City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

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City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by ScudRunner »

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/City+ ... story.html

For four decades the two vintage airplanes have sat largely neglected, but in recent years, their fate has sparked an antagonistic battle between two groups of aircraft enthusiasts.

Figuring out what will happen to the city-owned de Havilland Mosquito and Hawker Hurricane took a significant step forward Wednesday with a council committee recommending the city pitch-in $800,000 toward restoring the airplanes to museum quality, if matching funds can be found.

The decision, which will have to be approved by council, is being hailed as a victory for a group of local volunteers who want to work on the planes and keep them in Alberta.

But the decision is also being greeted with great disappointment by the Englishman who three years ago put a major offer on the table for the Mosquito.

Peter Vacher wants to acquire the Mosquito, which was built in 1946, and bring it back to flying condition. In return, he has offered to restore the Second World War era Hurricane to museum quality and hand it back to the city when the work is complete. On top of that, the collector and restorer has committed to creating a $1-million endowment fund for the Aero Space Museum of Calgary.

With Wednesday's decision, it appears that bid could be scuttled. Vacher said he now worries the volunteers don't have nearly enough expertise to properly restore the two aircraft.

Little has been done with two aircraft during the past decades, he said.

"The track record of those people who now say they are going to be able to restore it, I have to say, is dismal," Vacher said in a phone interview from his home in Oxfordshire. "Unfortunately, I think the council has been swayed on an emotional basis rather than, shall we say, a practical, hardheaded basis."

Vacher's offer has been hotly opposed by the Calgary Mosquito Aircraft Society, which on Wednesday dismissed claims it is not up to the task. The group says its members include some of the top aircraft restorers in Canada.

The head of the society, Richard de Boer, said there is a great deal of enthusiasm in the city for the aircraft, and he has no doubts the matching $800,000 can be found.

"There's no longer a threat of having to sell one to save the other," he said Wednesday. "That's nonsense. In this city, with the skills and passion, the drive, the money, and the interest to do this, we can easily manage both."

The society proposes to bring both aircraft to museum standard, but not restore the Mosquito to flying capability like Vacher would.

The group has also been sharply critical of Vacher's offer, which would see the city lose the Mosquito. But other aircraft enthusiasts have supported the collector's bid, believing his experience and money is needed to properly restore the airplanes.

They point out the council committee is turning away roughly $1 million, and have instead decided to spend nearly that much in taxpayers' money.

The Mosquito was brought to Canada in the 1950s and used for photo mapping. Veterans of the war also have a great deal of attachment to Mosquitoes as they fought in the Allied victory, although Calgary's plane did not.

rcuthbertson@calgaryherald.com
© Copyright (c) The Calgary Herald
Image


Anyone got a spare 800K? I'm sure their is some oil folks that like aviation around here with some spare cash. I would rather see them both restored to flying condition.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Pirate Pilot »

Are there any airworthy DH Mosquito's left flying anywhere in the world? I haven't read anything anywhere that would confirm that. It sure would be nice to see.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by North Shore »

From what I recall, restoring Mosquitos is dodgy at best. Glue technology wasn't at its best 60+ years ago, and the ensuing years of abuse haven't done the laminations any favours either...

FWIW, there's a Mossie undergoing restoration at Victoria Air Maintenance in CYYJ.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by ctmorawetz »

Apparently there is a Mosquito being restored in New Zealand. The article says it would be the only one flying in the world.http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-11-24_mosquito.asp
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Shiny Side Up »

Unfortunately this is a magnified version of the fate of many airplanes. It seems to be human nature for people to hang onto something they can't use/can't fix, and only become active about the subject when someone points it out to them. I see so many airplanes, old cars and other vintage, or in some cases not-so-vintage machines left to rot, but their owners refuse to part with them, even if it meant restoring life to the poor mechanical beast.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

Not sure if anyone's serious about this, but ...

IMHO the best way to do this, would be to create a reproduction Mosquito from scratch, using all-new wood and modern epoxy glue, using an original as a template. Any maybe you could steal a few bits of hardware from it, to make a bit of the heritage rub off.

A big undertaking, certainly. But at the end of it, you would have a quasi-Mosquito that would probably last for the next 70 years. It would surely look and fly and sound just like a real Mosquito, which would sort of be the point. And, it would do it safely.

Look at the interest the replica Gee Bee racers drummed up, years ago. Nobody slagged them for lack of pedigree, at least nobody I would listen to. Most people were fascinated by them. Sure, some dweebs like the Barrett-Jackson commentators might not like it, but screw them.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by SeptRepair »

There is currently a 3/4 scale mosi being built in Europe and looks to be a nice job. http://www.eaa.org/news/2010/2010-12-02_mosquito.asp. Problem with replicating a full scale version is needing off a least an original carcass to start with. If your going through the hassle of reverse engineering, then just replace what you have in front of you with modern techniques and practices and when all is said and done you essentially have an original (although it is really a data plate rebuild) and maintain a certain aspect of its providence. A higher resale value would be more prevalent in an original rebuild as opposed to a homebuilt version. I agree with Hedley, the nay sayers and critics who question providence are for the most part modelers and researchers and personally their opinions don't hold much weight when they lack ownership on what it is they are criticizing. I have yet to ever hear a warbird owner critic another aircraft because the paint tone was off or the wheels are inaccurate for the period. I wish the guys in Calgary luck, it is a monumental task restoring an aircraft of that magnitude.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

3/4 scale
I will admit to a personal and subjective bias against reduced-scale replicas. Apart from Reynolds number considerations, they smell just a bit like something you would see in a Shriner's parade. And the powerplants always seem to be something ridiculous, like a two-stroke Rotax.

IMHO Delmar Benjamin did it right:

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Post by Beefitarian »

I was on the fence and trying to stay out of here but you've changed my mind Hedley.

That's a seriously good plan. I wonder if the british dude would go for it. One of the complaints I heard from my father inlaw was, "What if they restore it and then crash and burn it?"

I was thinking it would be nice to see it restored to flying condition but in the defense of Aerospace museum's policy of rebuilding to static they never lose artifacts to crashes. Use it as a template build a replica and put the origional in the museum where it probably belongs.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

What if they restore it and then crash it?
Good question. IMHO there is a need for two different kinds of aircraft museums: non-flying and flying.

In Ottawa, we have the National Aviation Museum at Rockliffe which has static-only. I understand the need to preserve the priceless airframes, but they're dead. They don't smell like airplanes.

Over in Gatineau, there is Vintage Wings, which flies all their WWII aircraft. It's marvellous to hear them run, and see them fly. They are living, breathing, real aircraft. Yes, every time they fly, there is the risk that something will go wrong and the airframe and pilot will be lost. Old aircraft have more than their fair share of maintenance troubles, and it can be very difficult to find pilots who are proficient on type. Not a good combination. For example, Ed Russell's ME109 flew recently. Try to find a sharp 40 year old with 20,000 hours of high performance tailwheel time with 1,000 hours on Me109 type (typical bullsh1t HR ad).

Do the best maintenance you can, be the best pilot you can be, and fly that mother :wink:

Amazingly, many pilot are afraid to fly different/older aircraft. I suppose with good reason - they simply don't have the skill to ever master them. How depressing.

Anyways, IMHO, restore two. Put one in a non-flying museum, and fly the other. However be very choosy about who does your maintenance, and who flies it. My experience with some organizations is that the wrong people are often chosen to fly, often with disastrous results. Pilot selection should be based on skill, not politics, IMHO.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Beefitarian »

I gots 300 hours 172 & warrior. I should be just as good as the guys I heard about going over seas with 5 hours solo time to fly spits. I'm not skeerd, they won't even be shooting at me, le' me at 'em!

Ok I'm kidding but I'm not afraid, if I had the money I'd get type checked on P-51
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

I've flown a P-51D (actually a TF-51 cavalier). Yawn.

You've probably never heard of Rick Volker, but he's one of the best civilian pilots in Canada. He flies Unlimited category and airshows in his Sukhoi, and flies Ed Russell's Spitfire and Me109. I would gladly loan him any of my Pitts S-2B's for as long as he wanted, because I know he can fly it as well as I can.

Anyways Rick recently wrote an article for the IAC magazine about flying warbirds, and what he recommended was than any aspiring warbird pilot purchase a single-seat Pitts, and learn to fly it. According to Rick, if you can fly and land a single seat Pitts, you can fly and land any of the WWII fighters. I agree with Rick's opinion, having flown both.

So, you don't need to fork out $$$ for P-51 time. Buy yourself a single-seat Pitts and learn to fly aerobatics in it. Learn to unspin it, and learn to land it. Burn off 3 sets of tires. Then you can fly any of the WWII stuff.

It worked for Rick and me, anyways. Get 1,000 hours of Pitts time and learn to fly surface level aerobatics. We need more pilots like that in Canada.

PS I'd fly a mosquito - after I did a 100hr inspection on it :wink:
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Beefitarian »

I love/hate you a lot. I also have $60 so I'm going to buy a single seat pitts as soon as I find one I can afford then save up for fuel a tank at a time until I achieve that goal you just set for me.
I have thought about a pitts, they're not to badly priced sometimes either, though out of my current budget.
Would a two seater work? I know they are more expensive.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

Would a two seater work
Yes, of course, but two seaters are very expensive, because everyone wants one. However, 99% of the time, the front seat will be empty, so it is a waste.

A single-seat Pitts gives incredible bang for the buck. You can get them for us$25k to us$40k. Less than an 172.

The only people who need two-seat aerobatic airplanes are aerobatic instructors, and if you need to put a ferry tank in the front seat to fly across the Gulf of Mexico. There aren't many people like that in Canada.

Everyone wants a two-seat aerobatic airplane so they can rationalize taking wifey for a ride. Trust me when I tell you that wifey won't like it.

And it might be legal, but don't take pax doing aerobatics until you have a LOT more experience and are a de facto, if not de jure, aerobatic instructor. That lesson is written in blood.

Get a single seat Pitts. It doesn't have to have round wings and four ailerons. A flat-bottomed 2-aileron Pitts will teach you an awful lot.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Tubthumper »

What if they restore it and then crash it?

Like the last one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag5ut3tP3ZM

Would hate to see it happen again.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Meecka »

If anyone ever does get one flying in North America, I'd volunteer to work on it. Would fit right in with my other warbird time, that and I'd be able to use some of the manuals I inherited from my great grandfather. Hmmmm... I wonder if one of those would fit in our hangar in Gatineau??? Just a thought. :mrgreen:
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

That pilot didn't know what he was doing, regardless of how many hyphens he had in his name. You can tell simply by watching the video, even before he got into trouble, that he was not an experienced acro pilot. Sigh.

See previous comment of mine:
My experience with some organizations is that the wrong people are often chosen to fly, often with disastrous results. Pilot selection should be based on skill, not politics, IMHO.
At Oshkosh, Steve Hinton rolls the P-38 from the surface. He knows what he's doing, and makes it look easy. Hell, Steve's kid could have done a better roll in the Mosquito than that, but he grew up in aviation.

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/09/st ... air-races/
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Meatservo »

Hedley wrote:
3/4 scale
I will admit to a personal and subjective bias against reduced-scale replicas. Apart from Reynolds number considerations, they smell just a bit like something you would see in a Shriner's parade. And the powerplants always seem to be something ridiculous, like a two-stroke Rotax.
I couldn't agree more. As soon as I see the words "*/* scale" I lose interest in the replica. I'm not sure the Reynold's number issue would create any issue for the Joe-Blow observer, but surely the machine's physical dimensions are one of the key qualities you would want to replicate? And the little engines.. :roll: Well said Hedley.

Of course I 'm steering off topic. When it comes to the Mosquito, I think I'm slightly on-side with the Englishman who wants to buy it. And the offer he is making to the museum is quite generous.

I also think the airworthy vs. cosmetic issue would be more satisfying to me personally if the aircraft were to be restored to flying condition even if it was not intended to fly. I find it more meaningful to look at a machine that I know is in one piece inside as well as outside.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by boeingboy »

The one in Victoria is owned by the gentleman who owns Million air in YVR. It's the one that's been there for years undergoing restoration. He also owns a spitfire in airworthy condition.

The Mossie is almost done - when finished it's flying back to YVR
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by jspitfire »

boeingboy wrote:The one in Victoria is owned by the gentleman who owns Million air in YVR. It's the one that's been there for years undergoing restoration. He also owns a spitfire in airworthy condition.

The Mossie is almost done - when finished it's flying back to YVR
I got a shot of her back in 07 when she was still at Millionair. I'm not sure what the current status is, but that would be something to see it fly!

Image

(Here's my shot of his Spitfire too:http://www.airliners.net/photo/Supermar ... 1199346/L/ )
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by RatherBeFlying »

I remember meeting an DHC employee who built Mossies. The bosses wanted 1/64" tolerances in the plywood parts they were turning out -- breathe on it and the dimensions changed.

You could do a replica in fibreglass, but it would be heavier.

But the real problem was a VMC considerably greater than takeoff speed. Keeping those Merlins properly maintained helps the odds, but where do you find people good of Merlin maintenance.

I remember paxing as a kid on the North Star. The 4 Merlins were seriously noisy. Sis and me much preferred the Viscount.
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Last edited by RatherBeFlying on Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

where do you find people good of Merlin maintenance
um, lots of P-51's in the USA. At Reno they produce incredible power from Merlins. Far more than wartime. Can you say 130 inches of manifold pressure? I knew you could :wink:

Did you read the 1996 Mosquito accident report, from the video above? Really depressing. The inexperienced pilot insisted on using negative G during his acro, and apparently they had "problems" with one engine during negative G. I guess no one told these "warbird" pilots about what happened during WWII. Even in the accident report they expressed surprise that this information about carbureted Merlin engines had been forgotten - in Britain!

The first thing any experienced aerobatic pilot asks about an airplane is, "Does it have inverted fuel and oil systems?" For example, I fly a highly modified R-985 Stearman that has inverted fuel and oil. Nice. I can do negative G. However, in the PT-22 Ryan and PT-19 Fairchild and Citabria, negative G is not a good idea, so all aerobatics must be flown with positive G.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by ogc »

Hedley wrote:
That pilot didn't know what he was doing, regardless of how many hyphens he had in his name. You can tell simply by watching the video, even before he got into trouble, that he was not an experienced acro pilot. Sigh.
Out of curiosity, what did he do wrong?


Im interested to hear what your analysis is.
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by Hedley »

what did he do wrong?
Attempt aerobatics. He was completely unqualified to do so. It's clear simply from how he started the roll that he was over his head. At low altitude, no less. Sigh. Read the accident report if you really want to get depressed this evening.

When I see Steve Hinton or Dale Snodgrass or Freddy Cabanas or Gary Ward or Rob Holland or Skip Stewart or Sean Tucker fly, I immediately spot a master at the controls, regardless of what aircraft they are flying at the time. It is a pleasure to watch them work. Like watching Mark Knopfler or Eric Clapton play guitar.

It's not hard to evaluate a pilot's stick & rudder skills. Like pornography, you know it when you see it. I can tell you all about any pilot's stick & rudder skill in 120 seconds. Put both of us in aerobatic airplanes, and have him join up on my wing, and stay in position during some formation and gentle formation aerobatics.

If he is one of the tiny handful of people that can confidently join up inverted and stay in position during formation and formation aerobatics, you know that he's pretty serious about his stick & rudder skills :wink:
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Re: City urged to keep vintage aircraft YYC - Mosquito

Post by . ._ »

They're rebuilding a non-flying mossie down in Windsor too.

http://www.ch2a.ca/

Enter the site and check out the left for Mosquito stuff.

They got all the blueprints from the Smithsonian archives, if I remember correctly.
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