"There's no such thing a a little ice"

[swordfish]

Well, ye Olde Fogducker & I got into a spat about this on another thread, so I decided to move it to a new topic. Here's the history:

"There's no such thing as just a little ice." The Old (spray me) Fogducker

A popular myth, propagated by the Icing Course academics whose tunnel vision of the perfect world has never been North of the 60th parallel.

I've flown with a "little ice" hundreds of times.

Just as you have, OFD...

and here's his reply:

"Getting away with it," and recommending it as a 2010 accepted way of doing business to someone new to the north are two different things Swordfish.

I'd like to think I'd learned something from those wind tunnel "academics" that I didn't know when I first started flying when it was a "recommended practice" to start a takeoff roll with just the first couple of feet of the leading edge cleaned off because the rest will likely blow away. Things change.

Almost 40 years ago now, that recommendation came from several pilots, each with about a thousand hours, which at the time I thought was enough experience to consider them to be knowlege vessels which held the sum total of aviation wisdom on the face of the earth.

Initiate flight with all the ice you want Swordfish.

We carry deice fluid now, and the standard of care requires its use ... not just getting away with things.....at least in my current semi-retired operation anyway.

The Old Fogducker

[swordfish]

Now for a guy who has obvious common sense and experience - as demonstrated by his previous posts - and someone whose opinions I actually have time for, I was kinda stunned at this obnoxious reply, which goes way further than my tongue-in-cheek-comment.

I hardly ADVOCATE initiating flight with anything less than a clean airplane, or "Getting away with it". In fact having been a teacher of the discipline when I was a chief pilot we had to toe the academic line.

But I hasten to advise any newbies to the sport that there is in fact something called "a little ice"...

Then there's "more than a little ice.

And if you fly up North for any length of time, where your nearest CDIF is in Toronto, your nearest spray truck is in Yellowknife, your nearest hangar is in Norman Wells, your nearest herman nelson is in the hangar, and your nearest above-0° day will be in 4 months' time, one skill you're going to HAVE TO develop is differentiating between the 2 conditions.

Now that being said, you are going to have to get rid of as much of the shit as possible and do your leading edges. But how you get up to your tail which is 15' feet above you to do that can only be left to your imagination.

And don't give me any glib comebacks that "you shouldn't go there if you're gonna get rained-on/drizzled-on". That's about as good as staying out of rough water when you're on floats.

[railker]

Noone is saying you can't physically fly with 'a little ice'. What it comes down to is 'why run the risk?' You CAN fly an aircraft without any lights, or a 'little overweight', or anything to that effect if you're feeling like luck is on your side and you want to run the risk, but when someone's life is at stake -- yours included -- IMO, I think it's important to stick to common sense and play it safe rather than with fire. Or ice, in this case.

As far as airflow over the wing is concerned, no, there is no such thing as a little ice. Hell, those little homebuilt planes can be taken down by a spattering of bugs on the leading edge of their wings.

And legally speaking, CARs 602.11(2) states "No person shall conduct or attempt to conduct a take-off in an aircraft that has frost, ice or snow adhering to any of its critical surfaces."

[Slappy the Squirrel]

Man oh man.

So exactly at what point does a little ice become more than a little ice? Is this an exact science or is it opinion based?

[railker]

Man oh man.

So exactly at what point does a little ice become more than a little ice? Is this an exact science or is it opinion based?

Well, in de-icing training for a 737, there were limitations to the amount of 'contamination' permitted before de-icing HAD to be performed, by actual measurement, but that was a long time ago, can't remember any dimensions off the top of my head. And it was also dependent on weather conditions and whatnot, and where the icing was located on the wing -- leading edges definitely not permissible, but a small amount aft from the leading edge in an outlined area on the wing skin would be.

[HS-748 2A]

.

[Clodhopper]

And if you fly up North for any length of time, where your nearest CDIF is in Toronto, your nearest spray truck is in Yellowknife, your nearest hangar is in Norman Wells, your nearest herman nelson is in the hangar, and your nearest above-0° day will be in 4 months' time, one skill you're going to HAVE TO develop is differentiating between the 2 conditions.

Your mentality of "a little ice" versus "more than a little" is exactly why there ISN'T adequate de-ice facilities or even heaters available at outstations. If enough pilots at a company manage to "get away with it" at an outstation often enough, any owner aiming to avoid spending any money where not completely necessary is going to look at the situation and say: "Geeze, we've never had to deice at that place, why would I fork out to put adequate equipment there?"

An unnecessarily reckless mentality perpetrated by many reckless people before hand. All it takes is the wrong person seeing what you're doing once, and its game over. There is a similar argument in another thread right now about negligence and intent relating to the Norman Wells low-and-over accident. Apply the same logic to this situation. If something went wrong, or even if it didn't and someone caught you...It was your decision NOT to de-ice.

If there are any FO's that are faced with situations like this at their workplaces, do the following:

1 - State your position that the aircraft needs to be de-iced.
2 - If #1 does not work, unplug your headset, and de-plane.
3 - If #2 does not work, use a phone, call your Chief Pilot.
4a - If #3 does not work, use a phone, call Transport, ask for their interpretation of the CARs.
4b - If you dont like 4a, then take the other option, QUIT, and find a job with an operator that stresses safety.

It shocks me that we're even entertaining a discussion about taking off with contamination on an aircraft as we're about to enter another winter season. Have we not had enough takeoff-contamination related accidents?

[trey kule]

Slappy....an excellent question.

The definition of a little bit of ice is dependent on a number of things...Is the trip important?
Will I miss happy hour? do I want to have someone in dispatch screaming at me for the $1000 bill for de ice.
Yes these all seem to be determinates for whether it is little ice or not.

The truth is no one knows. And even if you are "sure" (note previous sentence) you may pick up a little more on the climb out...
But...if you have no ice then you actually can know that you are OK.
simple. In one case you know for sure. In the other you ae convincing yourself that you are able to judge the aerodynamic deterioration from ice accumulation for simply looking at it.

Lastly you can have to little ice....but that refers to mojitos and notairplanes.

As long as human beings fly airplanes they will hold to all sorts of premises as being able to determine how much is a little.

[Frank Gallagher]

I caught just a bit of AIDS on the weekend but it's just a bit so I should be ok.

[Brown Bear]

I caught just a bit of AIDS on the weekend but it's just a bit so I should be ok.

And your girlfriend is just a little pregnant!

[Rotten Apple #1]

Here we go again belittling each other.

[Flygal]

And if you fly up North for any length of time, where your nearest CDIF is in Toronto, your nearest spray truck is in Yellowknife, your nearest hangar is in Norman Wells, your nearest herman nelson is in the hangar, and your nearest above-0° day will be in 4 months' time, one skill you're going to HAVE TO develop is differentiating between the 2 conditions.

Now that being said, you are going to have to get rid of as much of the shit as possible and do your leading edges. But how you get up to your tail which is 15' feet above you to do that can only be left to your imagination.

99% of the time it's only the leading edges that need to be done. But if it's been sitting somewhere for a while and you have ice adhering to the tops, then really it's only common sense to do everything to de-ice.

Saying "Well how am I suppose to reach 15' up", is another way of saying "I'm lazy". It's 2010, ladders have been around for centuries. The recent invention of extendable de-ice sprayers have been known to help too.

[trey kule]

A little bit off the topic, but how many pilots that have taken the deicing training can actually tell the differences between the fluids, the temp and mixture ratios, and how to properly apply them..Not a big deal if you taxi up to the bay and someone does it for you, but that is not usually the case with smaller planes.

A few years ago I was at a northern airport on a bad day and I saw everything from windshield washer fluid to alcohol, to cold mixes (that should have been heated) applied to different airplanes.. Also saw some pilots getting out with a garden sprayer, cold, with god knows what in it and giving the wings a fine mist.

I think CP's should, where pilots are flying around in smaller airplanes in the winter , actually check to see that the fluids used are being properly used... but as they probably wont do that, it behooves all pilots flying in Canada to make sure they actually understand what those courses teach...try taking the exam without bothering to review the material and see how you do

[KAG]

First flight of the day, frost/snow/ice covered plane - broom/deice fluid.
Flight through cloud, near zero OAT - you have ice on leading edge, blow boots on final, clean it off with broom prior to next leg.
Cold plane, cold OAT, snow falling - chances are it won't adhere. Broom/Tactile inspection before loading.
Freezing anything - well then you need to deice/anti-ice or go have a coffee and wait it out.

Pretty simple really.

[aviator2010]

First flight of the day, frost/snow/ice covered plane - broom/deice fluid.
Flight through cloud, near zero OAT - you have ice on leading edge, blow boots on final, clean it off with broom prior to next leg.
Cold plane, cold OAT, snow falling - chances are it won't adhere. Broom/Tactile inspection before loading.
Freezing anything - well then you need to deice/anti-ice or go have a coffee and wait it out.

Pretty simple really.

+1

[Meatservo]

This is great!

Self-righteous idealistic soapboxing on the one hand and pragmatic realism on the other! Or is it irresponsible stupidity on the one hand, and commendable fastidious commitment to safety on the other? Who is correct? Who will win? Will our friend, the devil-may-care Swordfish prevail, or our Zero-Tolerance colleagues?

Stay tuned and find out!

[PanEuropean]

So exactly at what point does a little ice become more than a little ice? Is this an exact science or is it opinion based?

Slappy:

Thats a really easy question to answer, with a rock-solid solid scientific (in this case, the behavioural sciences) foundation.

If you are flying along in an aircraft that has full de-ice capability, and you notice 'a little ice' out there on the leading edge, then it is just 'a little ice'... nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, if you are flying the exact same aircraft in the exact same conditions and pick up the exact same quantity of ice - but you don't have full de-ice capability - then it is "more than a little ice", and it is time to get seriously worried.

Michael

PS: Recent scholarly research has indicated that ice seeks out non-de-iced aircraft, in much the same way that tornados seek out trailer parks...

[railker]

Was just looking through some old 'FAA General Aviation News' and advisory circular articles I have in a flight training manual I got from my stepfather. Won't post all the pages, but there are a few notes under 'Summary on Icing' I'll just post up here FYI, not quoted because I'll simply paraphrase ...

Accidents
- Airplanes equipped for icing have accidents as often as those not equipped
- Single engine aircraft are involved in icing accidents as often as twins
- Most pilots involved in accidents due to icing had had briefings warning of possible icing conditions

Freezing Rain
- Freezing rain or drizzle is among the worst of icing conditions, and can produce accumulations of ice that have been reported to be as high as an inch in a minute
- De-icing equipment usually cannot handle icing produced by freezing rain, and when clear ice builds up, it is difficult to dislodge

Precautions
- Basically, don't fly into conditions where there might be icing or risk for icing -- including not flying at all if severe icing is in the forecast.

Ice on the Airframe
- Ice built up to one-half inch on the leading edge of the wing can reduce lift by 50% and increase drag by 50%, and will likely increase stall speed and bring on the stall at a lower angle of attack. Ice also adds weight, about 300 lbs per half inch.
- Ice can also affect reception of antennas, or could possible damage them
- Ice on wings and control surfaces changed their aerodynamic qualities and balance properties

[short bus]

This is great!

Self-righteous idealistic soapboxing on the one hand and pragmatic realism on the other! Or is it irresponsible stupidity on the one hand, and commendable fastidious commitment to safety on the other? Who is correct? Who will win? Will our friend, the devil-may-care Swordfish prevail, or our Zero-Tolerance colleagues?

Stay tuned and find out!

LOL

you're awesome

[swordfish]

the devil-may-care Swordfish prevail, or our Zero-Tolerance colleagues?

Devil-may-care...? Hardly.

The difference between a little ice, and more than a little is clearly defined by the "zero-tolerance" academics who have never flown in the real world, and have "all the answers". A DC3, 99, King Air, Twotter, and a Jetstream, all have their own definition of what's a little ice. And having flown them all for 'a long time' before all this Contamination awareness was thrust in our faces every year (the same old message, year after year), I can attest to the unbelievable capabilities of each type to fly with a little ice on it.

You just don't rotate aggressively, you rotate with as much speed as the runway will permit, you don't pitch up like a homesick angel, and you monitor what you can see on the wings till it burns off. Of course these techniques were never spelled out in our annual Icing Training - in fact I don't ever recall seeing this being suggested as a solution to your immediate woes.

And I wasn't referring to places where you can get deiced at home, or in a major center, with resources and facilities, KAG. I was referring to going on a trip in pitch black dark, new moon, -5° all over the Great Slave region, where you land at Armpit, NWT, which is a 2-mile drive from the town, to medivac a critically injured patient where delay is intolerable.

Sure there are options - the least desirable of which is to wait till you can enforce the "clean" concept to the standards which we are all taught. And as for some wisecrack suggesting my failure to find a 15' ladder and do the tail as being "lazy"...regrettably that underscores your lack of familiarity with these Northern airports and the facilities available in the middle of the night. You'd be lucky enough to find a suitable broom, for God's sake!

I really hate to admit it, but sometimes, you simply do your best with what you've got at hand, then depart with a little ice.

[pontius]

Scandinavian Airlines System lost a MD80 just after T/O a few years ago; ice had built up on top of the wings during a ground stop after refuelling. The ice detached itself during the T/O roll, entered the engines which promptly flamed out.
In addition to some minor adjustments to the pre-flight checks, the company made a regulation that their aircraft had to be de-iced whenever the air temperature on the ground was PLUS Five degrees centigrade or lower.
This very neatly addressed the " ice, little ice " question although must have played merry hell with the company`s finances and on-time performance.
I don`t know if the procedure is still in force at SAS.
This was a fairly extreme reaction to an aircraft loss but the point is that some sort of guidlines from the companies` side should be mandatory in the industry and included in the Operations manual and SOP`s.
I believe that dispatch of an aircraft with contamination on the airframe invalidates the C.of A. and therefore the insurance so any entry in the OM would have to be worded very. very carefully.

[OceansEdge]

And I wasn't referring to places where you can get deiced at home, or in a major center, with resources and facilities, KAG. I was referring to going on a trip in pitch black dark, new moon, -5° all over the Great Slave region, where you land at Armpit, NWT, which is a 2-mile drive from the town, to medivac a critically injured patient where delay is intolerable.

Sure there are options - the least desirable of which is to wait till you can enforce the "clean" concept to the standards which we are all taught. And as for some wisecrack suggesting my failure to find a 15' ladder and do the tail as being "lazy"...regrettably that underscores your lack of familiarity with these Northern airports and the facilities available in the middle of the night. You'd be lucky enough to find a suitable broom, for God's sake!

I really hate to admit it, but sometimes, you simply do your best with what you've got at hand, then depart with a little ice.

Ghostbuster packs - any operator working in any area subject to those kind of conditions should be carrying them.

MY COM states we have a 'clean plane policy' - not a 'clean plane policy except when .....'

I've heard the argument a 1000 times - 'the guys who wrote the rules don't understand how it is out here in the real world'. But they do. And for those that didn't there were 1000's of hours of testimony at the Dryden Inquiry. Bottom line is the rules are written exactly to protect guys from having to figure out 'is it ok?, is it not ok?' IMHO ever suggesting a guy needs to figure out when and how to 'judiciously' break the rules - whether it's a CARs or a COM, is frankly irresponsible.

[Heliian]

Some people are still holding on to the past. The attitude that it's what you've been doing for centuries, you've taken off with a skating rink on your wing and can do it again, just be more cautious when flying(don't rotate too hard), all of that mentality should stop. Over the years with many statistics(your buddies died doing it) and scientific research and regulations, you should be able to make an informed judgement. If you think the ice is too much, take it off. Wing covers are magical. If you work up north, be prepared.

Just don't use a rubber mallet or a plastic spatula from the kitchen.

[Slappy the Squirrel]

You just don't rotate aggressively, you rotate with as much speed as the runway will permit, you don't pitch up like a homesick angel, and you monitor what you can see on the wings till it burns off.

I understand what you're trying to say, you're absolutely right that all aircraft CAN physically fly with some degree of ice on them, they were built for it. My problem is it is that the amount of ice an aircraft can carry is very subjective to what the pilot's opinion is. I've heard of times where a very experienced captain determined they only had "a little ice", and was able to get airborne at rotation, but couldn't climb and the plane fell and hit the ground again before it agreed to start flying again. Maybe he should have used a higher rotation speed, who knows, but how high? I can't see too many pilots I know being able to look out the window and say, "yeah, that ice looks like a Vr + 15".
My main concern is talk like this will indicate to inexperienced pilots that it is okay to fly with a little ice on the wing, yet their views on what "a little ice" may in fact be quite dangerous.

[The Old Fogducker]

Well, I must admit I'm finding this thread to make for interesting reading.

My grandfather used to tell me stories about how great it was to finally have a heated pitot tube because the wing-mounted wind vane type airspeed indicator iced up too easily. He felt that with a heated pitot, and the newly invented Turn & Bank gyro instrument which was just being introduced to the civil aviation market, aircraft had finally become capable of true "all weather flight operations."

The Old (the trip's booked, ya gotta fly) Fogducker