above it must be rectified or deffered prior to the next flight, even if it's something as simple as a pos. lite burnt out, somebody has to either fix it or you could write that the parts are on order and no night flight is allowed or whatever the company procedures may be. Pilots in general either fail to see the open snag or just don't care about it. This type of crap has been going on for years. If you find a problem, snag it and then immediately tell maintenance about it, take the logbook in and show them. What most likely happened with you is that the guy didn't want to waste his time by rectifying it, trying to push through his schedule. (Worst case) Had anything happened on that flight and TC saw the open snag, there would have been some nice fines dished out and the insurance company could and most likely would have cancelled the policy.

[Hedley]

The MCM should have the answers in it.

Borrow a copy, and skim through it, and read the section on defects. Well worth the time!

[Lost Lake]

Most defects do not ground an airplane. I don't believe there has to be anything in writing in order to defer a snag. No MCM I've read or wrote states deferred in writing, only deferred. Consequently, the aircaft is still airworthy and legally able to fly. The old school only wrote airworthy snags, which always seemed to happen on the trip to maintenance.

You might want to look up the definition of a snag. I could tell you but it might be a learning curve for some of you.

[iflyforpie]

I don't believe there has to be anything in writing in order to defer a snag. No MCM I've read or wrote states deferred in writing, only deferred.

Ours does.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think there is often real instructor ignorance on how to handle defects. Many FTU's won't allow the pilots to write anything in the defect column and in general the what/how/when of dealing with defects is not explicitely dealt with in CPL training. Therefore it should be no surprise new intructors do not have a good idea of what should be snagged and how to do it properly, including what JL entry(s) is required to release the aircraft for flight. Also to know when something is broken you have to know what it is supposed to be doing when it is functioning correctly. This requires a reasonable knowledge about aircraft systems, another topic that IMO is not in general very well handled at FTU's. My CPL and Instructor students get peppered with a steady stream of system skill testing questions and when a defect occurs on the aircraft we walk through the whole procedure including reviewing the MCM, company directives, CARS and talking to the PRM/AME. In the unlikely event a real snag has not occured by the end of the training than I will make up a scenario to work through.

[Heliian]

Because it's an FTU, they must have a procedure set out in their MCM for the rectification or deferral of defects. MOST places will allow deferral's over the phone that are written in by the pilot but I've never worked for a company that doesn't require a rectification or deferral prior to flight. You can also take into account MEL's but you still have to show that the a/c is airworthy or you can be committing an offence as stated in the CAR's:

(vii) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft operated pursuant to Part VII, it is not always practicable for the pilot to personally undertake all actions required to determine the airworthiness status, because of the high levels of utilization, complexity of the aircraft, and the limited time available for all the various aspects of pre-flight preparation required. A common standard must be applied to all aircraft of a fleet. For these reasons, the flight training unit and the air operator regulations require the establishment of a formal system for the control of defects.

(viii) Such systems provide a greater degree of confidence that the airworthiness effects of defects have been taken into account, and ensure consistency of application of the standards. They also set limits on the periods for which the repair of a defect may be deferred. For aircraft operated in commercial air service, this system is normally based on the use of Minimum Equipment Lists (MEL), thereby providing the pilot with a sound basis on which to make his decision regarding the intended flight.

(ix) The final decision, however, still rests with the pilot. A pilot who accepts an aircraft with defects, the repair of which has been deferred in accordance with an approved system, has a good defence against any possible charge of flying an unairworthy aircraft, whereas a pilot who undertakes a flight with an aircraft that is not in compliance with the approved system to control the deferral of repairs to defects commits an offence.

(x) The complexity of a system used to control the deferral of repairs to defects will vary according to the type of aircraft operated and the size and nature of the operation and may include reference to an approved minimum equipment list and/or configuration deviation list. In all cases the control system must be described in the air operator's maintenance control manual. Once approved, compliance with those procedures is mandatory.

[KK7]

605.10 (2) Where a minimum equipment list has not been approved in respect of the operator of an aircraft and the aircraft has equipment, other than the equipment required by subsection (1), that is not serviceable or that has been removed, no person shall conduct a take-off in the aircraft unless
(a) where the unserviceable equipment is not removed from the aircraft, it is isolated or secured so as not to constitute a hazard to any other aircraft system or to any person on board the aircraft;
(b) the appropriate placards are installed as required by the Aircraft Equipment and Maintenance Standards; and
(c) an entry recording the actions referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) is made in the journey log, as applicable.

I figured this was pretty clear...

[Bushav8er]

I don't believe there has to be anything in writing in order to defer a snag. No MCM I've read or wrote states deferred in writing, only deferred.

Many I've seen (and written) do.

The MCM has to be approved by TC and that means items in it have to be IAW CARs.

All Snags (defects) are to be recorded, ie. written, in the Log and repaired before next flight or deferred, again by writing in the log. Those defects have to be repaired, usually, within 30 days.

BPF - good on you for making this stuff part of the students lessons.

[Lost Lake]

DEFECT REPORTING AND RECTIFICATION

All defects in any part of the aircraft or its equipment shall be entered in the aircraft Journey Log, before further flight, by the Pilot in Command or an AME. In addition to entries in the journey log book, all defects shall be recorded in the PRM’s tracking Binder.

It is the sole responsibility of PRM and/or the AMO to determine if the defect can be deferred without affecting the airworthiness of the aircraft.
All defects shall be rectified by an appropriately rated AMO, before further flight of the aircraft, except as provided in this section.
Where permitted by CAR 605.10, aircraft having outstanding defects may be operated subject to the following procedures:
a) No defect rectification shall be deferred for longer than the next scheduled inspection following discovery of the defect. If parts are not available, the AMO will inspect the defect to the degree necessary to ensure that the deferral may continue to the next inspection.
Only those defects which do not affect the Airworthiness of the aircraft shall be deferred

This is a brand new MCM, just approved. Each organization will have a different deferral system, depending on size. The original post was about an instructor reading a defect and performing a "flight test". If they know for sure that the PRM/AMO deferred the defect, then they can fly. Was there a note "subject to flight test" indicating the defect had been rectified.

The bigger picture here is knowing what constitutes a defect and is the aircraft still airworthy.

[Heliian]

If it's not written in as deferred, it's still an open defect and needs to be handled accordingly. In your case, you don't have an AMO so you put the responsibility on the PRM or an AMO. Everyone will have a slightly different way of handling defects but your reference lost lake states that it still has to be deffered. Also, it's the pilot's responsibility to make sure there are no defects open and that any maintenance/components that is/are due does not get overflown.

[Posthumane]

Getting away from the FTU for a second, if a defect on a private aircraft is considered elementary maintenance to repair (i.e. burnt out lightbulb on a position light), can the defect be deferred by the pilot without going to an AMO?

I had a light burn out recently on my aircraft, and I obviously would not fly it at night in that state, but I did fly it during the day when the light is not required, as I did not have a replacement bulb at the time. Was this kosher?

[Heliian]

Getting away from the FTU for a second, if a defect on a private aircraft is considered elementary maintenance

2 Things: One, totally different for private A/C. Two, if it's elementary work, it's a non-issue as you can do the task or defer it. In the case of private a/c the pilot or whoever is in custody and control has the responsibility for airworthiness. Most private pilots won't endanger the lives of themselves or passengers, it's when you get money involved and the "perceived" pressure on the instructor that you need more rules to prevent dangerous practices.

[FlaplessDork]

625.10 Unserviceable Equipment - Aircraft without a Minimum Equipment List

Information Note:

The following provisions, although considered advisory in nature, have been included in the main body of these standards due to their importance. They are not standards.

(i) CAR 605 requires that all equipment listed in the applicable airworthiness standard, and all equipment required for the particular flight or type of operation, must be functioning correctly prior to flight. The requirement for a particular system or component to be operative can be determined by reference to the type certificate data sheet, operating regulations or the applicable equipment list in the aircraft operating manual.

(ii) Although the responsibility for deciding whether an aircraft may be operated with outstanding defects rests with the pilot in command, an error in this determination could result in a contravention under these regulations. It is for this reason that the regulations require that full details of all defects be entered in the journey log. The pilot in command must be fully aware of the condition of the aircraft if he is to make the correct decision regarding the intended flight. The manner in which the pilot makes this decision, however, will vary according to the type of operation of the aircraft. In the following paragraphs, private and commercial aircraft are considered separately.

(iii) Defects (e.g. buckling, cracks, extensive corrosion) of the skin or structure of the aircraft or of the pressure hull of a pressurized aircraft beyond the safe limits established by the manufacturer in his maintenance manual or other approved maintenance instructions will render that aircraft unfit for safe operation.

(iv) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter not operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft not operated pursuant to Part VII, the pilot must review the log prior to flight and decide whether any of the defects recorded affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. Reference may be made to the type certificate data sheet, the aircraft operating manual, or any list provided by the aircraft manufacturer respecting equipment that must be operational for the intended flight. The Minister may also approve a minimum equipment list for use by an owner. Any or all of these may indicate that particular items of equipment are mandatory.

(v) In the case of an aircraft operated pursuant to CAR 604, specific instructions must be provided in the operations manual to facilitate this assessment.

(vi) Where in doubt, the pilot should obtain the advice of an AME. This is best done by requesting the AME to inspect the defective system or component to determine its effect upon the aircraft's fitness for flight. By following this procedure and obtaining the AME's signature in the log book in the form of a maintenance release, the pilot will be able to demonstrate, if necessary, that he has taken all reasonable steps to ensure the airworthiness of the aircraft. Inspection of defective systems by an AME, although advisable, is not a legal requirment. As stated earlier, it is the pilot's responsibility to determine whether the aircraft is fit for the intended flight.

(vii) In the case of an aeroplane or helicopter operated pursuant to Part IV, or an aircraft operated pursuant to Part VII, it is not always practicable for the pilot to personally undertake all actions required to determine the airworthiness status, because of the high levels of utilization, complexity of the aircraft, and the limited time available for all the various aspects of pre-flight preparation required. A common standard must be applied to all aircraft of a fleet. For these reasons, the flight training unit and the air operator regulations require the establishment of a formal system for the control of defects.

(viii) Such systems provide a greater degree of confidence that the airworthiness effects of defects have been taken into account, and ensure consistency of application of the standards. They also set limits on the periods for which the repair of a defect may be deferred. For aircraft operated in commercial air service, this system is normally based on the use of Minimum Equipment Lists (MEL), thereby providing the pilot with a sound basis on which to make his decision regarding the intended flight.

(ix) The final decision, however, still rests with the pilot. A pilot who accepts an aircraft with defects, the repair of which has been deferred in accordance with an approved system, has a good defence against any possible charge of flying an unairworthy aircraft, whereas a pilot who undertakes a flight with an aircraft that is not in compliance with the approved system to control the deferral of repairs to defects commits an offence.

(x) The complexity of a system used to control the deferral of repairs to defects will vary according to the type of aircraft operated and the size and nature of the operation and may include reference to an approved minimum equipment list and/or configuration deviation list. In all cases the control system must be described in the air operator's maintenance control manual. Once approved, compliance with those procedures is mandatory