G3 wrote:Nearing the end of 2010 with all of the accumulated, documented scientific data of contamination and its adverse effects on flying surfaces and the anectdotal evidence in ice related crashes, I am astounded that this conversation is even taking place. Quite frankly, it is concerning.
Just remember:"The problem with ice is, it melts in the post crash fire"
Very clearly stated G3.
One of the aspects of aviation that confounds me is the audacity some pilots have to believe that after tooling around in the bush for a few seasons, they've come to the conclusion they know more about an aircraft than the people who designed and built it, and the Engineering Test Pilots that flew it on data gathering proving flights.
And just to return to the basic purpose of the thread ... this is what to tell somebody new to the turboprop world about being a Captain ... in 2010 me telling him he doesn't need anything more than a Turn & Bank, and a heated pitot like my grandfather did in the 1930's would be worse than foolhardy.
If I were to tell him to fly with a contaminated wing in 2010 as a part of company training, that act would place me in a very precarious position were I his employer.
It should be taught in ground school..Here is a old guys story.
Many moons ago when I started flying and planes like DC3s and DC4s were the workhorses of the fleet and not rarities, it was up to the captain to decide. And we did. But with time most of us realized three things. 1. We wernt all that smart..We were lucky. 2. You only had to be unlucky just once. You could get away with it hundreds of times, but it only took once to hurt people. and 3. If the critical surfaces are 100% clean it was rather easy to make the decision. There were accidents where the plane probably could have made it but something else popped up to affect the equation. A bit of power loss from carb ice. A burp in one of the engines..the kind of oops things like when buzz jobs go wrong.
TC , after looking at the accidents, I believe, pretty much came to the same conclusions. So they made it easy for pilots..Clean wing concept..Simple. You dont have to call the CP. Dont have to think about go/no go or apply your extensive fantasy knowledge of the conditions.
History has proven that some of these types , every year, hurt and kill people because they just werent as knowlegable or smart as they thought they were.
They could simplify groundschool..no wink wink nudge nudge, we know it can fly with "a little bit of ice". Wing contamination is a no go item. And while that may prove inconvenient at times it truely does, or at least should relieve any pressure on pilots. We all know from experience that planes accumulate ice while flying occassionally. But for the most part that is unavoidable and why we have anti/de- ice on board equipment. When the plane is on the ground however, wing contamination is not , or should not ever be an issue before take off.
The call the CP idea blows me away. What is the CP going to say????...if there is contamination you dont go.get it cleaned off. Figure out a way to do that..Do you really have to call to ask that?
Or maybe they will ask you what you think so they will be able to try and excuse their spinelessness if there is an accident by saying..."well it was the Captains decsion"
I can tell you what my response is to a call like that..."you had better be calling me to ask for help in figuring out how to de ice the old bird ,or deal with some owly pax. If your calling to ask for a go/no decision with contamination, we will be having a chat in my office when you get back."
As to all those who think they can ignore the regulations based on their experience and rationalize things...remember...you only have to be wrong once Just once.And you will have the rest of your life to live with the fact you willfully hurt people.
Enough ranting from an old guy
Simple. No pressure at all.
---------- ADS -----------
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
It should be taught in ground school..Here is a old guys story.
Many moons ago when I started flying and planes like DC3s and DC4s were the workhorses of the fleet and not rarities, it was up to the captain to decide. And we did. But with time most of us realized three things. 1. We wernt all that smart..We were lucky. 2. You only had to be unlucky just once. You could get away with it hundreds of times, but it only took once to hurt people. and 3. If the critical surfaces are 100% clean it was rather easy to make the decision. There were accidents where the plane probably could have made it but something else popped up to affect the equation. A bit of power loss from carb ice. A burp in one of the engines..the kind of oops things like when buzz jobs go wrong.
TC , after looking at the accidents, I believe, pretty much came to the same conclusions. So they made it easy for pilots..Clean wing concept..Simple. You dont have to call the CP. Dont have to think about go/no go or apply your extensive fantasy knowledge of the conditions.
History has proven that some of these types , every year, hurt and kill people because they just werent as knowlegable or smart as they thought they were.
They could simplify groundschool..no wink wink nudge nudge, we know it can fly with "a little bit of ice". Wing contamination is a no go item. And while that may prove inconvenient at times it truely does, or at least should relieve any pressure on pilots. We all know from experience that planes accumulate ice while flying occassionally. But for the most part that is unavoidable and why we have anti/de- ice on board equipment. When the plane is on the ground however, wing contamination is not , or should not ever be an issue before take off.
The call the CP idea blows me away. What is the CP going to say????...if there is contamination you dont go.get it cleaned off. Figure out a way to do that..Do you really have to call to ask that?
Or maybe they will ask you what you think so they will be able to try and excuse their spinelessness if there is an accident by saying..."well it was the Captains decsion"
I can tell you what my response is to a call like that..."you had better be calling me to ask for help in figuring out how to de ice the old bird ,or deal with some owly pax. If your calling to ask for a go/no decision with contamination, we will be having a chat in my office when you get back."
As to all those who think they can ignore the regulations based on their experience and rationalize things...remember...you only have to be wrong once Just once.And you will have the rest of your life to live with the fact you willfully hurt people.
Enough ranting from an old guy
Simple. No pressure at all.
---------- ADS -----------
Accident speculation:
Those that post don’t know. Those that know don’t post
swordfish wrote:
The thread has described how impossible and impracticable that is in many Northern locations:
There aren't resources such as ladders, brooms, spray bottles trucks, et al...except what you carry yourself!
There is either no DI fluid, or it's too cold to be of ANY use whatsoever.
Tall ladders are dangerous, and IMHO unnecessary to do the top of the tail if you only have traces of stuff there.
How do you clean the plane when there is a lot of ice... or is a lot just a little more than a little, so still just a little ice?
If there's "more than a little", you taxi it to your nearest CDIF and get a spray.
So the then I guess your comment about how impossible and impracticable it is to de-ice in the North is just a little off.
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We have no effective screening methods to make sure pilots are sane.
— Dr. Herbert Haynes, Federal Aviation Authority.
Swordfish.....your opinions are arrogant, unappropriate, and lack true airmanship. Its "Captains" (I use that term loosely) like you who contribute to the overall downfall of this industry, which is believed to be of a professional nature.
I hope that God will forgive you for nonchalantly toying with peoples lives.
