April 2005 flight test guide

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Cat Driver
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Post by Cat Driver »

But that does not make any sense R.S.C. what moron thought that one up?

The time has come when we must have some of these people examined by a psychiatrist to determine what mental difficiency they are suffering from, then have them instiutionalized so they cannot endanger others with their stupid rules.

But unfortunately R.S.C I do beleive you because I have had the missfortune of trying to reason with the guy in Ottawa that is in charge of flight training and I found him to be totally brain dead and unable to even discuss something on a level that made any sense. They get so insulated in their make believe world that they may as well be on another planet when it comes to understanding the industry they are supposed to be in charge of.

Oh well, maybe some of you younger types will be able to bring some sanity back into flight training. :smt003

And remember if you ever need any advice on how to do things in a safe and professional manner that works, I'm more than happy to help out. :D

Cat
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Post by . ._ »

This sounds like a classic case of, "Get your licence, THEN learn how to fly."

I make it a point not to learn anything right now. That way, when I get out of school, I won't have the bad habits to break. :P

-istp
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Post by Flying Low »

Sounds like this should now be two seperate exercises.

1. Standard forced approach - voice your plan, cause checks and simulated radio calls while making an approach to the field of your choice. This field can be changed at any time with an appropriate reason (didn't see all the cows from way up there, nicer field next door, cuter farmers daughter two fields over, etc.).

2. Glide accuracy - upon engine failure examiner picks field and direction of landing. Student is required to make the field (within certain restrictions on bank angle etc.).

If the pilot succeeds in making the original field in the first exercise then the second one would not be required. This is likely a better way to test the both the pilots accuracy and PDM. No pilot in their right mind will commit themself to a field just because it was their original choice and this should be part of the test (we shouldn't be training drones). In the same token, a pilot should be able to make a designated field with two chances at it.
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Post by Snagmaster E »

Take a look at the standards for the Rec license flight test....

In one part it says a retest will be required if there's 2 ground or 3 overall failures of items.

In the part on failing, it says that any ground excersise failed constitutes a full retest.

Think these were proof read?

Also, on the pre-course assignment for the next refresher course, it says it's updated as of the first, but the questions are the same as the ones from before (old guides).
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Post by sakism »

As unreasonable as it is in a practical sense, there has to be some restriction on changing fields. Otherwise, no one training east of Calgary or west of Winnipeg would ever miss a forced approach - or even have any clue how to do one with limited fields to select.

However, the examiner should assess the exercise as a fail before any unsafe flying is attempted. It's not hard to tell when the field is unattainable.
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Post by Right Seat Captain »

sakism wrote:As unreasonable as it is in a practical sense, there has to be some restriction on changing fields. Otherwise, no one training east of Calgary or west of Winnipeg would ever miss a forced approach - or even have any clue how to do one with limited fields to select.

However, the examiner should assess the exercise as a fail before any unsafe flying is attempted. It's not hard to tell when the field is unattainable.
I definately agree with the last statement. And I also see what you mean about forced approach in the prairies. However in the prairies, fields are also so large that one might find themselves ever in need to change fields in the first place.

You'll notice in the new Commercial Licence Flight Test Standards, they now have the 180 degree power off approach. Essentially a simulated engine failure from the downwind, where they have to land within +400/-50 feet of a predetermined touchdown point. According to the head of flight training standards in Tower C, this was introduced to show that the candidate can glide to a specific point and land on it. Of course this is not in the PPL or RPP standards, which is unfortunate.

I believe the that the forced approach in the flight test, should mirror as closely as safely possible an actual emergency scenario. In the event of the necessity to change fields because they misjudged the original field, something that could potentially occur to any pilot with any experience under pressure of an emergency, you can now evaluate their decision making skills.

If a student were to be showing me their forced approach skills, and they are coming in short to a field, I would definately hope they would not continue the approach, or simply give up, because those are simply not options you have when you no longer have an engine. If you could identify the need and quickly decide to select another suitable field, that in itself is a valuable skill to have as a pilot.

The reality that we're in a huge country, with differing physical geography between so many places, and the need to have one set of standards is unfortunate. It's also unfortunate that we can't trust examiners enough to decide for themselves whether a pilot deserves a licence or not based on specific situations encountered during the flight test, but that's life. This is the reason why instructors must sign a recommendation letter for a student to go through a flight test. There is no way that an examiner can decide 100% that a student is okay to have a licence, but the student's instructor should know.

Just my $0.43
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Post by FUBAR »

Is it just me or is this more of a pain in the a$$ than anything else? I still remember when the old ones came out...wasn't that long ago.
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Post by Cat Driver »

Quote :

"It's also unfortunate that we can't trust examiners enough to decide for themselves whether a pilot deserves a licence or not based on specific situations encountered during the flight test, but that's life. "

You have this all screwed up Right Seat Capt........

It is not that examiners per say can not be trusted to determine if someone knows what they are doing and have an acceptable skills level.

The problem is the idiot you mentioned in Tower C who is responsible for the stupidity that passes as flight instruction in todays Socialist Republic of Canada. Get rid of the idiots in Tower C and their clones in each region and things may recover back to something that works.

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Post by Right Seat Captain »

Cat, you may be right, however I don't know enough about these people to form an opinion about them in this particular situation.

But I do know that the inspector in question was against this situation with the forced approaches. Apparently, what I'm told is that it was discussed amongst examiners (both TC and non-TC examiners), and there was an overwhelming majority wanting to restrict changing of firlds during a flight test.

I had a meeting with said person, which shed a lot of light on all of the new standards for me. There are a few things I agree with, a few I disagree with, and a few things I just don't know about. Of course I absolutely disagree witht he forced approach thing, as you can all see. The biggest changes however occured with the Commercial Standards.

The standards were made tougher for two reasons. One is that Canada was once considered to have the best training standards in the world. Since that time, nothing has changed while the world, namely the FAA and especially the JAA have surpassed Canada. So now they're trying to play catch-up. I don't necessarily agree with this because who is to say that the JAA way of doing things is good? I admitedly don't know a lot about their system, but from what I've heard here, and from people I've talked to from Europe, it seems overly excessive in terms of requirements and standards.

The second reason was that Canadian Operators have been apparently complaining of the quality of pilots they've been getting. Specifically they don't think for themselves. An example given that a pilot was brought up with a check flight with the CP of a VFR operation, the DG was covered up by the CP, and the pilot was told to turn from his present heading of North, to a Heading of West. Well the pilot, who was flying VFR, proceded to turn his watch over tot he timer, and started a rate one timed turn. The pilot could have simpoly looked left 90 degrees and turned towards some landmark. Now to me this seems like it was just a fresg experienced pilot who was programmed for a flight test.

Another example that was given was the diversion exercise for the commercial. New commercial pilots were used to setting up some race track patern or orbiting some town to plan out a diversion, when the idea of the commercial diversion is to apparently depart within 30 seconds and go somewhere. For example a customer tells the pilot 'hey my cottage is over there, can we go see it?' and if a pilot proceeded to orbit some town for 5 minutes and plan a diversion, he wold surely be fired the next day.

Anyways these are just some examples that were given to me, I did not come up with these. But I think it boils down to the fact that commercial students are trained to pass a flight test, and nothing else. So they add things to the flight test, so that instructors can continue training their students only to pass a flight test. To me this seems quite silly. It's not a solution to the problem. It's just changing the problem. Something should be done to change how instructors are teaching Commercial Students.

What exactly should these changes be? I have no idea, but I just know this isn't it.

I've typed too long, so my monologue ends here for now 8)
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Post by Cat Driver »

" Cat, you may be right, however I don't know enough about these people to form an opinion about them in this particular situation. "

RSC :

Well trust me, I have dealt with them for decades and the only changes that I have been able to identify is they have gotten further and further form reality as the years pass, now they are 100% politicians who have only one agenda and that is feathering their nest payed for by your tax dollars. As to the present head of flight training you would be far better off paying his welfare just to get him out of the system.

" I admitedly don't know a lot about their system, but from what I've heard here, and from people I've talked to from Europe, it seems overly excessive in terms of requirements and standards. "

I work in Europe in the training sector and you had better pray that your country does not follow their system.

About the best description that I can think of is suppose you were being taught how to determine the best breakfast cereal for sale in a supermarket. In Canada you would have to study and write about the cereal. In Europe you would have to study and write exams on the cereal, the moisture proof bag, the box the cereal comes in and the life history of the founder of the company that produced the product.

But cheer up all that B.S. is coming your way with the only difference is the flavour will be Canadian and mixed up and put in the recipe by idiots such as you have running the flight training show today.

You have my deepest sympathy and I wish you all the best. :smt023

One more thing, the higher they rise in the system the further they get fron the real world of flying, any idea how much stick time the top dogs get in a year?

Cat
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The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no


After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Post by Cool Rythms! »

I've been out of the instructing scene for a few years now, so I hav'nt seen the latest flight test guide. However, I'll be dropping by Transport in the next few days, to see about some other stuff, so I might just pick one up. I've been entertaining the thought of doing a little instructing on the side again.
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