Air Canada and MPIC

[captain 999]

Hello All,

Will Air Canada hire a pilot with little or no MPIC time?

Many of us 2000-3000hr FOs often face a decision to remain with our current employer or move up to a larger 705 as a FO. There are benefits and drawbacks to both.

Remaining at our current employer may result in an upgrade and MPIC with the drawback of living in remote regions and dealing with non-unionized company BS. Moving on to a large 705 offers favorable working conditions, greater support infrastructure and flight benefits.

So you can either suck it up and deal with the current lifestyle hoping it produces a fruitful future rapidly. Or move on to a large 705 flying well-maintained aircraft under better working conditions as a FO.

Personally, I like the latter but fear that lack of MPIC will hurt the ultimate goal of flying for Air Canada.

Thank you

[jazzbeat]

If you really look like your avatar, don't worry about hours... pretty sure you will get on with AC

[Johnny#5]

[bcflyer]

Air Canada uses a matrix type setup to determine who gets interviews. Each box you can click off adds points to your total (very simplified version but thats the general idea) so if you have enough of the other boxes ticked you may get by with no MPIC.
Having said that, I've always gone with the PIC job. At some point in your career you may have the opportunity to be in command of a larger airplane. Having PIC time in smaller aircraft will make that transition alot easier. It also changes that way you view what is going on in the cockpit. Yes you can learn alot from watching older experienced captains but it is not the same as making the decisions yourself. When you're the one in charge the proverbial buck stops with you and that experience will make you a better F/O when the time comes to sit on the right again.

[Black Cat]

The Triple F Matrix

Your French.
Your a Female.
Your Father is works there.

Any one of the above and you got a pretty good shot. All 3 your in like flint.

[North Shore]

All 3 your in like flint.

Flynn. In like Flynn.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... like+Flynn and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errol_Flynn

[The Raven]

The Triple F Matrix

Your French.
Your a Female.
Your Father is works there.

Any one of the above and you got a pretty good shot. All 3 your in like flint.

Having good grammar and knowing how to spell also helps.

It's not "Your", it's "You're" (You are).

Also, try leaving the word "is" out of "Your Father is works there".

Instead of "Any one of the above and you got a pretty good shot" try "Any one of the above and you have a pretty good shot."

Instead of "All 3 your in like flint" try "All 3 and you're in like Flynn".

Now, regarding your comments.

1....The vast majority of Air Canada's pilots are unilingual English.

2....Approximately 5% are female.

3....Many children of Air Canada employees have been turned down in recent years. Air Canada doesn't want to be seen to be showing nepotism therefore if you are a son or daughter of an employee you have to be very impressive before getting hired.

[Black Cat]

ya sorry, never was too good at the English, not my first language you see.

But anyhow, mostly joking about the 3F thing. It was a bit stereotypical tho, as it seemed AC turned down some really really good people over the last 5 years (no I wasnt one of them) in favor of the 3F type. Im just saying.

To the original poster; sorry to hijack. I know someone who got on at AC with nil mpic.

Good luck and go for the lifestyle first.

[Dhc6to8]

Raven... I really hope you are correct on your point #3.... back in 1995 I was standing on the Vancouver south terminal float base and my buddy "J" showed up with his dad to say goodbye to us... we had all started at the same time (flying that is) and his dad announced that he didn't want any hard feelings, and announced "J" was starting at AC the following month... and dad was a AC A320 Vancouver Captain and check pilot.... he was nice enough to walk all our resumes in as a courtesy, but we got turned down and "J"'s dad told us that it was family first and "off the street" after.... funny thing is, 3 years later two females I had gone to flight school with, were taken by AC hands down. One of the females had been turned down twice for the left seat at the employer we worked at... and she never sat a day in her life in the left seat... and the other female bombed the sim twice [Dash 8] and was trained to standard before the third try... then after passing on the third attempt, walked over to AC... This bitching just proves that there are no magical numbers, no magical anything to get on with a mainlne carrier.... persistence, a bit of luck, dedication and a good attitude may, just may, get you in.... when I look back at how my career has gone part of me is happy that I didn't get into AC back in 1995... I would have missed everything else I have experienced in life thus far... but on the other hand, who knows how life would have been had I made it in... after all, a BSc, ATPL and thousands of command hours on transport category turboprops and jets hasn't really opened that many doors... it either was just pure luck, right time at the right place or knowing the right people... If I would have to do it all over again, I would most likely go to medical school become a "tit and ass" doctor and then buy myself a mustang or havard to play with on the weekends....
I really hope that AC has changed the way they hire, there are so many deserving young guys and gals who have been working their arses off to get ahead in this industry and they have the skills and attitude to get the job done... all the power and best of luck to them!
And don't forget..... not getting into AC, is also not the end of the world...
fly safe
6to8

[The Raven]

I've heard it all before about how Captain's sons or daughters get special treatment. The fact is, it's just not true. For the past several years the hiring has largely been taken out of the hands of Air Canada. A large portion of it is done by an outside agency. Sure, an employee can walk in an application, but they all get vetted equally by someone who has no affiliation with said employee.

We have numerous Captains who have had their sons or daughters apply to Air Canada but have been turned down.

Now back to the original poster's question. If it were me I would move up to the larger 705 operation for all the reasons you gave (better working conditions, pay, benefits, etc). You are taking a huge gamble if you stay where you are with the hope that PIC time lands you a job with an airline. My mantra has always been to move to the best job possible. Some may disagree though. It is a tough call. Good luck.

[duranium]

FYI, Black Cat was correct

The '' in like Flint ' saying originated from a 1960's movie titled ' In like Flint ' with James Coburn playing the role of a spy. Those movies were spoofs meant to poke fun at the 007 movies. He made two subsequents sequel movies on the same subject. And, if anyone can post a link were I could download the phone ring in that movie, that would make my day.

[Inverted2]

Nearly everyone I know who has a parent at AC got on regardless of their experience level. There are always a few exceptions. I can't blame them, would you? If I had parent there, of course I would use it to my advantage. I hear a lot of denials about this, but maybe its a bit of guilt or whatever, but this is normal for all fields of work!!

[Phlyer]

Well said Dhc6to8. I can relate completely.

[Changes in Latitudes]

The last I heard that Air Canada had indeed changed the family first policy after the simulator ended up weeding out so many of the chosen few. This is purely industry rumour however, so take it at face value.

[sepia]

1....The vast majority of Air Canada's pilots are unilingual English.

2....Approximately 5% are female.

3....Many children of Air Canada employees have been turned down in recent years. Air Canada doesn't want to be seen to be showing nepotism therefore if you are a son or daughter of an employee you have to be very impressive before getting hired.

Just to pay devils advocate because it's fun.

1. Quebec makes up roughly 20 percent of Canada's population. The Montreal base and it's many francophone commuters make up a far larger portion of Air Canada's pilot roster.

2. The last year that we had Data from transport, approximately 3% of ATPL holders were female. When you factor in that 35 years ago no one hired was female. That's an absolutely INSANE bias to have 5% of the Air Canada roster as females. That would equate to something like a 300% more likely to be hired ratio. During this current wave of interviews, they had an entire day of female only interviews. How mathematically likely is that with 3% of ATPL holders being female? Sure it COULD happen with no bias, but lets use our brains instead.

3. The 21yr old guy flying a twin commander was "very impressive" last round of hiring I guess? The nepotism only exists for the select people with the right connections. Take a look at the first new hire classes as they come on line here. There's 3 groups in the first classes here. Group 1, was given the green light right before the door slammed shut at the end of the last hiring. They've been rightfully placed at the start of this list. Group 2, those with connections. Group 3, the lucky randoms picked up at the start of the wave. Would you care to wager which group is the smallest at the start?

[yycflyguy]

Oh Jesus, another thread on nepotism.

[Fleet80]

Your numbers are out of date, 4.5% of ATPL holders are female - from the TC website......Females are more likely to have post-secondary university, females have far fewer opportunities in the military, (we couldn't even get in to the airforce until long after I started flying...) and females are far less likely to get those jammy jobs you guys get by calling up your buddies and your dads and your hockey pals and we rarely get a high paying grunt job with uncle Louis to pay for flying lessons and if we want a family we have to quit flying for a while and if we get a corporate job some slime-ball client says he won't fly with a chick in the left seat and if you want a job in the north the boss says he doesn't have bunks or bathrooms for girls and if you want a job on the dock the boss says his nephew is coming when he gets his CPL and on and on. Since 2007 Air Canada has hired 324 pilots, 301 of them were guys - so fill your boots with that T n A silicon thing buddy, I hear we're hiring flight attendants by the bucket load, maybe you'll make room for some extraordinary, dedicated, hard-working gal that beat the dismal odds and got through this crap we've been eating for 50 years!
A challenge to any Westjetters - how many male/female pilots have you guys hired since 2007? How about Borek Air, Air North, Jazz, Transat, Skyservice, lay it out man so we can all read how great us girls have it in aviation,
shite,
lucy

[jazzbeat]

of course only 23 on 324 were hired from 2007-2010... there were none left they were all hired at the beginning in 2005...



relax a bit, I don't think you can really play the discrimination card with Ac or Jazz... they both hire quite a bunch of female pilots

[sepia]

Your numbers are out of date, 4.5% of ATPL holders are female - from the TC website......Females are more likely to have post-secondary university, females have far fewer opportunities in the military, (we couldn't even get in to the airforce until long after I started flying...) and females are far less likely to get those jammy jobs you guys get by calling up your buddies and your dads and your hockey pals and we rarely get a high paying grunt job with uncle Louis to pay for flying lessons and if we want a family we have to quit flying for a while and if we get a corporate job some slime-ball client says he won't fly with a chick in the left seat and if you want a job in the north the boss says he doesn't have bunks or bathrooms for girls and if you want a job on the dock the boss says his nephew is coming when he gets his CPL and on and on. Since 2007 Air Canada has hired 324 pilots, 301 of them were guys - so fill your boots with that T n A silicon thing buddy, I hear we're hiring flight attendants by the bucket load, maybe you'll make room for some extraordinary, dedicated, hard-working gal that beat the dismal odds and got through this crap we've been eating for 50 years!
A challenge to any Westjetters - how many male/female pilots have you guys hired since 2007? How about Borek Air, Air North, Jazz, Transat, Skyservice, lay it out man so we can all read how great us girls have it in aviation,
shite,
lucy

If no hiring bias exists, how do you explain a greater number of women at AC then exists in ATPL holders? It becomes even more evident when you realize that beyond a certain seniority # no women exists because they hadn't been hired yet. The only way you can arrive at the percentage we have today is to hire with extreme bias.

[Eastside]

In my opinion, the AC selection process doesn't weight enough TOWARDS experience.

With due respect, when I fill out the AC application, it asks for a lot of general info (schools, training), but very little on the hard flight time data. There are only a few boxes that ask for flight times - the MPIC ones, for aircraft below and above 12,500 lbs. There was a column for college degrees and somewhere in there I checked off that I was bilingual. But not that much else. And it should weight towards experienced, higher-time candidates. I seem to recall back the last time they hired, there were little boxes to check based on the total time you had, but they have gone away. Then again, never got called last time to interview either.

I just see the AC application process as luck of the draw. There are 3000-4000 applicants in it. When I read stories of these 23yr old 2800 hr light piston twin pilots getting called, its natural to be a bit envious. I don't doubt that they are good pilots and good people, but when there are people with double or triple that flight time not getting called to interview, it doesn't make sense. Then again, with 3000+ qualified names in the hat, it is essentially luck whether they look at you or not. The recruiters can only go through a small percentage of those CVs before they make their invites. Again I don't doubt that the low time guys getting calls are good people - I just wish there was more of a way to showcase your flying background, so that those of us with two or three times that experience, college degrees, multiple jet type ratings, years of 705 style experience, Level D sims, would also be considered. If AC wants to be the plum job in Canada, then make it so people have to build substantial real world experience to get called.

Just my two cents. Good luck to us all!

[hnl]

The last I heard that Air Canada had indeed changed the family first policy after the simulator ended up weeding out so many of the chosen few. This is purely industry rumour however, so take it at face value.

The only correct part of this statement is "pure industry rumour". It is totally false. As a matter of fact many company management pilots have come from that particular group.

[Mig29]

okey...........Anyways, back to the original question. (Guys here get carried away quickly when a 'girl' walks in through AvCanada door - just kidding people)

Bottom line is that you will end up making choices in life that are good and sometimes not so good when you look back. You have to do what feels right for you.

AC's unofficial policy is that they prefer pilots to have at least 500MPIC on their resume, amongst other things on their matrix scale, as people mentioned above..

If you see yourself happy somewhere as an F/O then go with it. If you want to fly heavy iron one day, then AC or Transat or expat airlines are places to be. Not everyone is going to be happy at AC, just like not everyone is going to be happy at WJ,Jazz, Emirates etc. It's personal and you will only make that decision in the end.

Good luck!

[AMM]

//incredibly offensive content removed by Sulako. Strikes 1 and 2. Next time's a bannination. Take a week off to contemplate the many reasons why.

[yycflyguy]

[sepia]

Yah, it was sooooo easy for me being a guy. Making $1700 in my first 11 months of instructing. Life was just too easy for me there. I wanted to build character, so I left the high paid diamonds and furs of instructing. I went up and loaded freight and did bulk fuel at 330 in the morning for a year and a half to get a CHANCE at flying a plane. I was super lucky, there were people that worked twice as long for the opportunity. From there I bounced around from northern shit hole, to northern shit hole, because life was just sooooo easy for me being a guy. After my time up north I took a pay cut and committed career suicide by taking a FO single engine job in a city just to get out of the north. As you can see, being a guy sure made life easy.


All joking aside. The difference between us is that I don't think my suffering is unique. I worked along side some fantastic people, both male and female, and not one of us was spared. Some people caught lucky breaks, some people got screwed by timing. It's just the way things work. Trying to cry foul that somehow you've had a tough run at aviation because you're a female is laughable at best. The numbers prove without any doubt that the exact opposite is true. I guess if you're not smart enough to figure out that I don't moderate this forum, you're probably not smart enough to figure that out either though.