Our NEED To Know

[Doc]

This latest tragedy at Seneca College brings to mind, the pilot's inbred sense of "what happened". It's in all of us. I think it's a healthy, if you will weakness, in our make up.
Now, I've never even had a ride in a "BO" so I wouldn't even begin to speculate as to what went wrong.
This is not the time, and this is not my intention.
However, as an industry, we do NEED to know the cause of this tragedy.
The "need to know" is often misinterpreted as being insensitive towards those involved, particularly when lives are lost.
I know I'll be watching this very closely over the next few weeks. We all "need" to know....
My thoughts are very much with everybody at the college.

[Brize]

As they grieve, the families will need to know most of all. I really hope that they ultimately will.
The need to know why will also rest with those who will walk the same path of the ones who lost their lives.
I can hardly blame any of their impatience.

[KK7]

The NEED to know provides closure for families, friends, colleagues. I think the pilot community as a whole is close enough that we all require a little closure even if we didn't know these pilots personally. I realize we are all fallible, and what ever happened in this accident or any other, could happen to any of us... We can all relate to the terrifying experience this crew must have felt. I also think most pilots know that there is always something to learn in one's mistakes, whether it be our own or others. There is always something more to learn.

So far with the Seneca crash thread, I've been impressed that no speculation of what happened has started, and I hope it stays that way.

[Lurch]

So far with the Seneca crash thread, I've been impressed that no speculation of what happened has started, and I hope it stays that way.

I concur

I watched the video and once the shock and sadness passed I started looking for clues as to what could have happened.



Lurch

[ScudRunner]

KK7 there is a time and place for speculation. We all hate news like this but if something can be learned why is that a faux pas on Avcanada? I agree its not proper on the thread but splice it off like XYZ issues with ABC type aircraft, or this one time at band camp kinda deal.

I know a lot of people hate speculating on this forum, I think its a great learning tool. How many times after an accident has someone said XYZ may have been a factor. Gets you thinking about your operation and maybe you learn a thing or two, a lot of new pilots are on here and it may start the olde grey matter up even if its proven in the end it was not the cause of the accident in question. You may have just saved a guy operating a similar aircraft or in a similar situation just by speaking up on something you have learned. And now that the final report out is say XXX caused it, well you just learned two things that may help save your bacon.

[teacher]

+1 "."

I have no problems with speculating at all as long as it's done in a respectful manor and in the appropriate thread/place. Like it was mentioned above the truth will eventually come out but until than healthy and respectful speculating can help us all learn. Take the Colgan accident for instance, lots of folks learned alot about tail plane stall (like myself) even though it had nothing to do with the actual event.

[KK7]

KK7 there is a time and place for speculation. We all hate news like this but if something can be learned why is that a faux pas on Avcanada?

Because we have zero facts. The specifics are not usually released to the public until the accident investigation is complete. More often than not speculation leads to finger pointing, mudslinging and so on... all without a single confirmed fact. IMO it's no different than the media getting their "aviation experts" to start speculating about totally pointless stuff. If you want to speculate, get the facts and go work for the TSB.

If facts are available, then that is totally different. Then one can speculate, but as you say there is a time and place for it.

[Brize]

I beg to differ, a few facts are already coming to light. Zero, would be a great exaggeration to make a point sound more important.

[Hedley]

Unless you fly a Bonanza, and are thus concerned about mechanical or electrical problems stemming from the design and manufacture of that particular aircraft which might affect your aircraft ...

I don't really understand how anyone's intense (but brief and fickle) interest in this accident is anything but prurient.

For example, no one is interested (any more) in the fatal accident of the Cherokee over Algonquin Park who's report was just released. Lots to learn there, but no ghoulish interest in it any more. There was considerable interest and speculation in that accident a year ago here when it was fresh and trendy, but none now.

Very illuminating as to the psyche of people around here.

There are plenty of accidents in aviation that were made a long time ago, that you can learn from, if that's what really motivates you. Rarely is there a new, original cause for an aircraft accident.

[mattedfred]

^totally agree

[Old Dog Flying]

Learn from the mistakes of others...you won't live long enough to make them all yourself!

[ScudRunner]

And there is the problem Hedley, the reports come out many months sometimes years later. In the mean time should we all be kept in the dark and not learn anything because speculating is Avcanada Faux Pas? intelligent discussion and debate should always be welcomed, there is mud slingin that is just par for Avcanada it is unfortunate but the mods usually take care of it. I and other read the reports and learn the facts when posted, However searching the TSB reports is not a regular thing as it is an irregular reporting system. If pilots come on here and are interested in learning something about a recent accident strike while its fresh in the mind you may have just saved a life or enlightened a pilot to an issue they may not have been aware of. Sure there are many accident reports out but they do get over looked or forgotten if you can highlight a similar accident and someone learns from it by seeking information on a recent accident we are all better for it.

When a report comes out many on here post it in the old thread concerning the accident, some theories or speculation is proven to be fact others not so but in the mean time some pilots have learned something even from the incorrect speculation. The more brains working together and discussing an accident is a good thing and should not be shouted down, I will end reiterating intelligent discussion and speculation should be welcomed.

[Doc]

When a report comes out many on here post it in the old thread concerning the accident, some theories or speculation is proven to be fact others not so but in the mean time some pilots have learned something even from the incorrect speculation. The more brains working together and discussing an accident is a good thing and should not be shouted down, I will end reiterating intelligent discussion and speculation should be welcomed.

Very well put, my good ... Even incorrect speculation is a wonderful learning tool. It opens our eyes to all the "possibilities" thus making us aware of them.

[. ._]

Interesting point, Hedley.

I don't even know where to find that info if I wanted it. A quick google search gives me nothing.

Maybe we could have a forum for that here with a sticky link to the proper website. It might be an appropriate place to discuss the facts of an accident.

-istp

[trey kule]

I am with Hedley on this issue for a variety of reasons:

The problem is that most people nowadays have very short attention spans and want their information "now".
So they dont wait for facts. They just gossip like two old cleaning women over the garden fence. And they justify it by claiming it is a learning experience , Hogwash.
If people really wanted to learn they would be patient and wait until all the facts are in and then see what they can learn from it. We all have to make decisions everyday without having all the available information, but in these cases, there is simply no need to do that. Seldom is there a need to learn a lesson immediately after an accident or incident.
Also, the tone of the speculation:For example...read the CF 18 crash posts.. Tell me what was to be learned from some mean spirited little ignorant snot posting about the SAR response time. No facts. and completely in error..What could be learned other then not to give that poster any credability.

Need to know....sure...but not while the dust is still settling...

[Brown Bear]

trey, are you not worried about what happens between an incident happening, and the Government's "cleaned up" version of the occurrence? There is something to be said about "striking while the iron is hot" so to speak. During the year or two wait for "all the facts", we could have had a repeat or two? I can think of a couple of examples (trees hit on overshoot, etc.)where I haven't seen the "official" report....yet?
Thoughts?

[trey kule]

I understand there are cases...I think I used the phrase "seldom are there" but they are the exception, and while the exception proves the rule..it is not the rule.

But many many of the posts we see are not based on any facts... and they seem, at least to me, to be more of a here is my theory, than this is what I have learned thing. But maybe that is just my interpretation.

I am not sure if I agree with your claim that the govt's reports are sanitized...at least not in the majority of cases, but that is a subjective opinion on my part. I am sure you have facts that back up your claim.

[KK7]

trey, are you not worried about what happens between an incident happening, and the Government's "cleaned up" version of the occurrence?

Although this situation is very unfortunate, and surely there is something to be learned once the facts are out and the investigation is complete, Bonanzas are not and have not been raining down out of the sky. Don't tell me you guys don't know what a knee jerk reaction is?

[cncpc]

I am a program coordinator involved in setting up a new college aviation program. When we commence operations, I would certainly like to have the best information available as soon as possible in order that we can look at our own operations to see if we are similarly at risk. Is an aviation forum the best place to gain that information? Probably not. I hear what Hedley has to say, and I hear those who say we need to know as soon as possible. Suppose the balance is somewhere in between.

We do have an aircraft with a previous runaway trim issue, have a radar return showing a 300 foot unanticipated climb accompanied by a "stand by" and the aircraft then disappearing from radar. It appears to have struck the ground at very high speed some distance away from where the wreckage was found. Whatever happened so occupied the pilots that they were unable to make another transmission.

I would think that whatever the problem was it resulted in a departure from normal flight and the pilots were fully occupied in dealing with that to the point of impact.

Not a whole lot of speculation in any of that, and those observations may well be part of the TSB's when their report comes out. I'm sure I'm not the only one to have made them already.


Most importantly, though, a terrible tragedy. Sympathies to all affected.

[L1011]

We do have an aircraft with a previous runaway trim issue

As far as I know, the electric trims were disabled on all aircraft after that issue.

[bizjets101]

We have a high velocity accident, at a steep angle, and TSB confirmed today that the flaps were in 'neutral' position.

Click Here for previous cadors for C-GSCZ from June 21/09 in regards to crew experiencing runaway trim.

[Brown Bear]

We do have an aircraft with a previous runaway trim issue

As far as I know, the electric trims were disabled on all aircraft after that issue.

Disabled? Or removed? I've had clutch problems occur in aircraft with the electric "disabled" due to the removal of the auto-pilot. Very frightening scenario. Not speculating in any way however. Scary thought, just the same. Air Canada (TCA?) lost a DC8 in the very early 60's near Montreal due to a trim runaway.

[Brown Bear]

trey, are you not worried about what happens between an incident happening, and the Government's "cleaned up" version of the occurrence?

Although this situation is very unfortunate, and surely there is something to be learned once the facts are out and the investigation is complete, Bonanzas are not and have not been raining down out of the sky. Don't tell me you guys don't know what a knee jerk reaction is?

I'm sorry if my remark was taken to be in reference to the Bonanza. It certainly was not. I'm just tired of seeing "many contributing factors" quoted by government reports. I'm usually interested in the "nitty-gritty" cause of an accident. The final "straw that broke the camel's back" if you will. I'm talking in generalities here...not about a specific accident.

[SunWuKong]

Again a very interesting thread. I liked Hedley's post.
In general, the unadmited purpose of most of the comments on this website (or any aviation website!) speaking about a crash is to indirectly prove how much the one who make comments are smart, how it would have never happened to them, and to remind them how much they should be happy to see they are part of the "good" group, the one who managed to stay alive (or haven't done a deadly mistake). Of course this is not directly written like that in the comments, but we don't need a master degree in literature to distinguish irony, cynicism or lack of neutrality and respect behind text.

Most of the time I find us (the pilot community observing somebody else crash) failing to find the boundary between being unpolite, arrogant, voyeuristic AND being an official investigator who will make recommendation like emplementing a GPWS for example.

We have to be extremely, extremely, extremely cautious when we speak about crash, and when we do, it shouldn't be in order to feed the media world who is passionnate (sick) about aviation crash (but much less about what really kills people in the real life). Commenting on somedy's crash for the pretended sake of safety when the bodies involved are not even cold yet, whilst precisely the priority should be toward the hurt, injured, dead individuals could turn us in very bad gossip person far away from any interesting and useful investigation, far away from helping anybody but its big ego.

Let's don't fool ourselves about to the real nature of our internet forum comments when it comes to aviation crash.

[MCB]

We have a high velocity accident, at a steep angle, and TSB confirmed today that the flaps were in 'neutral' position.

Click Here for previous cadors for C-GSCZ from June 21/09 in regards to crew experiencing runaway trim.

Where did you get this information from TSB? I've heard of other things in regards to this accident coming from them too, but have not seen them released anywhere