Wikileaks

[reality check]

Nark,

Nobody is talking about real-time intelligence here. What I believe North Shore is talking about it our right to know methods and the like. That, I am in total agreement with. The military has a sense of entitlement that sees it get in trouble time and again. If you operate within the laws of the nation, then there is nothing to worry about, but as you know that isn't always the case. This isn't about planning and public knowledge of tactics, it's about oversight which is sorely needed.

[Nark]

There is oversight.

There have been a number of servicemen/women charged with various crimes during the course of these wars. It's there, however it's not being told to you by a bubbled-head-bleach-blond on the evening news.

[reality check]

A bit of a good old fashioned closing the barn door after the horses have bolted tho. No? The idea is to make sure the murders and abuses are prevented, not prosecuted.

I'm not sure what the blonde comment has to do with anything?

[Spokes]

I'm not sure what the blonde comment has to do with anything?

Someone else that wasn't around in the 80's. Line from a Don Henley song.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/don+henley ... 42033.html

[reality check]

I'm not sure what the blonde comment has to do with anything?

Someone else that wasn't around in the 80's. Line from a Don Henley song.
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/d/don+henley ... 42033.html

Don Henley? Not my style I'm afraid, but I can assure you I was more than "around in the 80's." Typical Avcan response, don't you have anything of value to contribute here?

[North Shore]

Nark,
Reality check clarified what I meant. I understand from a security point that I have no need/right to know that unit 'X' is in area 'Y.' and that's fine. But if unit 'X' is using torture or shooting unarmed civilians, then I do need to know.

[niss]

Nark is right in the tactical sense, we do not have a right to know troop movements and to an extent tactics.

That said if someone decided to lets say change SOPs at a checkpoint so instead of warning those who approach they just shoot the legs, then we have a right to know.

It is a very fine line to walk without falling off.

[Expat]

The leaks are not endangering lives. They may endanger political careers, and hopefully alliances based on deceit, lies and fraud...And if they achieve this, it would have been worth it...

[sky's the limit]

OPSEC (Operational Security for you non-Nark types) is not the issue here.

What is at issue is the culture of deceit, cover ups, lies, and unlawful conduct that has become (always has been I might suggest) the hallmark of many Western Governments and those in power. These leaks, as Expat suggests, and as the US Dept of State and Defense Dept freely admit, are not putting lives directly at risk. What it is doing is bringing some accountability where previously there has been none, I stress "some," in the strictest sense of the word. There is a long way to go.

For that, I for one am grateful. Too many have become far too used to this culture over the last several decades, the last ten years in particular, and if we are to move forward at all, it is time to start doing something about it.

I'm not interested in reading about Government scandal after Government scandal, abuse after abuse, error after error - I'm interested in reading about how my Government is representing me in good faith abroad and serving me as citizen domestically. If Wiki has raised some awareness for the general public on the workings of Gov't, then it is a small step in the right direction.

I seem to remember our current PM running on a platform of transparency and accountability... FAIL, on both counts, and that is of grave concern to all citizens regardless of political leanings.

stl

[Hedley]

STL: Nearly all governments are populated and led by slimy, lying thieves. Always have, always will. The selection process ensures it. It is an enormous accident if it is otherwise, similar to the probability of a monkey typing out Shakespeare.

Government doesn't provide leadership to the citizens - that's hilarious. They are a parasitic drag on the country, and if a country does well, it is almost always despite the government, not because of it.

All you can hope for is that you don't get a completely homicidal psychopath in charge of the government. Historically, that has rarely worked out well.

Frankly, you expect far more from the government than it will ever deliver. Not sure why you set yourself up for such certain, idealistic disappointment.

[sky's the limit]

Frankly, you expect far more from the government than it will ever deliver. Not sure why you set yourself up for such certain, idealistic disappointment.

Because if you don't at least aim for what you would ideally desire, then what are you left with? Nothing. The system is broken, we all know that, and it probably has been broken since inception, but I think we can agree it is better than what it replaced. Ergo the effort to change this one into something better.

That almost everyone currently sits back with a non-engaged attitude, is precisely why we have what we have. A people gets the government it deserves, of that I'm sure you agree. In fact that may be a direct quote from one of your posts...

I simply choose to strive for an ideal - or at least a loftier version of a given concept - as even though we all know government will never be perfect, it can be a whole lot better than it is now. As can media, etc, etc. I prefer to do something rather than nothing, and while comprehensive systemic change may be a long way off, accountability is not, and that is a goal that is absolutely attainable.

To each their own I suppose... But then, that is why we are where we are.

stl

[Siddley Hawker]

Another take on the leaked material. Way to go Julian, you're a real hero.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opi ... le1818157/

[North Shore]

Hah, The Grope and Flail: Left-wing MSM at its best! How about some real commentary/journalism from sources we can trust, like Fox or The National Post?

[Siddley Hawker]

Hah, The Grope and Flail: Left-wing MSM at its best!

Actually, after that makeover this fall it's more a clone of USA Today.

[sky's the limit]

Another take on the leaked material. Way to go Julian, you're a real hero.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opi ... le1818157/

Another take, indeed.

But one that happens to ignore facts and root causes; namely foreign government involvement in Indonesia, strong US and British support of both the legal and illegal variety for the brutal Suharto regime from the mid-sixties to the late 90's, and a whole host of other extremely pertinent information. I have to wonder who put him up to it, as it does seem to be the flavour of the week to dump on Assange, doesn't it? Personal distaste for Assange (and he does seem a bit of a crack-pot) and the issue of the leaked cables are separate, and people would be well advised to remember that.

This fellow gets valuable Op-Ed space in the Globe based on his experiences - which are obviously horrific and disturbing, to take nothing away from him - yet he fails to write a comprehensive piece that puts his story into context, then he takes great issue with Wikileaks as the main protagonist in his scenario? Would covert American support for Suharto have been possible if there were more transparency, if there were a Wikileaks then? Who knows, but I can bet it would have been more difficult to hide from public view, possibly negating his reason for writing cables back to Ottawa in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Wikileak cheerleader unquestioningly, as with anything else there are pros and cons to this set of revelations. But, I have to wonder how many letters he wrote to the Globe - or any other newspaper for that matter - in the 1990's about the Western monetary and military support for a brutal dictator's occupation of East Timor that resulted in over 100,000 deaths and immeasurable suffering? How Western backing was one of the root causes of torture and the human rights abuses he was witnessing? I bet not one.

Unfortunately he has neglected to present a balanced view, or even pretend to, and even more unfortunately a vast majority of the people who read that piece will not know the difference. The Globe should be embarrassed printing it without proper context.

Now, it's onto more pressing issues - like getting my 7' long dirt bike into the back of my 6' long, high canopied truck for a month long road trip through the American SW. Looks like both wheels are coming off... PITA!

stl

[rigpiggy]

Politicians are a lot like diapers – they should be changed frequently and for the same reason”.

Mark Twain I believe

[2R]

Anyone think this is a secret,give yourself a big slap
This could be the reason Shrillary is not going to run in 2012
US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned last year in a leaked classified memo that donors in Saudi Arabia were the "most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide".

She said it was "an ongoing challenge" to persuade Saudi officials to treat such activity as a strategic priority.

The groups funded include al-Qaeda, the Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba, she added.

The memo, released by Wikileaks, also criticised efforts to combat militants by the UAE, Qatar and Kuwait.

Meanwhile, a lawyer for the founder of the Wikileaks website said he was holding back secret material for release if anything happened to him.

He told the BBC that a rape case being prepared in Sweden against Julian Assange, an Australian national, was politically motivated.

'Dependent on CIA'

In one classified cable sent in December 2009, Mrs Clinton urged diplomats to redouble efforts to stop funds reaching militants "threatening stability in Pakistan and Afghanistan and targeting Coalition soldiers".

"While the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) takes seriously the threat of terrorism within Saudi Arabia, it has been an ongoing challenge to persuade Saudi officials to treat terrorist financing emanating from Saudi Arabia as a strategic priority," she wrote.


Large sums are raised by militant groups during the annual Hajj pilgrimage, US diplomats believe The Saudi government had begun to make important progress, but "donors in Saudi Arabia constitute the most significant source of funding to Sunni terrorist groups worldwide", she added.

Al-Qaeda, the Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba "probably raised millions of dollars" annually from Saudi sources, often during the Hajj - and the Islamic holy month of Ramadan, she alleged.

Mrs Clinton said reforms to criminalise terrorist financing and restrict the overseas flow of funds from Saudi-based charities had been effective, but that they did not cover equally suspect "multilateral organisations".

Another cable alleges that the Pakistani charity Jamaat-ud-Dawa, which has been accused of being a front for Lashkar-e-Taiba, used a Saudi-based front company to fund its activities in 2005.

Continue reading the main story
“
Start Quote
The lack of effective border controls on cash is no doubt exploited by Taliban couriers and Afghan drug lords”
End Quote
Leaked US diplomatic cable
The US embassy in Riyadh said in February that the Saudi authorities remained "almost completely dependent on the CIA" for information.

'Key transit point'

Wikileaks is currently working through the publication of more than 250,000 US diplomatic cables, whose release has embarrassed the United States.

Washington has condemned the disclosures - including indiscreet descriptions of world leaders and instructions to spy at the UN - as an attack on the world community.

In the latest releases, three other US allies in the Gulf were also listed as sources of funding for militants in the memo sent by Mrs Clinton.

Al-Qaeda and other groups continued to "exploit Kuwait both as a source of funds and as a key transit point", partly because it remains the sole Gulf Co-operation Council (GCC) country that has not criminalised terrorist financing, the cable said.

Continue reading the main story
The Main Leaks So Far
Fears that terrorists may acquire Pakistani nuclear material
Several Arab leaders urged attack on Iran over nuclear issue
US instructs spying on key UN officials
China's changing relationship with North Korea
Yemen approved US strikes on militants
Personal and embarrassing comments on world leaders
Russia is a "virtual mafia state" with widespread corruption and bribery
Afghan President Hamid Karzai is "paranoid and weak"
Comments on the extent of alleged corruption in Afghanistan
Wikileaks cables: Key issues
"While the GOK has demonstrated a willingness to take action when attacks target Kuwait, it has been less inclined to take action against Kuwait-based financiers and facilitators plotting attacks outside of Kuwait," Mrs Clinton wrote.

Kuwaiti officials resisted the "draconian" measures sought by the US against the Revival of Islamic Heritage Society, a charity designated a terrorist entity in 2008 for providing aid to al-Qaeda and affiliated groups, according to one cable.

Qatar is meanwhile criticised for having "adopted a largely passive approach" to fundraising activities, and its overall level of counter-terrorism co-operation with the US is "considered the worst in the region".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11923176
The UAE is described as a "strategic gap" that militants can exploit, with the Taliban and Haqqani Network believed to be earning "significant funds" from business interests, kidnapping and extortion there.

"High volumes of cash and electronic funds flow both to and from Afghanistan and Pakistan, the vast majority of which is derived from legitimate trade and remittances. The lack of effective border controls on cash is no doubt exploited by Taliban couriers and Afghan drug lords, camouflaged among traders, businessmen and migrant workers," one cable said.

Another cable said militants avoided money transfer controls by sending amounts below reporting thresholds, using couriers and hawala - an Islamic informal transfer system.

Emerging trends include mobile banking, pre-paid cards, and internet banking.

[Expat]

Where is the real hot stuff?

[grimey]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Wikileak cheerleader unquestioningly, as with anything else there are pros and cons to this set of revelations. But, I have to wonder how many letters he wrote to the Globe - or any other newspaper for that matter - in the 1990's about the Western monetary and military support for a brutal dictator's occupation of East Timor that resulted in over 100,000 deaths and immeasurable suffering? How Western backing was one of the root causes of torture and the human rights abuses he was witnessing? I bet not one.

That's half the point: he didn't write to letters to the newspaper due to the repercussions that it would have had. If he'd written a letter as a Canadian official about our involvement in East Timor, then the Timorese may have lashed out at aid workers. It's not about which side he'd support, it's about how his words would be seen given the fact that he was an employee of the Canadian government directly involved in that area. Things are secret for a reason, and it's not always due to the embarrassment which would result if something were revealed. If Wikileaks selectively revealed documents regarding obvious undisclosed abuses (for instance, if Abu Gharib had never been revealed to the media), that's one thing. But the indiscriminate release of data is grossly irresponsible.

Yes, the article is unbalanced, but it's main point still stands: that the indiscriminate release of information can cause as much harm as it cures.

[sky's the limit]

That's half the point: he didn't write to letters to the newspaper due to the repercussions that it would have had. If he'd written a letter as a Canadian official about our involvement in East Timor, then the Timorese may have lashed out at aid workers.

But the indiscriminate release of data is grossly irresponsible.

Yes, the article is unbalanced, but it's main point still stands: that the indiscriminate release of information can cause as much harm as it cures.

Grimey,

I think you're missing the point a bit, and perhaps are a bit confused on issue itself re: E. Timor, the Indonesian Army, western support of it, and how it all tied together. I'll let you look at that on your own as I don't have time atm.

"Indiscriminate release of information can cause as much harm as it cures." Perhaps, but does not the systemic, routine, and habitual parade of cover-ups, lies, power abuses, and secrets cause a whole lot more harm than good? I submit it does, so do a lot of other people. I do find it interesting however - as I alluded to in one of my prior posts above - that people are so comfortable with the current state of affairs that they feel the need to rail against more information?!?! (It's like some sort of societal Stockholm Syndrome)

The entire culture of Gov't behavior needs a total reset, I'm not sure this will provide it, but I'd like to think it's a start.

Given the gross misuse of power, over and over again, I would also like to think that given an opportunity to have a greater understanding of the world that surrounds them, most people would choose a freer flow of information over the proverbial mushroom syndrome (kept in the dark and fed shit, b/c that is all we are now). It has been very interesting to watch this all go down, and the public's reaction to it.

stl

[Mach1]

Mach 1

Thank you for bring this back on topic.
I agree for the most part. We the People are here to be served by the government, not the other way around. I believe you said this.

However, there are certain things that go on, especially on the battle field, that you as a citizen do not have the right to know. Look closer to home. When the FBI (CSIS) wiretaps your neighbor, a suspected drug dealer. You don't need to know what is said during the conversations do you? The same applies on a larger scope.

Sorry for the long delayed response, but I've been working.

I understand the need for security and secrets during a war, or in preparing for a war but: In answer to this question, When the FBI (CSIS) wiretaps your neighbor, a suspected drug dealer. You don't need to know what is said during the conversations do you? The long answer is yes. Once the court case is done and the sentence handed out, all of that information is public. If I want to read it I can. On the same line of thought, once the battle is done or the campaign resolved, then there is no reason why I (as a citizen of my nation) should not have full access to the battlefield information if I want it.

There is a time and a place for secrets, no one here will deny that but, the time isn't forever and not all things should be secret in the first place. At least not in a functioning democracy. Too many secrets, and the democracy doesn't function any more and then what are you left with?

P. S. Nice Don Henley "Dirty Laundry" reference... love that song.

OPSEC (Operational Security for you non-Nark types) is not the issue here.

What is at issue is the culture of deceit, cover ups, lies, and unlawful conduct that has become (always has been I might suggest) the hallmark of many Western Governments and those in power. These leaks, as Expat suggests, and as the US Dept of State and Defense Dept freely admit, are not putting lives directly at risk. What it is doing is bringing some accountability where previously there has been none, I stress "some," in the strictest sense of the word. There is a long way to go.

For that, I for one am grateful. Too many have become far too used to this culture over the last several decades, the last ten years in particular, and if we are to move forward at all, it is time to start doing something about it.

I'm not interested in reading about Government scandal after Government scandal, abuse after abuse, error after error - I'm interested in reading about how my Government is representing me in good faith abroad and serving me as citizen domestically. If Wiki has raised some awareness for the general public on the workings of Gov't, then it is a small step in the right direction.

I seem to remember our current PM running on a platform of transparency and accountability... FAIL, on both counts, and that is of grave concern to all citizens regardless of political leanings.

stl

Very nicely said. This makes my point better than I can make it myself.

I will end off with one of my favourite quotes from Douglas Adams about leadership.

The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

[reality check]

The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

Just heading to work, recording the Jets/Pats of course, but I'd like to say it's nice to see a proper discussion occurring for a change around here.

Also, the above is a fabulous quote, but there is no reason why it cannot be changed.

[grimey]

"Indiscriminate release of information can cause as much harm as it cures." Perhaps, but does not the systemic, routine, and habitual parade of cover-ups, lies, power abuses, and secrets cause a whole lot more harm than good? I submit it does, so do a lot of other people. I do find it interesting however - as I alluded to in one of my prior posts above - that people are so comfortable with the current state of affairs that they feel the need to rail against more information?!?! (It's like some sort of societal Stockholm Syndrome)

The entire culture of Gov't behavior needs a total reset, I'm not sure this will provide it, but I'd like to think it's a start.

Given the gross misuse of power, over and over again, I would also like to think that given an opportunity to have a greater understanding of the world that surrounds them, most people would choose a freer flow of information over the proverbial mushroom syndrome (kept in the dark and fed shit, b/c that is all we are now). It has been very interesting to watch this all go down, and the public's reaction to it.

stl

Yes, there are major problems in government with unethical actions or massive abuses of power. But I don't think that the indiscriminate release of information cures that, and it causes other problems, often for people who aren't at all to blame. I'm all for embarrassing an administration that is being dishonest as hell with the people who have elected it. Wikileaks is one way to do that, I simply think it goes too far.

I think a similar problem (in Canada and the US at least) is the ridiculous levels of partisanship in politics. Having the Liberal party cry wolf over every Conservative action (and vice versa in the previous parliament) prevents people from analysing the situation properly because of the crappy signal to noise ratio. Which issues should they really care about? Stupid but relatively harmless actions of the party (the conservatives handing out government grants on cheques branded with the party logo, for example) in power are given as much weight as serious abuses. In a way, Wikileaks is doing a similar thing. By not selectively releasing information, the public is left with the impression that there were thousands of small, stupid acts, but the larger crimes are hidden to a certain extent because of the huge nature of the release.

[sky's the limit]

I think a similar problem (in Canada and the US at least) is the ridiculous levels of partisanship in politics. .

I'm just in the process of working on an article about this very subject. I've made reference to it before on here, and like you, I simply can't believe how easy it is to divide people.

The average Canadian probably shares 75% or greater commonality of hopes, desires, and wishes with their fellow Canadian, yet we only allow focus to be put on the differences between us, however small they may be. We divide into partisan politics and the fight to the death over it. End result? We, as a populace, remain divided and powerless, which serves those in power quite nicely.

I see what you are saying about the nature of the Wiki release, but I don't share the same view of it. At this point I am happy we are getting anything. Through my travels I've seen so much that never gets either press play, or attention from the government, it simply is an unacceptable situation to me. You talk about the negative aspects of the release, and your point is valuable, but again I don't think it's even measurable on the same scale as the horror often unleashed by government officials operating with little to no accountability. Kissinger anyone?

stl

stl

[Sulako]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -hunt.html

Fascinating article about the allegations of sexual assault.

Oh, Assange turned himself into UK police this morning btw.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/12/0 ... awyer.html