Air Canada to buy $6 billion in new planes

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:14 pm

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/nation ... 50414.html

Only in the airline business. I wish I could go bankrupt and turnaround and buy a new home and car on credit

TTail · Post by **TTail** » Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:58 pm

I'll print it now and read during flight. Should be interesting to hear the new plans and long term benefits.

I'll be back

Lowjack · Post by **Lowjack** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 8:50 am

I was following a thread about this yesterday over at airliners.net
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/ge ... n/2053630/

It sounds like it could be quite the race to the finish line between Airbus and Boeing, both appear to have a lot at stake with this decision.

Although a 777 or 787 would look pretty spiffy flying around for AC in my opinion. And the timeline of the proposed A350 definitely isn't helping Airbus gain ground for the order.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say they announce at the Paris Air Show, and that they go boeing despite the long history with Airbus.

East Coaster · Post by **East Coaster** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 9:34 am

Lowjack wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb and say they announce at the Paris Air Show, and that they go boeing despite the long history with Airbus.

I think Airbus. They just bought those A345s. And their fleet it pretty much all Airbus, besides the 763s. I think they are going to stick with Airbus, unless Boeing makes them an offer they can't refuse.

Lowjack · Post by **Lowjack** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 10:54 am

Keep in mind that AC also wants the winning bidder to put winglets on some of its current 767 fleet. And this order is primarily intended for the international services and high density domestic. So the fact that they have the large Airbus fleet doesn't play to big a factor. The 330/340's and the two 345's can be easily taken by boeing and sold off from there.

Also the recent contract that the maintenance secured with Delta is a step to more boeing work. Little things that add up combined with boeing really putting the heat on this deal could make for a very unexpected outcome.

Wild Cat · Post by **Wild Cat** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:04 pm

I heard that the Airbus aircraft are significantly more espensive than the Boeing aircraft? True?

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:07 pm

I have a gut feeling that this will go to Beoing, although with delivery dates for either the 787 or 350 aircraft wouldnt be untill about 2010. (787 enters service in 2008 and orders are already filled) AC would have to be the launch customer for the A350 wich may have some advantages and disadvantages. But keep in mind that the Boeing 787 will have been in service for some time when AC can finally get deliveries and of course the 777 could beliverd sooner.

I think Boeing is really going to tap the market with the 777 and 787 combo. And IMHO Boeing aircraft are more suited for AC new direction of focusing on the International market

flynbutcher · Post by **flynbutcher** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 12:32 pm

I've been around for awhile now, but I never heard of a new 787 before. Must go and do some research.

Jaques Strappe · Post by **Jaques Strappe** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:34 pm

Butcher ........the 787 is the 7E7.

Milton is a huge Boeing fan and has always wanted 777's. The only reason Air Canada ended up with the A340 was because Airbus was able to match Boeing AND discount the remaining 319s' that were on order. Milton has stated that that was the deciding factor between the A340 and 777 last time around.

Seeing as how AC does not have any remaining deliveries on the books, I would say that Boeing has the advantage.

Cool Rythms! · Post by **Cool Rythms!** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:41 pm

I heard something about CRJ 900's as well. But instead of 90 seats, they will settle for 75 seats which are a little bigger and more comfortable.

The Hammer · Post by **The Hammer** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:38 pm

yeah buddy it's called the CRJ 705. Most legroom around (in economy) and a few J class seats as well. Throw in a personal entertainment in each leather seat back and you have the new plane for Jazz. Deliveries start May 2005 with 15 ordered with options for more . This airplane is a 900 certified to 75 seats to beat Air Canada pilot's scope clause.

727200er · Post by **727200er** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 2:37 am

Don't forget that Milton has stated before that he doesn't like the idea of all the aircraft coming from a single supplier. Also with a rather small fleet of Widebody Airbii, fleet commonality isn't that big of an issue. It would be quite interesting to see Boeing widebodies and Airbus narrows. I'm rooting for the 777/787 combo order.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:13 am

Yeah, you beat me to the punch, 72... I've heard the same thing. A one-type fleet does have its disadvantages, too, so I think AC will lean towards Boeing as well.

Simtech · Post by **Simtech** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:30 pm

What are the disadvantages of a one type fleet? Doesn't it cut down on maintenance and parts carrying costs? What about pilot and crew training costs?

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:48 pm

Well that is certainly the flip side of the coin... but it's good, from a buyer's point of view, to have a couple of options so you can play one manufacturer off the other, so to speak. If you have a one-type fleet and no plans to move from that, the manufacturer knows that he's got you and doesn't have be so accomodating.

727200er · Post by **727200er** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:58 am

Actually That's why I think that all Airbus narrows and all Boeing wides would be good. The spares commonality between narrows and wides in the Airbii is nonexistant. Going all Boeing with the wides but keeping the Airbus narrows would keep both companies on thier toes. Besides if what they are hinting about with the 737 replacement comes true, they might turn out to be a better option when the time comes to replace the 320 fleet. That makes for nice leverage at that time.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 12:15 pm

The problem is that the aircraft most in need of replacement (762) is the one whose replacement aircraft (787) isn't available right now. Some of the 762s are very aged and had a recent stay in MHV. The 763ERs are much newer and more likely to make the wingleting cost back over their AC lifespan surely.

gelbisch · Post by **gelbisch** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:28 pm

EI-EIO wrote:The problem is that the aircraft most in need of replacement (762) is the one whose replacement aircraft (787) isn't available right now.

These are all fairly long-term plans anyway, from what I understand, so I'm sure that that's all being factored in. Apparently rumours have been floating around AC about 777s for quite a while, too.

EI-EIO · Post by **EI-EIO** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:47 pm

If 773ERs are planned, hope the runways can take them! It seems AF's shiny new 773ERs are too heavy (per wheel) for ORY.

flyincanuck · Post by **flyincanuck** » Mon Apr 18, 2005 5:33 pm

Simtech wrote:What are the disadvantages of a one type fleet? Doesn't it cut down on maintenance and parts carrying costs? What about pilot and crew training costs?

Quite simply put - although highly improbable - if the manufacturer finds a catastrophic flaw and subsequently grounds the entire fleet (similar to the 737 rudder fiasco), you're pooched.

One of the most prominent entities in aviation is redundancy. Remove the concept of a variable fleet selection, and you've essentially removed any future ability to cope such measures.

Don't get me wrong...the single-type fleet has – and continues to be successful. My fingers are crossed for the WestJets, SouthWests, and Ryan Airs, in that nothing drastic transpires with their respective aircraft further down the road.

And one last point...notice that the above mentioned airlines are typically structured for domestic and short-medium range operations? Keep in mind that Air Canada operates outside these parameters, and therefore requires further redundancy.

Based on that reasoning, in my opinion, AC won't fall for an all-Airbus or all-Boeing fleet. And I’d love to see the 777!