Thunder MU2 in Armstrong

[Doc]

Calling off that flight would have been a tough decision. I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Imagine yourself heading to pick up someone injured or sick. You know that these guys don't file reports when their work is done. You can't get ahold of anyone at the airport. They said they were clearing it in the earlier NOTAM. You've got a new employer and you're not sure how they will react (I'm not sure if this part is true but I think I heard something about a merger with Bravo.)

I guess decisions like these are why we make the big bucks, but these guys got screwed by their situation I think.

That's the reason we have these little incidences in the first place. Misguided "perceived" pressure to "get the job done". I don't care how "injured or sick" your passenger is, if you don't conduct these flights in the same manner that you conduct all flights, you're a fool. Not to call anyone a "fool" but a medevac is NO more important than any other flight. Once this simple fact is learned, we'll stop hearing about these "necessary" flights......common sense here, people. No information...no go. REAL simple.

[the_professor]

When in doubt call the airport yourself to get an accurate runway condition and or clearing report.

Yeah. Duh.

These rice rocket guys weren't thinking.

[Oor Wullie]

That would be completely false. I've landed on snow covered runways in everything from C150 to B737. Snow depth is completely relevant. As another poster wrote, every northern airstrip in the winter is snow covered

I'm thinking someone has not read his post closely -- it is irrelevant as far as being able to determine the depth - 1/4 inch of unbroken snow looks the same as 2 feet -- I'm thinking that is the point he was trying to make -- white on white will lie to you and to land on a runway with a layer of snow is a crap shoot without the ground based report.

Thank you.

When I KNOW it to be 1/4 inch....fine. When I DON'T know the depth.... I GTFO. There was no contact with the airport personnel.

[Bushav8er]

When in doubt call the airport yourself to get an accurate runway condition and or clearing report.

Yeah. Duh.

These rice rocket guys weren't thinking.

That is one of the issues with Armstrong - trying to get anyone, anytime, on the phone. Flying only when you can get a report from the airport would shut Armstrong down. I won't comment on if thats a good thing or not. Most places see a traffic drop and say - 'close/sell the airport.' Instead of asking - 'why is there no traffic?'

[Bede]

Hey Doc,

Welcome back. You raise an interesting point and I'd like your input on a hypothetical situtation.

Here is a hypothetical situation:
It's night, your a bit tired (not falling a sleep, but not A game either). It's some reserve up north. Weather is to minimums, compact snow runway, wind at crosswind limits (you can do it). GPS is MEL'd, so NDB approach only.
There is a patient who is guaranteed to die if you can't medevac them out, but is guaranteed to live if you get them out. Do you go?

Now on the flip side, the patient is "feeling unwell" or any other BS call you've seen a million times up north. Do you still go despite the suboptimal conditions?

[toelessjoe]

Easy, you go. Bring a shovel. If patient is on stretcher and obviously in need of medical care you give yourself a pat on the back. If patient walks to the plane you hit him with the shovel. Now he needs a medivac. Give yourself a pat on the back. Throw away shovel.

[Doc]

Hey Doc,

Welcome back. You raise an interesting point and I'd like your input on a hypothetical situtation.

Here is a hypothetical situation:
It's night, your a bit tired (not falling a sleep, but not A game either). It's some reserve up north. Weather is to minimums, compact snow runway, wind at crosswind limits (you can do it). GPS is MEL'd, so NDB approach only.
There is a patient who is guaranteed to die if you can't medevac them out, but is guaranteed to live if you get them out. Do you go?

Now on the flip side, the patient is "feeling unwell" or any other BS call you've seen a million times up north. Do you still go despite the suboptimal conditions?

Thanks Bede. I'm going to go out of my way to be "helpful" on this visit back, and not stir up too much shit! LOL.
Makes me happy I don't do medevacs any more.
Bottom line, the guarantee you speak of just never really exists.
Snow covered runways, especially viewed at night, can be 2 inches or 2 FEET deep. There is really no way of knowing. I put a Two-Otter into Paint Hills many years ago in about two feet of snow. I was really happy it was a Two-Otter!
If a township/community wants to "call in" a medevac in the middle of a winter's night, it's incumbent on that community to maintain the runway. Otherwise, scratch it off your "to do" list.
Now, to stir it up a little. Medcom, the delightful folks who dispatch all these medevac flights should get off their collective asses, and make certain that the destinations are "doable" at least as far as the community involvement is concerned. If there is no winter maintenance, don't dispatch flights there.
To answer your question, my "go, no-go" decision is never based on "perceived" urgency. I can't fly the poor sick chap out, if I roll the airplane into a ball going in, now can I? In your example, I'd go have a look, not because it's a medevac, but because it is a doable scenario. I would however, if I didn't like what I saw, exercise my right to "miss" the approach.

[trey kule]

Help me out here.
As I understand it..
1. the runway was notam'd as snow covered.
2. the notam was still in force at the time of landing.

The comment that the runway was being cleared is , in my mind, just that. It seems that the comment however was used to assume that the notam would be cancelled. The issues of forgetting to cancel the notam or advise of the cleared runway are different issues.

The sense I have, at this point, is the crew chose to ignore the NOTAM based on a comment within it. The other issues of pressure , inability to confirm by an independent source etc, are really begging the question. Perhaps NOTAMs have changed in Canada, but when a runway is NOTAMed off, it remains unusable until the NOTAM is cancelled or replaced. Who is liable if that does not happen as it is supposed to is a different issue. The comment would have value as one could then delay for an hour or so and see if the NOTAM was cancelled or revised...but making an assumption to that effect..well, no sense in issuing NOTAMs if pilots are going to ignore them

The crew made an errounous assumption. The reasons for doing so are not really valid, as there simply should have been no assumptions made at all.

Landing in a few inches of snow is dangerous ..As to the poster who posed hypothetical situations...how about this one.....a wrecked plane. What would have happened if someone had been hurt? Regardless of the comments about plowing being underway, if the NOTAM was in effect the pilots should not have been attempting a landing.

[J31]

I’m with Doc on this. The air ambulance standard is to operate safely and without delay but do not risk other people’s necks regardless of patient status.

This crew was reckless operating into a strip without positive confirmation that the runway had been cleared. No medivac is so urgent that pilots should take chances like that.

[2R]

Some folks never let the facts get in the way of their posts.
The Notam clearly stated that work was in progress.
If folks where not allowed to land on runways with a little covering of snow.Medevacs flights would be grounded in most of Canada for nine months of the year.
If you guys want to lynch somebody why not start with the guy who pulled a Walkerton(small town liars who put other health at risk through their lies and incompetance and failure through incompetance or deliberate stupidity) and LIED about work in progress and that underneath that snow was ICE.The notams that came out when they finally got the snow off the runway had the runways 90 percent ice covered .The person responsible for issuing those inaccurate and incomplete Notams needs a kick in the nuts.
Perhaps only helicopters should be sent to Armstrong until they can get someone trained on how to be accurate about what they say and what they should say when it comes to NOTAMS regarding runways.And when they need to say sorry folks but if Gatwick and Heathrow can close for snow so can Armstrong.
Try to stick to the facts please ladies

[trey kule]

OK 2R..Lets stick to the facts...lady.

tell me, did or did not the crew land on a runway that was NOTAM ed off?

The clear, as you put it, comment that cleaning was underway, may just tell an old guy llike me that it is time to put the coffee pot on and have a cup rather than put the plane away.
But...and this is a fact, it does not cancel the NOTAM. You can bounce around the issue all you like, but when it comes down to it, if you try to land on a closed runway you are in the wrong...blame the operators...point fingers rationalize the heck out of it with death and saviors...but if you land on a closed runway you are in the wrong...and apparently this runway was closed.

The lesson here is that when a runway is notamed closed , pilots should not start making assumptions based on a "clear comment". If an incident unhappily occurs with a patient than let the chips fall where they may with the operator..but when pilots make decisions to ignore NOTAMs they will hopefully accept the consequences.

And as a post script this is one of those situations that I consider a learning experience(an honest error in judgement)as long as the pilots dont try to shuffle off the blame..And it is predicated that the NOTAM was in force when they landed.

[Doc]

I’m with Doc on this. The air ambulance standard is to operate safely and without delay but do not risk other people’s necks regardless of patient status.

This crew was reckless operating into a strip without positive confirmation that the runway had been cleared. No medivac is so urgent that pilots should take chances like that.

Well, when I flew medevacs in Ontario, it seemed to be medcom's mandate to "push" pilots. I've spent countless hours on the phone arguing with these turkeys. The weather could be zero zero in elephant snot, these twits would still try to talk me into going. Really.
I wouldn't call anybody "reckless", here. Unlucky. perhaps. I know the skipper. He's as experienced in the area as one can be. Believe me, if he'd have had any reason to suspect all was not as it should be, he would never have departed.
Seriously though, I'd feel more comfortable going into about any reserve at night, than Armstrong. Armstrong has a ROAD, therefore the runway isn't as important to them.

[Cat Driver]

I was flying medevacs over forty years ago in 705 type airplanes and learned to never believe anything that was told to me regarding weather or runway conditions.

However having read this part of TC's comments on the subject I have a question.

Narrative: UPDATE TSB Occurrence No. A10C0206: Thunder 855, a Mitsubishi MU-2 registration C-GAMC was a medevac flight en route from Geraldton to Armstrong Ontario. Earlier in the day the crew checked a NOTAM for Armstrong which indicated that the runway was 100% snow covered, but that snow removal was in progress. Believing that the runway would be clear upon their arrival, the crew conducted a night VFR approach with precision approach path indicator (PAPI) guidance to runway 30. When the aircraft touched down the left main wheel dug into the snow covered surface of runway 30 and veered off to the left eventually departing the runway surface. The aircraft sustained substantial damage to its fuselage, right wing and right propeller. The runway had not been plowed. After the accident, Nav Canada personnel were unable to contact airport operations personnel, and issued a NOTAM to close the airport.

Was the runway actually notamed closed before the incident?

[Commonwealth]

Interesting comment about a road into a community. It seems to me that communities need a wake up call when it comes to the operation of their airports. I know I am speaking in broad sweeping terms here, but without road access, in my opinion, a runway is the single most important piece of infrastructure in any community. That runway is responsible for bringing in the food, treating the sick and injured (medevac), and delivering new born babies from hospitals in the south... The list goes on. Whether it is a community operated airport, or the responsibility of the Provincial/Territorial governments, the neglect of this infrastructure is a detriment to the entire community.

For pilots, all this sh*t ends up right in our laps. For the most part we manage the risks effectively. The communities need to step up here and take some pride in themselves. Do you care about your fellow citizens? Of course you do, now get out there, plow the runway and make your community a better place to live.

Sorry to rant, and I realize there are quite often underlying social conditions at work here, but am I the only one who is tired of this??

CW

[J31]

I was flying medevacs over forty years ago in 705 type airplanes and learned to never believe anything that was told to me regarding weather or runway conditions.

However having read this part of TC's comments on the subject I have a question.

Was the runway actually notamed closed before the incident?

No it was Notam'd closed after the incident. The original Notam had the runway snow covered.

[Doc]

I was flying medevacs over forty years ago in 705 type airplanes and learned to never believe anything that was told to me regarding weather or runway conditions.

However having read this part of TC's comments on the subject I have a question.

Was the runway actually notamed closed before the incident?

No it was Notam'd closed after the incident. The original Notam had the runway snow covered.

"Snow covered runway.." In Northern Ontario? In December? Don't think I've ever made the mistake of landing on a snow covered runway! Imagine? The fool hardy recklessness!
If you want to CLOSE a runway......CLOSE THE RUNWAY!! Don't sucker punch some poor crew into taking the blame for you @#$! ups! If your community can't maintain a runway in the winter, pilots will be more than happy NOT to operate medevacs to your airport.
I know, in this business there's always blame. In my book, it lies with the community of Armstrong. Blame for not maintaining their airport. Blame for not issuing a NOTAM stating that the runway was closed. Hopefully somebody's lawyers will seek restitution from that direction.

[Floyd]

Trey Kule perhaps you show heed your own advice and stick to the facts. The runway was notamed ploughing in progress not closed. I don't know where you fly but it is probably in Southern Ontario because up north there are rarely cancelling notams there are just notams that eventually replace them. On the weekend notams that ploughing is in progress might last until Monday. Basically we shouldn't fly on the weekends which I can't say I am opposed to.

[Cat Driver]

the crew conducted a night VFR approach with precision approach path indicator (PAPI) guidance to runway 30.

So it seems they had the PAPI visible during the approach in the dark, which means they must have had runway lights visible also.

How do you tell if the runway had been recently plowed under those conditions?

[Flying Low]

Having worked for this operation; Armstrong is one of those places where you have little info. I have done exactly what this crew did. Checked NOTAMs and found snow removal in progress. If we end up going later that day and there has been no further snow fall (established by clear skies in the area or no reports of snow in the METARs of surrounding stations, or even the weather network forecast...hey...use whatever tools you can) I take the NOTAM at it's word that snow removal has been done or is in progress and the runway will be good to go when we get there. I always reserve the right to miss based on what I see (easier during daylight) but if you have windrows from previous snow removal, you see the runway lights most of us would assume the clearing was accomplished.

As far as I'm concerned, the Town is liable for this. As previously mentioned...if they can't do the most basic maintanence, and more importantly, advise of the runway condition accurately close the airport and drive the patients out.

As for pressure from Medcom to go when the wx is 0/0. I gave up arguing with them. I would tell them it was very unlikely we would get in. I dutifully conducted the flight, approach and missed if I didn't see anything. We got paid if they said go regardless if we made it in. I have no qualms shooting an approach to minimums and missing. Follow the plate and you won't hit anything.

[Cat Driver]

I have no qualms shooting an approach to minimums and missing. Follow the plate and you won't hit anything.

No argument there.

But this incident had nothing to do with shooting an approach to minimums as they seem to have had the runway visual in night VMC.

Their trouble started when they lost control due to runway conditions, which can happen to any pilot who ever flew if the snow is to deep for the airplane you are driving at the moment.

There was a time when we flew into places every day with no real runway reports in both day and night operations ( Runways are only a vague description as they were often just ice strips with flare pots for lighting at night.) and I often wonder how in hell I managed to not wreck one sometimes.

So I try and cut these crews some slack unless there is proof of carelessness on their part.

[2R]

Somebody from Transport needs to get up to Arstrong and kick that guy issuing these notams in the nuts.Did you see the Notam for today?
No mention of the ICE on the runway under the half inch of snow.Can you imagine the suprise on some PC-12 driver when he pulls reverse and does a pirouette of into the snowbank.Then somebody posting from their mommies basement will try and blame the pilot or the pilots daddy for not getting a good toe hold.
And for those not paying attention the runway was NOT CLOSED

[Flying Low]

Cat...you missed my point. I don't blame this crew at all...been there...done that. My reference to flying the approach to mins and missing was in response to Doc talking about Medcom requesting we go and try to get in even though we know the wx is down and there is a 99.99% chance of missing.

[Bede]

Thanks for the reply Doc. I do agree with you except 1 point. When it's late at night, the pilots are fatigued and the situation isn't urgent, why go now? Why not wait until morning with a well rested crew? Perhaps you're too tired to make a rational judgment and miss.

[Cat Driver]

Yes flying low I knew what you meant, and agree with you 100%.

I just want to point out to the young ones that these accidents can happen to the best of us and the system is so fu.ked up the pilots have to carry all the blame.

Armstrong has always been sub third world and is a disgrace to any so called modern society.

As I have been trying to say for decades.....the hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.

[trey kule]

I dont know how I got sucked into even commenting on this thread, as these things tend to get personal, but.

To those who are paying attention,I think I was clear that my opinions were based on what I knew at the time I believe I used the word predicated. 2r you seem to want to take personal slams at me. Perhaps if you want to discuss our comparative flying hours/years in aviaition/ and time flying into northern strips, PM me.

Now, I have different perspective on the issue, and again, I want to emphasize that the I consider this an honest error by the crew and a learning experiene.(I also posted that before..) This is not a firing situation. But...it was a bad assumption,

it seems that several posters were aware of these situations of errounous reporting etc..I have to ask..what did any of you do about them? Which company SMS people have addressed these concerns? Who has notified Nav Canada? Exactly why, when so many appear to know about the situation has there been no effort to resolve it. Would be great to hear from those who posted about some of these situations post what they , their company, and thier company's SMS have done before this incident occurred.