"There's no such thing a a little ice"

[Lost Lake]

I can empathize with what Swordfish is saying. I think this is the wrong place to state it. He has enough experience to know when it is safe and when it is not. Anyone who has had the harsh reality of flying into un-improved airports in remote places understands that life is not always fair. I've had enough experience on floats to do things low time pilots can't, won't, shouldn't do. For me it's safe. I have had my own personal experience with hoar frost on a wing. I don't take off contaminated. In a perfect world every runway is 10,000 ft long, weather stations at every airport, also an AMO, de-ice, control tower, etc.

Newbies: DO NOT FLY WITH ANY WING CONTAMINATION.
For all others, as per your experience or comfort or stupidity level allows.

[xsbank]

IMHO, if the plane belongs to you and you are alone, go ahead and fly with "a little ice" on the wings if you think that's OK. I might even encourage it.

Also IMHO, if you arrive at Armpit and you have "a little ice" and you were too feckless to take a broom or a ladder or a bucket of de-ice or wing covers, then the correct decision is, you can't go. Patient dies. Better than taking off and the aircraft, you, the FO, the flight nurse/doctor and the patient dies?

Don't you think its time in your career to take a stand against rule-breaking, even if you really don't have any common sense?

Sooner or later this "clean aircraft concept" will sink in. Let's wait and see who ignores it and kills someone this winter.

This is directed at all the "get 'er done" gang out there, and the "a little ice is OK" crowd.

[trey kule]

I was going to post earlier, but I noticed a little frost build up on my soapbox and had to go back to the parking lot and get a windshield scraper from my car.. All is fine now

I think some of us, at least myself are trying to point out that making the decision of how much ice is to much is very subjective for some and more mission dependent than areodynamically critical. It worries me when I read people posting that it is just academia posting zero tolerance. A great big, and erronous assumption that we who promote zero ice dont have any experience...and it is that same time of errounous assumption when it comes to determining that a little ice on the wings is not critical. You may be right, but if you are wrong there simply is no excuse for the bent machine or the people you hurt.

Now, because I think the humidity here is approaching 100% the temp is about zero, and if I shut up the wind will be calm, I will step down and head for the coffee pot.

good luck to all in the winter months. Hope we dont have to read a thread about an accident because you made an error in determining how much ice was OK.

[Meatservo]

I have done a lot of flying in areas where you might expect to get some ice. I'm not talking about way down south where you get the kind of ice that causes it to rain Caravans, I'm just talking about the kind where you might fire the boots after ten minutes, mostly because you think you might have lost a knot or two. Or just after coming through a 1000' stratus layer at twenty below you notice a smooth white stripe of thin white ice running down your boots that probably won't even come off if you do activate them. Then you land on a gravel strip at Wimbewegagan Swamp, or whatever, and drop of your hockey team or whatever, and get ready to go. You can't reach the tail. A broom will not chip off that smooth white stuff without denting the wings. A whole ghostbuster pack full of cabin-temperature glycol might thin it a bit at minus twenty but probably not.

Well, I know better than to tell you all what I would do, but I'll tell you this: In twenty years, I have never, and I mean NEVER, encountered a twin otter or a beech 99 or a navajo or even a Caravan sitting on a remote ramp with a small amount of trace ice on the leading edge while the pilots are wandering around trying to bum some glycol, calling company to come rescue them, or bedding down for the night because they can't fly. And I know SOME people actually do fly around with portable de-icing spray packs in the tail, or in the pod, but as many or more don't. And anyway, if you don't keep it heated, that stuff isn't much use.

I used to fly with frost on the wings: but now I don't because I realise this is inviting trouble. I don't want to teach anyone any bad habits either. I have sat on the roof of an otter on floats in light freezing drizzle while holding in a swamp in October, trying to use the brim of my baseball cap to scrape off the crusty crap so I could fly away again. Whatever it takes, I agree. But a trace of milky white, hard, smooth ice on the very leading edge of the boots? I'll let that melt off in the hangar once I get home.

[trey kule]

You know, if I was doing something that was illegal, and with the potential to bend metal or hurt people if I was wrong, I am not sure I would be bragging about it here...just saying is all.

I dont wish anyone harm, but if you just do happen to one day misjudge how much ice you have and bend some metal or hurt people, I hope you wont be one of those who feel that their guilty feelings should be punishment enough. You ignore the rules. You had better be able to take ownership of the consequences.

It is what the new pilots on this forum want to hear..That with experience you an ignore the regulations and are someone blessed with the ability to masterfully judge the amount of ice that is critical to not flying. I think I have enough years and hours in my logbooks to not be embarrassed in making the claim that I never could determine how much ice was to much...and I really hope that those of you new to commercial aviation will take to heart that the only way you can know for sure is when the wings are clean...the with experience argument simply means trying it to see , and if it works, then trying it with a little more...you can see where that will eventually lead to.

Who is right..Well if you look at the CADORS of the FAA data base you wont find any instances where pilots who insisted on clean wings crashed from contamination..Not one..What you will find is accidents by pilots who, with their vast aeronautical experience misjudged what was critical.. Please give it some thought.

And if this sounds like an old guy rant...it is..preventing a departure accident from an ice
contaminated wing is 100% preventable..

[Siddley Hawker]

Whatever it takes, I agree. But a trace of milky white, hard, smooth ice on the very leading edge of the boots? I'll let that melt off in the hangar once I get home.

Yep, me too. I once watched a -8 get de-iced with exactly that kind of trace on it. They had obviously picked it up on the approach and the airplane had flown well enough to land with it. It was -12 on the ground and about 20 kt of wind. I have no idea how many gallons of fluid they used, but they went at it for a long time.

[swordfish]

but if you just do happen to one day misjudge how much ice you have and bend some metal or hurt people, I hope you wont be one of those who feel that their guilty feelings should be punishment enough. You ignore the rules. You had better be able to take ownership of the consequences.

It is what the new pilots on this forum want to hear..That with experience you an ignore the regulations and are someone blessed with the ability to masterfully judge the amount of ice that is critical to not flying.....

The concept that pilots develop "enough experience" to "ignore the regulations" is as esoteric as flying every trip with perfectly clean critical surfaces, or without sidestepping some regulation, protocol, procedure, COM or AFM requirement somewhere, sometime.

And after a pilot has 20,000 hours flying up North, he will definitely have explored the "no such thing as a little ice" definition for the type he's flying. You descend through a layer on approach to Armpit, NWT, and you find a schmear of glazed ice on the leading edge - not even a millimetre thick. Are you going to tap and scrape that away, and risk doing damage to the boots and the leading edge, or are you going to leave it alone, knowing that it has absolutely no effect on the aerodynamics of the wing? This is a rhetorical question, btw. i.e. it doesn't have an absolute answer.

PLUS...you will ultimately determine that you don't need to have 20,000 hours to decide if it's safe to fly a plane in a certain condition. You need common sense, close examination, "some" experience, discussion, and an analysis of the variables that affect your takeoff AND and analysis of what can go wrong. AND a takeoff plan that will manage those variables successfully.

Those of you who equate this discussion to the Dryden accident, the Potomac River accident, the SAS MD80 accident...ad nauseam... either haven't got it, are simply being argumentative, or don't fully understand ALL the factors involved in those accidents.

One more thing: (this is for those who think that the top surface of a tail of a T-tail aircraft is highly critical)

The tail of an aircraft actually "flies" upside down (for want of a simple understanding of what it does). i.e the lift it develops works in the opposite direction of the main wing. Where is the logic in going to great lengths and frustration to clean off the top of a tail, when it's the underside of the tail that really matters? Why do you think manufacturers have provided guidelines in AFM's to tolerate a certain amount of frost on the underside of the main wing resulting from cold-soaking by very cold fuel in the wings?

Answer: it has negligible effect on performance. Give that some thought to your "upside-down" tailplane.

[HS-748 2A]

In this vien, have a read of the following:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... rm-305.htm

'48

[swordfish]

In this vien, have a read of the following:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/r ... rm-305.htm

What am I missing here:

A WASAYA Airways Ltd. (WASAYA) de-icing truck was available to the crew; however, the aircraft would have had to start the engines to taxi to the de-icing area as there was no tow available for the HS 748. The de-icing truck was not used.

Oooops. Nothing...the discussion thread has nothing to do with the availability of resources to assist the pilot in command with the decision to de-ice.

In the quoted link, the pilot considered it was a nuisance, and another start to move the aircraft.

And what was that about the Dryden accident...? Numerous individuals observed that there was significant ice on the wings, and nobody spoke up. That was one of Moshanksy's key findings.

My discussion neither advocates or condones apathy. It is simply a rationalization of what we are all taught: There's no such thing as a little ice.

Undoubtedly, Capt St. Germain had discovered the ambiguity of that hypothesis 'a long time ago' for his 748.

[swordfish]

you were too feckless to take a broom or a ladder or a bucket of de-ice or wing covers, then the correct decision is, you can't go. Patient dies. Better than taking off and the aircraft, you, the FO, the flight nurse/doctor and the patient dies?

Don't you think its time in your career to take a stand against rule-breaking, even if you really don't have any common sense?

You need to re-read my comments in this thread, xsbank. If you have the resources available, there is no reason whatsoever not to utilize them.

btw....the "bucket of deice" has to be at 60°C to do its job properly as we are taught. Try that in Armpit, NWT, then re-read Siddley Hawker's comments on deicing the Dash 8 at -12°

[xsbank]

I don't know, the older I get the narrower I define when its "good to go." Perhaps the boots should be waxed more often, perhaps if there's a trip that you know will result in ice, you shouldn't go? Perhaps if you DO get ice, you should fly home alone? I don't know the answer, other than taking the narrow definition and only flying clean and therefore not being a test-pilot with passengers and cojo on board.

I've packed enough ice in my time, but never again. Period.

[KK7]

I'm not going to argue one way or another in this poop throwing contest, but I'd be interested in hearing some answers out there to a few questions. Keep in mind that this whole discussion came about from a post about a new Captain about to start flying up north.

So without rejecting or condoning anything, we talk about a lot of vague notions here, like what "a little" ice is, and needing "some" or "enough" experience to be able to judge what's acceptable or not. How could this be quantified for someone new? When does one know they have enough experience to judge the amount of ice on their wings? Where exactly is that line where a little ice becomes a little more ice? Could an experienced Captain tell someone he/she is training when it becomes too much?

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

As I said I'm not going to take any position here. But there are a lot of young, new, impressionable pilots on this forum who take what a lot of guys who speak the big talk here as gospel. I think these are the questions they would have in their mind and would be interested in hearing.

[Doc]

I try not to post here anymore, but the subject of "ice" is very near to my heart.
In my book, ice falls into several categories. One, I shall call "political" ice. This is the thin white film that is often seen on the leading edges of aircraft after flight. It has no effect on the performance of an aircraft. This is the type of ice TC, FSS etc. so like to point fingers at on ramps all over the north. This is the type of ice that most often leads to enforcement action.
Another is ground contamination. The Caravan that so tragically claimed the life of a woman a few years back in the YWG area, suffered from this type of ice. As did the overloaded, ice covered Caravan that departed Pelee Island, bounced it's way through the snow, killing all on board. This ice is speculative ice. I say this, because by the time it's brought to anybody's attention, it's long departed the fix.
Next, we have the "Holly SHIT, am I lucky not to have killed myself..." contaminated wing ice. This ice, we flew with, when we were young, and immortal. Some of us KNOW how much ice it'll take to scare the crap out of ourselves. Others just THINK they know. Take my advice.....it's all BAD!
Now, the subject of this thread in the first place. "A Little Ice"....That's when you get some, shall we say, "colour" on the leading edges during an inflight encounter with ice. Most often, it's rime. But It could be just a smattering of freezing drizzle. Freezing drizzle, BTW is an indication that you should execute the U-turn....right now...because....
It quickly can become "moderate" ice. The U-turn should have already been performed, but if it hasn't, your "moderate" will quickly become "bad" ice. Your airspeed will begin to bleed off. Your ass will start to munch on your seat, and a whole bunch of unhappy feelings will start to manifest themselves into your thoughts.
Now, in our happy, politically mandated world, ice is always bad. There is no "good" ice....or should I say, "light" ice? Sure there is. But treating it all as "bad" we can save ourselves tons of trouble and heart ache with ourselves, our companies and enforcement......so.....bottom line? KEEP IT CLEAN....
Fly safe.
Back to lurking.

[OceansEdge]

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

My general feeling is - it's time to put in a call to your CP, that's a large part of what he's there for - and honestly - if you think he's gonna be part of 'the company pressuring them to go' when you have doubts, he's probably not someone you want to be working for. The CP should be available to lend advice, a hand, or back up to any pilot in his crew - not just the new ones - when they're not sure, have doubts, are in a bind.

[KK7]

Now to somewhat answer my own questions!

I've done my share of bending the rules in a few areas. However the more experienced I get in AGE, I fine the less risk I am willing to take when it comes to these activities, and the more I stand up to outside sources of pressure. Now that I have a family that depends on me and my presence, I have very little interest in bending rules anymore. Likewise, I observe that those pilots around me that are more experienced age-wise and hours wise, are less willing than most on here to do things like buzzing and taking off with a "little" ice.

Maybe this is because they've been there done that, or maybe they've scared themselves eventually, or maybe they lost a friend doing something similar, or maybe they learned that it's not worth it... and the list goes on... I don't know, maybe it's a combination of all of them. But the point
I'm trying to make here is that people speak of needing experience to know where to draw the line in having "a little" ice, but I see that the wise older pilots accept nothing but a pristine aircraft. When these folks get cornered and accept the increased risk, they no doubt let it be known just how uncomfortable they are the whole flight. This makes me wonder, is it only younger guys taking the risk?

As per what to do when you get stuck in a bad situation, my main answer to that is it is best to plan ahead, and try to always have enough forethought to see what problems might occur. Bring the equipment you need, find out what's at the airport you're going to, and be aware of the situation around you. Easier said than done, but this comes with experience. Secondly, although not actually very common, use your common sense. Rather than convincing those around you that something is okay to do, ask their opinion and take it into consideration when making your decision. It's okay to change your mind.

Anyways, I look forward to others answers.

[swordfish]

DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

Nothing here is gospel, absolute, concrete, scientific, or in any other way, defining, or a basis of decision making.

It's a discussion to encourage pilots to think about what they're taught in academics training rooms, then take that out into the real world, where a lot of the things they are taught must be applied as guidelines, or cannot be applied at all. The concept that There's no such thing as a little ice, or even the When In Doubt theory (i.e. you first have to find there IS doubt, then ponder the ramifications) is drilled into us year after year so that non-thinking automatons will conclude a plane cannot fly with a little ice on it - and will subsequently fall out of the sky, crash, and everyone will be killed - is what they are aiming for.

I encourage you to consider what the statement means, then try to rationalize that in a real-world situation.

I am "living" testament that there IS such a thing as a little ice. But where the boundary is between a little and a more than a little cannot be defined scientifically.

i.e. there are no concrete non-self-incriminating answers to your questions.

[Doc]

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

My general feeling is - it's time to put in a call to your CP, that's a large part of what he's there for - and honestly - if you think he's gonna be part of 'the company pressuring them to go' when you have doubts, he's probably not someone you want to be working for. The CP should be available to lend advice, a hand, or back up to any pilot in his crew - not just the new ones - when they're not sure, have doubts, are in a bind.

With all due respect. The CP isn't there. He's not the one who'll get violated if someone in the "know" calls our young Captain on it. Here is where some knowledge, and common sense has to kick in. By the time someone is a Captain on a Dash, hopefully he'll be able to accurately determine whether or not the leading ice is, or will be a factor.(Hell, you flew it with that leading edge ice. You flew an approach, a landing. How did it handle? Any problems?) As described, the ice would not be a factor. On the bright side, if he's in the far north, the ice won't be visible to the FSS unit. If he were a smart lad, he will have parked on an angle to make the "ice" invisible from the buildings? As described, I'd just get in 'er and go.

[xsbank]

Hi Doc!

There is a nice presentation on icing on the Bombardier website, I'll see if I can find it. I posted it here before but maybe some here might like a refresher.

http://www.batraining.com/eLearning/Fre ... efault.asp

[OceansEdge]

Next question is, let's say we have a new Captain flying up north in say, a DASH-8, and they wish to follow the clean aircraft concept to the letter. They land in B.F.N. with an unexpected trace amount of ice on the very front of the leading edge, and no tools available to clean it off. What do they do then? Wait? What if there is nowhere warm to wait, and it's not going to melt on its own until several months later? What do they do when the company is pressuring them to go?

My general feeling is - it's time to put in a call to your CP, that's a large part of what he's there for - and honestly - if you think he's gonna be part of 'the company pressuring them to go' when you have doubts, he's probably not someone you want to be working for. The CP should be available to lend advice, a hand, or back up to any pilot in his crew - not just the new ones - when they're not sure, have doubts, are in a bind.

With all due respect. The CP isn't there. He's not the one who'll get violated if someone in the "know" calls our young Captain on it. Here is where some knowledge, and common sense has to kick in. By the time someone is a Captain on a Dash, hopefully he'll be able to accurately determine whether or not the leading ice is, or will be a factor.(Hell, you flew it with that leading edge ice. You flew an approach, a landing. How did it handle? Any problems?) As described, the ice would not be a factor. On the bright side, if he's in the far north, the ice won't be visible to the FSS unit. If he were a smart lad, he will have parked on an angle to make the "ice" invisible from the buildings? As described, I'd just get in 'er and go.

Just suggesting that for the new Captain in the scenario as presented - guy who isn't sure - CP is probably the person you want holding your hand and walking you through it. You're right - he should have the good sense and experience by the time he gets that stripe, and chances are he does, but I've seen situations where a Captain on his first flight in the big left chair was faced with some challenging decisions to make. I hope as his Dispatcher I helped him make good ones (would seem so as he's chief pilot now *grins*), but anyone in that position can, and in some cases I hope, would have some niggling doubts - sometimes it just takes having your suspicions, concerns, conclusions reaffirmed - CP would be the guy to do that. And any CP worth his salt knows all of the above - and is gonna reaffirm that too - it's part of the leadership roll. It's what I would expect from my superiors.

[Doc]

Just suggesting that for the new Captain in the scenario as presented - guy who isn't sure - CP is probably the person you want holding your hand and walking you through it. You're right - he should have the good sense and experience by the time he gets that stripe, and chances are he does, but I've seen situations where a Captain on his first flight in the big left chair was faced with some challenging decisions to make. I hope as his Dispatcher I helped him make good ones (would seem so as he's chief pilot now *grins*), but anyone in that position can, and in some cases I hope, would have some niggling doubts - sometimes it just takes having your suspicions, concerns, conclusions reaffirmed - CP would be the guy to do that. And any CP worth his salt knows all of the above - and is gonna reaffirm that too - it's part of the leadership roll. It's what I would expect from my superiors.

What would you suggest his CP uses to base HIS decision on? I fail to see how a dispatcher would be of any help. By the time a guy is in the "big left chair" ( try to be a little less condescending in the future, Okay?) he shouldn't need anybody "holding his hand" (unless things have really gone for a crap in the last few years?) or he shouldn't be in the "big left chair" in the first place. Sometimes decisions have to made by the PIC. You do know, that it is HIS call, do you not? I'd be interested in knowing what decisions, you as a dispatcher, have helped these captains make? I'll make my own decisions, thank you. After discussing the situations with other CREW members, of course.
In an airplane the size of a DASH, there is quite a lengthy period of line indoc before a captain is "on his own", hopefully with a little common sense as to his first journeys. And, during his first few trips, he is hopefully paired with a very experienced FO. Unless of course, things have changed?

[OceansEdge]

What would you suggest his CP uses to base HIS decision on? I fail to see how a dispatcher would be of any help. By the time a guy is in the "big left chair" ( try to be a little less condescending in the future, Okay?) he shouldn't need anybody "holding his hand" (unless things have really gone for a crap in the last few years?) or he shouldn't be in the "big left chair" in the first place. Sometimes decisions have to made by the PIC. You do know, that it is HIS call, do you not? I'd be interested in knowing what decisions, you as a dispatcher, have helped these captains make? I'll make my own decisions, thank you. After discussing the situations with other CREW members, of course.
In an airplane the size of a DASH, there is quite a lengthy period of line indoc before a captain is "on his own", hopefully with a little common sense as to his first journeys. And, during his first few trips, he is hopefully paired with a very experienced FO. Unless of course, things have changed?

I'm sorry - there was no condescension meant. Really.

I'm not anywhere stating, implying, or advocating - that the decision is anyone else's but his. I do find it interesting that you'll make your decision after discussing it with other crew members but not your dispatcher? As for what decisions I've helped others to make - 1000's - that's the whole concept and precipe behind co-authority. Over the years I've seen a lot of times when a captain - new or experienced - has wanted to hash over a situation - whether icing, weather, mechanical, or otherwise with someone who's experience and knowledge he trusts. Yes, the decision is HIS alone at that juncture, but that doesn't preclude him seeking out a knowledgeable 2nd opinion - whether it's his FO his CP or me. I'm sorry if my suggesting that has put your nose out of joint.

[jjj]

Doc - you beat me to it!

"Political Ice," is a term I have been using for years.

My little 737 can do a single-engine go-around in icing at max landing weight. My little '37 is also without any anti-ice/de-ice capability on the out board slats, leading edge flaps, and the whole of my tail.

Yet this morning I took over a plane with about an 1/8th of an inch of clear ice on the outboard leading edges and couldn't see so much as a trace on the tail. De-iced we did, not because it was safer, but only because you never know who's looking.

JJJ

[Brown Bear]

I'm sorry - there was no condescension meant. Really.

I'm not anywhere stating, implying, or advocating - that the decision is anyone else's but his. I do find it interesting that you'll make your decision after discussing it with other crew members but not your dispatcher? As for what decisions I've helped others to make - 1000's - that's the whole concept and precipe behind co-authority. Over the years I've seen a lot of times when a captain - new or experienced - has wanted to hash over a situation - whether icing, weather, mechanical, or otherwise with someone who's experience and knowledge he trusts. Yes, the decision is HIS alone at that juncture, but that doesn't preclude him seeking out a knowledgeable 2nd opinion - whether it's his FO his CP or me. I'm sorry if my suggesting that has put your nose out of joint.

I don't think a pilot is going to call a dispatcher over the question of whether or not he should launch with a trace of ice on the leading edges. Are you really expecting to asked for your opinion on that? I doubt very much his nose is in any way, out of joint. Seems yours is though? Let us in on where you work, or at least what kind of equipment you dispatch. In what part of the world? Seriously, in the scenario mentioned, how would the dispatcher have the experience, or knowledge to offer an informed opinion.

[square]

LOL, there is no airport so far north that it can't be fitted with a LADDER and BROOM! The only reason they're absent is an absence of common sense and balls on your own part. A pilot so timid that he can't ask for that equipment, AND a pressure bottle of de-ice fluid ought to go back down south. I know it takes some muscle to de-ice with a broom but if you're shying away from that you could use the workout anyway.

[square]

but if you just do happen to one day misjudge how much ice you have and bend some metal or hurt people, I hope you wont be one of those who feel that their guilty feelings should be punishment enough. You ignore the rules. You had better be able to take ownership of the consequences.

It is what the new pilots on this forum want to hear..That with experience you an ignore the regulations and are someone blessed with the ability to masterfully judge the amount of ice that is critical to not flying.....

The concept that pilots develop "enough experience" to "ignore the regulations" is as esoteric as flying every trip with perfectly clean critical surfaces, or without sidestepping some regulation, protocol, procedure, COM or AFM requirement somewhere, sometime.

And after a pilot has 20,000 hours flying up North, he will definitely have explored the "no such thing as a little ice" definition for the type he's flying. You descend through a layer on approach to Armpit, NWT, and you find a schmear of glazed ice on the leading edge - not even a millimetre thick. Are you going to tap and scrape that away, and risk doing damage to the boots and the leading edge, or are you going to leave it alone, knowing that it has absolutely no effect on the aerodynamics of the wing? This is a rhetorical question, btw. i.e. it doesn't have an absolute answer.

PLUS...you will ultimately determine that you don't need to have 20,000 hours to decide if it's safe to fly a plane in a certain condition. You need common sense, close examination, "some" experience, discussion, and an analysis of the variables that affect your takeoff AND and analysis of what can go wrong. AND a takeoff plan that will manage those variables successfully.

Those of you who equate this discussion to the Dryden accident, the Potomac River accident, the SAS MD80 accident...ad nauseam... either haven't got it, are simply being argumentative, or don't fully understand ALL the factors involved in those accidents.

One more thing: (this is for those who think that the top surface of a tail of a T-tail aircraft is highly critical)

The tail of an aircraft actually "flies" upside down (for want of a simple understanding of what it does). i.e the lift it develops works in the opposite direction of the main wing. Where is the logic in going to great lengths and frustration to clean off the top of a tail, when it's the underside of the tail that really matters? Why do you think manufacturers have provided guidelines in AFM's to tolerate a certain amount of frost on the underside of the main wing resulting from cold-soaking by very cold fuel in the wings?

Answer: it has negligible effect on performance. Give that some thought to your "upside-down" tailplane.

Clap clap! We're all real impressed with what a bush hero you are, but what is the point of this?

Starting a thread to advocate take-off with iced-up surfaces on a public forum for aviation enthusiasts?

What the hell's wrong with you?