Most important type of flying in aviation?

[Cat Driver]

My personal opinion is flight training.

To be a top notch teacher of flying is the highest aspiration a pilot can have.

[Rudderless]

I agree. What someone learns from you shows in their work, and gets passed on. It's a good feeling to see a student do well in their career, and realize that perhaps you have had some influence in their attitude or flying skills.

[Cougar]

Well said.

The best teachers (of any kind) never do know exactly how far their influences will reach.

I'm reminded of lots and lots of stories -- but I'll just sum up and say, the positive effects of even one good instructor are immeasurable... and pretty amazing, really.

[oldtimer]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with .. Only problem in Canadian aviation is the general feeling that the instructor route is just a step up to a real flying job. Hours in the old log book. Now the military, especially the US military, seem to have it right whereby some young buck, full of piss and vinegar, gets to fly the go-fast stuff in harms way but if they survive, they are rewarded with an instructors position where they are held in great esteem. Before I retired, I spent waiting time in a flight school. I found that most of the instructors were last years students. They could talk the talk but when it came to real life situations, they didn't know come'er from sic'em. The company hired some of them to fly the company turboprops and these instructors were bright, enthusiastic, learned quickly and generally did an excellent job but when it came to flying an airplane, they were as green as grass. Then I spent some time in a sim in the USA with high time ex-everything pilots who semi retired as instructors and they were great. Very knowledgeable and willing to teach. And teach they did.
My mother was a school teacher and she had to spend a year or so in Normal school just to learn how to teach. Nowadays, a flight instructor can almost learn his trade well enough to get TC's blessing in a weekend. Doesn't seem right but that is the way it is.

[Bushav8er]

I completely agree ..

Oldtimer, you beat me to it -

Only problem in Canadian aviation is the general feeling that the instructor route is just a step up to a real flying job. Hours in the old log book.

Instruction should be, could be, a profession unto itself and paid accordingly. Sadly what you said is more often the case.

[Cat Driver]

Hopefully this thread will remain in this mind set and we all can discuss this in a positive manner.

Few here really know or understand me and what I really believe.

But one thing I truly believe and that is there is nothing in aviation as important as a good teacher.

A good teacher can produce a high quality pilot in a time frame that will allow said teacher to be paid a fair wage.

[Hedley]

Few here really know or understand me

It's simply an age thing, .. The reward for living a long time is being steadily alienated. Imagine if someone from the 1600's was still alive today - what he would he think about our strange new world?

Back to flight training. I think it was MichaelP that hit the nail on the head with the "Walmart-ization" of flight training, as he described it. I'm not much into the Walmart flight training. I would rather produce one pound of steak instead of 100 pounds of hamburger, but that's not how you run a business.

[cdnpilot77]

Hopefully this thread will remain in this mind set and we all can discuss this in a positive manner.

Few here really know or understand me and what I really believe.

But one thing I truly believe and that is there is nothing in aviation as important as a good teacher.

A good teacher can produce a high quality pilot in a time frame that will allow said teacher to be paid a fair wage.

Good to have you back ., I have been fortunate to have some very good instructors and am forever grateful to them

[square]

Flying subsidized pop and chips to the reserve! Otherwise how else would they manage to stay up in the middle of nowhere??

[Cat Driver]

The FAA have it right allowing a flight instructor to run a training business without the need for a fiasco like TC requires with the FTU.

When I owned a flight school it never ceased to amaze me how the instructors feared TC.

Get rid of the rule through fear and the quality of training may improve a lot.

[Liquid Charlie]

Ironically most of us are not cut out to be instructors - they form the foundation of our industry/recreational flying - dedicated instructors are few and far between -

[Cat Driver]

dedicated instructors are few and far between -

It is difficult to remain dedicated when you are starving to death and can't afford to live at the poverty level.

[Changes in Latitudes]

I'd become a dedicated flight instructor in a heartbeat if there were any sort of money to be made in it. A flight instructor, especially one with solid experience, should be paid on par with a professor at a major university. The best professors that I had in both my undergraduate and graduate programs were the ones that worked solidly their entire lives, got their hands dirty, and returned to academia in their "more experienced" years. Aviation should be no different.

These high priced aviation colleges and universities should be looking to this direction.

[Liquid Charlie]

It's a sorry statement to make. Costs are already high but there should be room to give flight instructors a reasonable salary. Is there any reason except for being "organized" why a school teacher's salary could not be a standard reference level -

[Bushav8er]

Shouldn't instructors be paid on par with their non-training counterparts? Class 4 like a new dockhand/180 driver or Ho FO, a class 3 like the Beaver pilot or Ho Capt, Class 2 as a King Air capt etc? Not that those guys are paid much better but from what I've heard about instructors, seems they are better off.

Some will argue 'no money' but that's the age old cry of everyone running an aviation anything. Strangely they also claim 'started with a 185 and now we have 6 aircraft'. It's a business, run it as such but not on the backs of those that actually make you a business, treat them well and they may stick, reducing training costs and building a quality product.

[Cat Driver]

Maybe someone could start up a franchise business for flight training whereby a high level of flight instruction with well paid instructors could be guaranteed.

First of course TC would have to drop the FTU requirement where they have a strangle hold on the industry.

Just imagine a scenario whereby once a flight instructor rating is issued the regulator allows the holder of the license to actually use it without TC micro managing every minute of their lives.

[Highflyinpilot]

[quote]It is difficult to remain dedicated when you are starving to death and can't afford to live at the poverty level.[/quote]


BINGO, I would love to put in my time and eventually come back as an instructor with some "experience", and i would probably do it till retirement. But im not one to want to live in a cardboard box sharing a box of kd with my daughter every day of the week.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Maybe someone could start up a franchise business for flight training whereby a high level of flight instruction with well paid instructors could be guaranteed.

I've been dreaming about this utopia of flight instruction for a long time Cat, and aviation is a sad business business when it comes to quality vs cost. We live in a lowest price dominated society and there will be no changing that. Even the giant aeronautical universities in the US are using entry level 200-1000 hours candidates to train people who are shelling out $120k for their "education". Those guys barely make enough to get by, get credit towards their tuition then bolt for the 18,000 salaries shelled out by the regionals. Lovely system.

Believe me, I've thought on it long and hard. For me, there would be nothing more rewarding than a well-traveled career which concluded by working with a quality flight training provider, giving back all of the bits of wisdom that I had stumbled upon along the way. Not on the cards, I'm afraid. Funny enough, Flight Safety and CAE would hire me at that point.

[Bushav8er]

First of course TC would have to drop the FTU requirement where they have a strangle hold on the industry.

I've always felt that it should be:

Feds, re TC, make the rules/laws.

Individuals request the info as to where those rules are, then submit a simple form stating what they intend to do and proving they are entitled to do it (business license, licences, insurance etc). TC then records the individual/business in their records. Done.

Now TC knows who is operating, where and what, and the operator may now be subject to a visit to ensure they are following said 'rules'.
Everything is in the CARs and every pilot, Operations Manager knows this. No need for extra paper work and 'approved' Manuals. There are enough rules in aviation and business to charge or shut down those that fail after the '3 strikes'. The 3 strikes being weighed against a 'safety', 'civil' and 'economic' scale.

aviation is a sad business business when it comes to quality vs cost.

Sadly aviation actually costs more than people would (it seems) be willing to pay for it. It will never disappear as its such an important industry but if everyone had to pay what it really costs, I wonder.

[Cat Driver]

It is interesting to note that during my struggle with TC to get approval for a FTU they kept failing my PRM candidates which included a very long time AME and a Class 1 instructor.

Finally just before I was completely out of money and a year and a half had passed I submitted myself as the PRM.

They failed me at the interview.

[Bushav8er]

It is interesting to note that during my struggle with TC to get approval for a FTU they kept failing my PRM candidates which included a very long time AME and a Class 1 instructor.

Finally just before I was completely out of money and a year and a half had passed I submitted myself as the PRM.

They failed me at the interview.

They were out for you. I would have found someone, out of Region, that was approved and see what happen...that'd have made your case. Being subject to rules that you break is one thing, fighting a 'personality' is another.

[Meatservo]

I agree, but I have a comment to make: Your responses to .'s comment seem focused on primary flight instruction. While this is an honourable sentiment, why not consider also the role of the training captain at an airline? I think this is also important, and I am tempted to say particularly so at a small air service where you can develop a relationship with everyone you train. You may be the first exposure to the world of "flying for work" that the putative professional pilot gets, and this might shape the individual's whole outlook for the rest of his/her life. I think it's very important. If you can infuse some enthusiasm and excitement along with some solid safety attitudes and self-confidence, as well as airmanship, (all of which are sometimes conspicuously lacking in the new hire), you can really have an impact on the individual's lifetime work experience thereafter. Trying to drum up the aforementioned excitement and enthusiasm after a lifetime of flying for hire can sometimes be a trial, but well worth it when you see the former "new guy" take off in his new career.

[Just another canuck]

why not consider also the role of the training captain at an airline? I think this is also important,

I was going to say the same thing... IMO, it's much more important than initial flight training. I think, in many cases, new pilots forget a lot of what happens in flight school and focus solely on what they must achieve in their new job. Initial flight training is definitely MOST important when it comes to PPL's and Rec pilots, but for those going into the commercial world, it is their first job/employer/company that shapes them into the pilots they will become forever.

[Beefitarian]

Flying subsidized pop and chips to the reserve! Otherwise how else would they manage to stay up in the middle of nowhere??

I'm thinking this and/or condoms for UNICEF.

[Cat Driver]

I agree, but I have a comment to make: Your responses to .'s comment seem focused on primary flight instruction. While this is an honourable sentiment, why not consider also the role of the training captain at an airline?

Exactly, who it is you are training is not as important as your quality of training.

Unfortunately there are few industry training captains that are motivated to teach in the micro controlled FTU sector for two reasons.

The first is the hourly pay is an insult.

Secondly they generally would be unable to teach in the mindset that TC demands.

Hedley has it correct, start them out on a Cub on a grass field and once they master the stick and rudder skills then finish the training on a FTU airplane.