Is this what flight training has come too?

[comspazz]

NOTE: Company and student names removed by me to allow this thread to remain posted.----REMOVED----


Had a new student come to the school I work at the other week. The student came in to do a Multi rating and the IFR as well.

The same student had completed their CPL training at another school (all signed off and completed by the school) just the week before they left the school.
The student was told that to start the Multi training they would have to deposit $12,000.00 on account, which they did. The student then started the Multi rating there but had only done 5-6 hours in the sim before their twin went off line for maintenance. After a couple of days of delays (and excuses by the school) the student decided to complete their Multi training elsewhere. The student was told to put their withdrawal in a formal correspondence which the student did as shown below.

"
Hello Sir,
I am attaching the letter which saying that i am finishing my course from REMOVED and my ptr and money will be refunded to me .
So please pay the money and PTR a soon as possible

Thank you
REMOVED
REMOVED
lisence number : ca(REMOVED)

"


And here is the response from the school.......


"
Subject: RE: Termination From REMOVED
Date: REMOVED
Hello REMOVED,

Thank you for your email and termination letter. I guess until school like (The school I work at) are around, student pilot of your status with complete lack of aviation knowledge and skill level have a place to get your Canadian license. I wish you the best and please note we have finalized your account and you owe REMOVED a total of $4800 as of today. Please ensure your payment is made with in next 48 hours to us or we shall seek legal action against you and the REMOVED Airline you will be joining through our office in (FOREIGN COUNTRY).

At the same time I understand your friend REMOVED have completed his CPL Vocational training with this school (The school I work at) and has been given strike instructions from REMOVED never to come on our property as goes for you now at any time, unless coming to settle your tuition fee account.

I openly declarer that you are a danger to Aviation industry due to your lack of knowledge and skill level and an accident waiting to happen, I also state that you passed your Transport Canada written exam due to the exam set Q & A available to you prior to your written exam at Transport Canada and you copied the exam to pass the same. I have the evidence now of you’re cheating the Transport Canada exams to your sole benefit.

Thank you and please come and fly!

REMOVED
Vice President
REMOVED
Canada
"


The response email was also sent to other government agencies including TC and the Superintendent of the Ontario Private Career Colleges.
The student was told by TC, "that the school said that because the student had not started flying the twin yet there was no need to start a PTR", even though the student had told TC that an up-to date PTR was on file for the sim training.

As a Professional Pilot and Instructor I am outraged that this kind of thing continues to happen on a regular and frequent basis in the last 3-5 years, Yet no agency is able to do anything for or to help these and future students. Canada has had a reputation for great flight training worldwide since before world war one. I for one do not intend to stand by and let fly by night, money hungry individuals and operations like this to continue to RAPE and PILLAGE students at will.

What do you think? Is this normal operations at your school?



"keep paying the money and your a great student and a wonderful pilot. Don't like the quality of your training or don't do what the school demands and you are treated like the scum of the earth."

[trey kule]

keep paying the money and your a great student and a wonderful pilot. Don't like the quality of your training or don't do what the school demands and you are treated like the scum of the earth."

Well that pretty well sums it up. No real need to comment,

[Shiny Side Up]

What do you think? Is this normal operations at your school?

No, its not, though I know schools it does happen at. I'm not sure why people persist at going to those schools, and why people are always so willing to pony up so much cash up front for flight training. When people fork out so much cash do they get any sort of contract from the school at the very least? Do they read the fine print when signing up for a "program" like this one?

The only real way these kinds of operations are going to cease to exist are when people stop working for them and being customers of them. Unfortunately there's a sucker who wants to fly born every minute.

[CpnCrunch]

I think the only solution is for the student to take the flight school to court. In fact, most likely it won't even come to that - if the student just puts everything calmly in writing and threatens legal action if the payment is not made within 30 days, the idiot will very likely back down and give the money back. You can't let these bullies get away with this sort of thing.

[North Shore]

I'm with Crunch ^. Straight to lawyer's office, don't pass go, collect $12000 - 6 sim sessions..

'Canadians' like that should be given a good a$$-kicking by the rest of us for giving us all a bad name..

[Bushav8er]

While I agree that schools like this be reported and put out of business, especially if they are under the Private Career College Act - see if this helps the students - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/new.html, and search here and see if the school in question is listed - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/notices.html. Let me flip the coin to the other face. (Granted these students had money on account). I knew a student that came from another school to finish his PPL. He did his flying 'on credit', a common thing back when this happened. When the end of the month came he asked for more time, continued flying and then skipped with his log book signed by the instructor(s) no PTR back then. He was later seem at an other school doing the same thing. He finished his PPL AND CPL on the credit of the schools.

[comspazz]

As you can see from the response of this school they very quickly threaten and take legal action against any students that leave the school because they are unhappy about the quality of their training and/or treatment by the school. They smear and besmirch the students and the schools they move on to. Many students are from overseas and are unaware of their rights, and are scared "to rock the boat" because of the threats of calling immigration. I have seen too many instructors not show any interest in how their students (i.e.-customers) are treated by their schools.

I am not trying to "take down the competition", I just want to bring this behavior to light. I have seen this type of behavior and attitude from more than a few schools first hand and i makes me sick and embarrassed to call myself a flight instructor in Canada.

[Bede]

Comspazz,

I think you should be naming the school until the mods take it down. People need to be warned of such frauds. My advice is to immediately file a Plaintiff's Claim in Small Claims Court. This company could be at the verge of going under and you want your money ASAP. If your friend can't get a lawyer, tell him to send me a PM; I'm not a lawyer, but I've done Ontario SCC many times and have yet to lose. I'd be more than happy to guide him through the process.

Good luck to your friend.

[Hedley]

There is an old saying that good fences make good neighbors. A little cryptic, I know but good financial boundaries will make everyone happier, too.

I keep telling people that they should

NEVER PUT MONEY ON ACCOUNT

with any FTU, but no one ever listens. Similarly, I simply cannot imagine a flight school allowing a student to ring up a "tab". I've never heard of an FTU that slow, in 35 years.

It's really simple: pay in full at the end of every flight. You're nuts if you do anything else.

Imagine you meet a hooker on a street corner, and she tells you her normal price is $150 per, but if you give her $10,000 cash up front, you can get it at $100/per twice a week for the next year.

Do you honestly think you would ever see her again after you give her the $10,000 cash?!!

NEVER PUT MONEY ON ACCOUNT

Words fail me when someone complains, "I thought the FTU was honest", or "I thought the hooker was honest".

[Bushav8er]

I've never heard of an FTU that slow, in 35 years.

LOL, that'd be about right, I did say 'back when this happened.'. Flying Clubs were nice friendly, trusting places once.

[Shiny Side Up]

I've never heard of an FTU that slow, in 35 years.

LOL, that'd be about right, I did say 'back when this happened.'. Flying Clubs were nice friendly, trusting places once.

We used to have an honor sort of system for aquiring fuel after hours here - like many small airports. Lets just say there's a reason there's less friendly, trusting places out there.

[Stevo226]

While I agree that schools like this be reported and put out of business, especially if they are under the Private Career College Act - see if this helps the students - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/new.html, and search here and see if the school in question is listed - http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general/notices.html. Let me flip the coin to the other face. (Granted these students had money on account). I knew a student that came from another school to finish his PPL. He did his flying 'on credit', a common thing back when this happened. When the end of the month came he asked for more time, continued flying and then skipped with his log book signed by the instructor(s) no PTR back then. He was later seem at an other school doing the same thing. He finished his PPL AND CPL on the credit of the schools.

Nothing on there, i believe that list is driven by the PCC enforcements.

PPC IS A JOKE

Two and a half years of complaints about the same school and they still won't touch them with a ten foot pole

[Walker]

Forgive my ignorance here but funds deposited in account are technically held "held in trust" for the purposes of the flight training correct?
My understanding is if X gave Y $100 under the pretext that Y was going to do something (provide training) and Y managed to F-it up X was entitled to her/his whole $100 back.
With trusts if Y is a company and goes bust trying to pay X back, then the directors of said firm are on the hook (one of the few times .Ltd isn't that limited)
Student should initiate a claim for a refund of her/his training with the provincial regulatory body, and press the big red button labeled "lawyer".

X2 on posting the unedited correspondence...

Also X2 on DO NOT PUT MONEY ON ACCOUNT!!!!

We stopped doing that YEARS ago, you fly $200 you pull out the visa and pay $200, simple no muss, no fuss.

[square]

Are you kidding?? Was this a Canadian school or a foreign one?

People like that should be lined up and shot. With all the shit you have to deal with once you get a licence, to have people (I use that term loosely) using students like this before they get a shot is appalling. Release the names!

[cgzro]

The rate of bankruptcy of aviation related buisness is unfortunately very high.
As a result any money that you lend to them should be considered a high risk investment.

You would be better to take your 10,000 and stick it in a some high risk mutual fund for the summer. You'd be far more likely to end up ahead that way than banking on savings from buying a block of hours.

[Walker]

Frankly the reason the bankruptcy rate is so high is ludicrous market saturation. Too many people in the industry, and too many people NOT doing it for financial reasons.
1/2 the number of commercial schools in the country and you would see a paradigm shift in EVERYTHING to do with this industry.

[trey kule]

Just a couple of quick comments. Unless a company has a specific trust account, or trust agreement, monies deposited on account are not being held in trust. Lots of case law to back up my opinion.

I guess I can also add the simple solution: dont put any money down on account. And dont expect the FTU to extend credit. But then others have already posted that and it doesnt seem to be registering.

As to the suggestion that if we did away with 1/2 of the flight schools , the system would change..maybe..if you could figure out the half to get rid of that included the scums and the useless instructors..

[Shiny Side Up]

One thing to keep in mind though is that there are plenty of means a school can use to legally keep money put on account for flying. The easiest is to associate themselves with a college or university. In the small print there's usually a clause where you agree to forfeit monies on account if you violate any of your training agreements which can involve, but not limited to, things like maintaining your non-flying grades, showing on time for lessons, or just plain poor performance in flying lessons. While this may seem reasonable to a new student - and there are ways of course that other learning institutions do this sort of thing, flight schools who operate this way are usually intending on washing out a percentage of their applicants from the start. Its a source of revenue for them and also makes them look good with the results - ever wonder about some places that guarantee that if you graduate you will have met a certain high standard?

Personally I wouldn't make the assumption that a school has left themselves open to legal action in this regard. Did the student in this case sign any agreements beforehand?

It is true though that in many cases I've seen, the student who's lost money has been unwilling to pursue action to get it back, so it is possible that a particularly bad operation gambles when they think they can make some easy cash off an individual. The worst thing is in the case of many younger students, since its loan money/mom's money they just don't care. I've had lots of students show up all to willing to fork loads of money over so they don't have to take care of it themselves. "Here's the money, make me into a pilot." Historically of course, young students aren't the wisest people with their money, go visit anyplace where they are in number.

[trey kule]

young students aren't the wisest people with their money, go visit anyplace where they are in number.

A very good point, but try telling that to the public school board and the police.(smiley thing here which is beyond my computer skills)...actually a smiley thing in a trenchcoat)

[Beefitarian]

I don't know if you'll like this story but it's a favorite of mine. I remember before I started flying talking to a guy taking lessons and he excitedly told me about the account system this FTU had. They would match his money on account thus doubling his account's worth. Put $2000 in and you would have $4000 on account, I thought that was impressive.

I later found out that the money they matched you for was a loan at some astronomical interest rate that I honestly could not imagine anyone falling for. It was possibly 10% higher than credit cards at the time, like visa charged 18% and they would charge students 28% or something crazy.

I remember getting a good deal at the Calgay Flying Club in the early 1990s, if you put $1000 on account they would give you 5% I think it was. I also have watched a lot of schools come and go since then. It seems to be a pretty volitile business. Even if they are not crooked if they go broke with your money you'd be pretty close to last on the list of people to get paid back during recievership.

I'll ride the Do not put money on account. band wagon.

[cgzro]

For a 5% savings its simply not worth taking the risk. Like I said, stick it in a mutual fund and youll likely turn 5% in a year.

[comspazz]

Sorry I didn't explain the money thing better. The students don't put their flight training monies in the school's account.

The school tells the students that they are required to open a joint bank account (with the school having free access to withdraw money from the account anytime). They tell them that this will make it easy for billing. You don't do it you don't get your visa approved or you don't fly at the school.

The school is then free to withdraw from the account any time they see fit to do so. Hidden fees and arbitrary bills are withdrawn before you know it (the money is gone and all you can do is argue with them till your blue in the face). 5 minutes late for a lesson or class and the money has already been withdrawn.

[GoinNowhereFast]

That just sounds like a scam.
If I can't pull out my credit/debit card or cash after a flight and pay that way, then I'm not interested.

[Beefitarian]

For a 5% savings its simply not worth taking the risk. Like I said, stick it in a mutual fund and youll likely turn 5% in a year.

It was 15 years ago.

[CpnCrunch]

It sounds like a scam/fraud operation and should probably be reported to the police:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/scams-fraudes/rep-sig-eng.htm

Either that or we should all get together with pitchforks and run them out of town