Calling taxiing on 126.7 at uncontrolled airports?

[Slick_Rick]

Hi all, just trying to get some feedback on what peoples opinions are about stating intentions on 126.7 as well as the ATF or MF if it is not monitored prior to take off.

I feel it is good airmanship to make this brief call stating where you are and where you are going ( 5 seconds tops)on 126.7 as well as the MF/ATF. With the speeds and amount of aircraft operating in say northern regions I feel transports "grey" guidance on uncontrolled procedures is out of touch with what’s going on. There is such a wide range of accepted procedures out there that I feel it is leaving some gaps in safety relying on the big sky theory to keep people apart.

I also feel that making that advisory call on 126.7 before taking off isn’t tying up the frequency much seeing as you are on the ground and only people in the vicinity will hear the call, you’re not up at FL 200 making silly position reports that are being broadcast over 2 provinces. It is just one more opportunity at a key phase of the game when your about to take off to let people know your coming up in case your call on the mf was stepped on or they missed the call because say someone in the other plane sneezed when you called taxiing. I hear guys all the time only call airborne on 126.7 when they are climbing through 3-4000 feet, its lazy radioman ship.

I’m all about being clean and concise on the radio, I don’t agree with calling final on 126.7 especially when its VFR or even downwind there isn’t in my opinion much of a benefit from this, but I think taxiing for take off should be made.

I'd like to hear some other people’s opinions on the matter, especially those operating in the busy northern regions of Canada, also if anyone has any links as to what the regs say because I’m having a hell of a time finding them.

Thank You

[KK7]

The only thing I could find about this is in the AIM, but does not provide much guidance other than the calls you should make on the airport's ATF/MF:
http://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/p ... .htm#4-5-5

I don't see any problem with your procedure though.

Personally, I'd transmit only on the ATF until after take off, while monitoring 126.7 on the second radio. Once clear of the circuit above 1000', switch to making position reports on 126.7 and monitor the ATF for inbound traffic until you're well clear of the area.

[Slick_Rick]

Thanks for the reply, what region are you flying in?

[Janszoon]

You must work for Tindi. They seem to be the only ones in the north who do this on a regular basis. I don't have a problem with it, but don't see the need. It's only stated in the regs that you need to make a 126.7 call after departure from an MF/ATF, while leaving the zone. I'd like to trust that when people are flying inside an MF/ATF area, say 5 miles and 3000 feet AGL, that they would at least be on the MF/ATF frequency.

[Slick_Rick]

No, not Tindi,

Here is the scenario, I would make my call on 67 10 min out then say a few minutes later on the MF and monitor those 2 until calling final, but say there was a lot of chatter on 67 and I missed the person call taxiing for the A/P I was landing. The way the timing would work out I could be turning final at the airport or entering the zone clipping along at a descent pace and I wouldn’t here the traffic until we were both inside the zone and airborne, possibly using opposite runways and things could get pretty close. Now if a quick call was made on both frequencies the chances of missing a call would be greatly reduced and the only downside to the second call would be some increased radio traffic on 67 within a very small area surrounding the airport seeing as the broadcast was made from the ground. I just feel that with a lot of atfs getting so busy and a/c speeds getting so much faster that why not take this extra opportunity to ensure and extra layer of safety

[corroded_camshaft]

I fly out of an uncontrolled airport and I must say, I find nothing more annoying and absolutely useless than ground calls. For three main reasons:

1. If the airport is busy, we dont want these calls tying up the frequency. Someone calling final or other circuit traffic is way more important than someone saying they are taxing from a taxiway to the apron. Or worst yet, like I've heard before... "taxing from my parking spot to the pumps". Spotting a plane in the air can be hard. If you're taxing (at relatively slow speeds) on the ground and you cant spot another plane in front of you... I dont want to see you on the roads!

2. If the airport isnt busy, who is listening to your call anyways? Probably no one, so why bother?

3. Uncontrolled airports are NORDO/RONLY friendly, so if you're of the mentality to broadcast everything and rely on listening for others broadcasting, and you find it annoying when you spot someone you havent heard on the radio, maybe you shouldn't be operating in uncontrolled in the first place.

The airport I fly out of can be very busy at times, sometimes with 4+ planes in the circuit and several on the ground and inbound. No one cares about taxi calls. We all have eyes we can use to SEE other traffic. And really... if you cant SEE someone on the taxiway, you got bigger problems.

Personally, I broadcast my calls with regards to approaching/leaving the zone, the circuit, and entering or clearing the runway (please, give a runway number, dont say "active"). Anything else is a waste.

As for calls on 126.7 at an airport, this is the first I've ever heard of this. If you're on the ground, see above, if you're in the air around an uncontrolled, what the heck are you doing on 26.7 anyways!

Slick_Rick, you should be monitoring airport frequency within 5nm, if you do so, and someone takes off, lands, or is in the circuit, odds are you'll hear them (if they arent NORDO/RONLY) If not, as UNICOM. If thats not an option, and "a/c speeds getting so much faster" then why not use good airmanship and slow down, assess the situation, and make a good decision? Again, please remember not everyone has a radio, and not everyone broadcasts. Dont assume because you dont hear anything that no one is there.

/2cents

[Vortex_driver]

Both radios...

much safer... it's company procedures for many company in northern ontario and northern Quebec. It helps a lot... Good airmanship...

Like you said, it souldn't be long. All we need to know is which runway your t/o, where your going and what altitude... No Fucking "conflicting trafic contact XXX on 126,7 thank you for your attention folks"...

[KAG]

I was almost in a mid air with a Beakskin 99 some years ago. We were just rotating as he called final into our face, on the initial climb out I saw his tail light go under us - it was IMC. If he had of transmitted on both freq's it would not have happened, as they were on the wrong ATF and didn't realize until short final. We had made all calls, on both freq's. We were very lucky, lesson learned.

Needless to say, I'm a fan of using both freq's.

[captain_dc]

1 call on 126.7 prior to take off isn't going to hurt anyone and hey it might even save you from a close encounter or worse a direct conflict.

If we are talking about uncontroled airports that include whatever little grass, mud, swamp hole that you are able to land your aircraft in, chances are many people don't know all the little strips everywhere, so they wouldn't be monitoring youre aerodrome frequency, especialy hellicopters, many of wich only have 1 radio that will be set and left on 126.7 unless they are coming into a specific aeredrome frequency area. SO, the only way many people may know you are in the area is 126.7, therefore how could you not broadcast at least once prior to take off?

[gabo]

This is the closest i can find,

RAC 8.11 Class G Airspace - Recommended Operating Procedures

c) Immediately before changing altitude, commencing an instrument approach, or departing IFR, pilots should broadcast there intentions on 126.7 whenever practical. Such broadcasts should contain adequate information to enable other pilots to be fully aware of the position and intention so they can determine if there will be any conflict with their flight path.

It doesn't say however that you should broadcast your taxi intentions, although most of the time this call would be done prior to or during the taxi so most of the time it come out as: ........taxiing for departure off runway XX, then whatever your intentions are.

[paydaymayday]

x

[HO Driver]

While I agree that some calls are useless on 126.7 like "down and clear" or "repositioning on the ramp" I think 126.7 calls prior to T/O are just fine. Like it's been mentioned, just a quick call with intentions doesn’t hurt. What if the Otter or 185 only has one radio? (there are lots that only have a single comm.) I don't think I've ever heard of a single accident where the cause, or any contributing factors, was too much communication. Now I'm sure there are several that involved too little communication. Just because the regs say to do it one way doesn't necessarily mean it's the safe way. To all those guys who make a quick 126.7 call prior to T/O, thanks!

[paydaymayday]

x

[Raybanman]

This is the closest i can find,

RAC 8.11 Class G Airspace - Recommended Operating Procedures

c) Immediately before changing altitude, commencing an instrument approach, or departing IFR, pilots should broadcast there intentions on 126.7 whenever practical. Such broadcasts should contain adequate information to enable other pilots to be fully aware of the position and intention so they can determine if there will be any conflict with their flight path.

It doesn't say however that you should broadcast your taxi intentions, although most of the time this call would be done prior to or during the taxi so most of the time it come out as: ........taxiing for departure off runway XX, then whatever your intentions are.

I was just trying to find this reference! Nice work Gabo! This is a legal requirement while flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace. VFR it's not required, but why not give a VERY quick shout anyway - someone may be inbound IFR.

Cheers,
PP

[AirFrame]

Is this just an IFR requirement? I don't remember ever hearing about this while getting my PPL. I'm not sure what value it adds to broadcast on two frequencies... Most uncontrolled fields have either an ATF or an MF. Why doesn't an IFR flight approaching or departing just use those? There must be a reason?

[RVgrin]

2. If the airport isnt busy, who is listening to your call anyways?

This logic is flawed. Just because you don't see circuit traffic doesn't mean a plane isn't inbound to ruin your day.

3. Uncontrolled airports are NORDO/RONLY friendly,

Not necessarily. Uncontrolled airports may have mandatory frequencies ( MF ). All ATFs are uncontrolled, but the opposite is not necessarily true.

so if you're of the mentality to broadcast everything and rely on listening for others broadcasting, and you find it annoying when you spot someone you havent heard on the radio, maybe you shouldn't be operating in uncontrolled in the first place.

This is a straw man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man). Clearly everyone should look as well as listen. But if you have a radio, use it (properly).

As for calls on 126.7 at an airport, this is the first I've ever heard of this. If you're on the ground, see above, if you're in the air around an uncontrolled, what the heck are you doing on 26.7 anyways!

Anyone who flies IFR in the north probably understands the point Slick_Rick was trying to make.

Again, please remember not everyone has a radio, and not everyone broadcasts. Dont assume because you dont hear anything that no one is there.

Good advice, but, again, I didn't hear anyone say otherwise.

[Slick_Rick]

For all the guys doing touch and go's inside an mf at a flight school or whatever, I could understand why you wouldn’t want to hear extra radio garble. My experience is in the north doing sched/charter/freight work is that in these area's people usually make 2 calls inbound 1 on each radio, then calling final on the MF/atf ( this keeps the radio fairly clean without a bunch of different ppl making continuous position reports if there is no one out there(some still do). Most people prior to taxiing for a take off on these usually gravel strips, where it only takes a minute or two to become airborne will make a call on both radios, a few seconds each. My theory is that doing things this way causes less congestion on the radios, as the extra (one could say redundant, a just in case the first one was missed radio call is coming from the ground as opposed to say the inbound guy having to call entering the zone on the ATF because for whatever reason they missed the 1 call that the guy on the ground made before taking off, and the guy taking off only feels like he has to make one call before taking off and hasnt said a word on 67 untill he is in the air probobly through 400 feet and in the turn.

There are a lot of different areas in Canada with different "radio styles", I look at all of the other aspects of aviation where there is so much redundant safety, i.e. maintenance, controlled IFR, yet in these increasingly busy northern uncontrolled locations there is such a wide range of accepted procedures that I think it is leaving significant gaps in safety and I feel it wont be long until there is the day when all of these little gaps in procedure line up to cause a mid air.

I think I should have included an option in the poll of where you fly and what your experience level is, it seems after reading the replies the guys with more experience agree that making a quick call on 67 before departing just makes sense

[Janszoon]

As long as you listen on 126.7 after making your call and not jump too quickly to the other frequency, just to get out what you wanted to say quicker. I've seen that all too often. Talk, listen, then talk on other frequency, then listen again. It's not a race to talk the fastest.

[BingBong]

The north is filled with congested radios making useless, unnecessary calls. I can think of one company in particular that does this in Ontario.

-Call 22.8 when you are close to the airport. Forget the 26.7 calls within about 5 miles inbound. You are not en-route, you are on an approach.

-The only call that should be made on 26.7 when you are on the ground is *one* before you depart.

-Starting engine/taxiing/down and clear calls on 26.7 AFTER you've made them on 22.8? You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

-Only call 26.7 en route, unless you are specifically talking to pertinent traffic in possible conflict on 22.8.

I'm sick of monitoring 22.8 and 26.7 and hearing "XXXX 851 down and clear. *click* XXXX 851 down and clear."

It's people like you who give the coast the "kill zone" nickname.....gfy....you and everyone else who's "airborne for the flight levels"...

[stef]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 5h0008.asp

[Bushav8er]

Good example Stef.

Many aircraft operating in northwestern Ontario use the 122.8 MHz frequency for en route communication instead of 126.7 MHz. Consequently, the traffic operating on 122.8 MHz will not receive traffic information provided by aircraft on 126.7 MHz or on the MF.

I remember that one (I knew the Navajo pilot). Just after this, all the operators got together at a meeting to see how they can make things 'safer'. I immediately thought - 'what a joke.' Just follow established rules and procedures. What they got was a chunk of airspace cut-out around the airport, but it is still at the approach end of the runway.

They still use 22.8 as an air to air and yak up a storm. Who, What, When and Where - period. Keep it short and to the point and change frequencies for BSing.

[BingBong]

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repor ... 5h0008.asp

+1