SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long grits

[Freetime]

I am in ontario and I want out we are all stupid alberta here I come

If you're in Ontario, stay there and vote! The conservatives do pretty good in the west - it's in Ontario and east of there where extra votes are needed!!

[dxprguy]

HZ2P.. I have to agree.. Reading this thread I find it absolutely stunning how some people can continue to justify their support for the Liberals. Like what gives!!?.... this sh#t makes me crazy.. Wake up people we don't have to tolerate these greasy bastards stealing OUR money.... we deserve better.. don't we.?

[Icebound]

... Is two teir really that bad ... I would be more then happy to spend $500 for and MRI so I can have the operation sooner. ... if I decided to pay for my MRI the person next in line will get theirs a lot sooner. ... Really is 2 teir that bad.

The reason two-tier is not good is that the more-profitable part will suck resources from the other. Your 500 dollars spent in the public system will benefit everybody a little, while spent in a private clinic benefits only you, plus the profiteer. It will not "open a spot" in the public system, because the public doctor or technician or machine or whatever.... which could have been paid for by your 500 dollars, has now moved over to operate for the more-profitable private clinic. Public system professionals may become the lower paid, and consequentally the poorer providers.

So if, let us say, there are 1 million above-average-income Canadians, who as a total are willing to spend an average of 1000 dollars each for medical care above and beyond their normal taxes, then that Billion dollars should arguably be taxed from them into the public system to benefit the total medical care of ALL Canadians.

Otherwise, we are saying that basic medical care is discretionary spending, which it clearly should not be.

Of course at ANY level of funding, there will always be somebody willing to pay extra for something. The trick is to fund the public system high enough to avoid the requirement of a serious two-tier system. Because the Canadian taxpayers, including high-income taxpayers, are unlikely to agree to such a high funding level, a two-tier system is maybe inevitable.

That would be a huge step backward from Canada's social responsibility during the last 30 years. But hell, what do we care. We are all young, obviously rich, and got our Cat 1-2-3 Medicals. Obviously we aren't going to need much health care anytime soon.

[shitdisturber]

HZ2P.. I have to agree.. Reading this thread I find it absolutely stunning how some people can continue to justify their support for the Liberals. Like what gives!!?.... this sh#t makes me crazy.. Wake up people we don't have to tolerate these greasy bastards stealing OUR money.... we deserve better.. don't we.?

I couldn't agree more; we deserve better, and have for decades. Unfortunately there's nothing better on the horizon. I don't think we've had a decent Prime Minister since Pearson to be honest, and those before him were no great shakes either.

[Icebound]

HZ2P.. I have to agree.. Reading this thread I find it absolutely stunning how some people can continue to justify their support for the Liberals. Like what gives!!?.... this sh#t makes me crazy.. Wake up people we don't have to tolerate these greasy bastards stealing OUR money.... we deserve better.. don't we.?

Yes, we can have other greasy bastards stealing our money.

I find it interesting that Martin called the inquiry in the first place. Was he simply interested in shooting himself in the foot, or maybe he really wanted to find out and clean up what was going on???

Bad as the Liberals may be, Mackay has shown us the worth of his word, Harper wants us in bed with the Texas Shrub, and the Ontario Conservatives have provided a fine example of their social and financial skills. No, thank you.

[peeelot]

Since I am from Ontario I am rare I like the conservitives. When MIke Harris first run he said he was going to cut the unneeded fat out of all the systems. And he did. He is the first one not to lie he said and he did. Now the Mr. M said he was not going to do a lot of things but he did. Ontario get out of your retarded state just because the Libs have red and white dosen't mean they are Canadian. We need change I am sick of being bent over my ass is getting sore. So lets sent a message to Ottawa we don't want the Libs anymore. We want the blue and white.


To all the people who will vote for the libs make sure you stock up on the KY because if they get back into power you are going to need it.

[LH]

As is my Constitutional Right, I will be registering my vote this time as I did the last two times and that vote will be registered as "Declined". It will then be recorded as a vote indicating that I "find none of the candidates/Parties worthy of my vote". It has been suggested that you vote and vote for anyone or Party that you can "stomach". Sorry, but you also have the Official Elections Canada sanctioned and registered way of doing something else called "Declining Your Vote". It means that you have in fact appeared at the voting outlet, taken you vote registration card and immediately returned it to the Returning Officer stating "I decline my vote". It then gets marked down as just that, and must be counted officially the same as any of the other votes for whatever MP/Party. That way, if anyone states that because you declined your vote, it means you didn't vote, then you can tell them you did in fact vote and that they better get educated about their election Rights.

Personally. I will elect nor hire nobody to speak for me, who I have absolutely no control over for 4-5 years and am forced by law to pay them a handsome salary and benefits. I want and I demand the Right to dismiss that person, together with my fellow constituents that hired him/her, without having to bring down the whole government to do so. No matter what Party I might vote for in the coming election, I can rest assured that all I will be getting is another form of some kind of corruption to replace the kind I presently am witnessing. I defy anyone to name ONE government that Canada has had since 1900 where there hasn't been corruption of one sort or another.....regardless of the Party name or leanings. Presently things could have been worse because the Liberals could have had a majority......and they could "given me the finger" for 3+ years to come and I couldn't have did a damn thing about it. Put someone else in Ottawa for 4-5 years again without any say about how they conduct our affairs during that time?......not on your life I won't. I will however, Offically register my distain and disgust for the whole bunch and indicate Officially that I find none of them worthy of my trust and my vote that I value it highly and don't give it away to just anyone. Those who do not agree with my position, then that is their Right also, BUT they will not have to wait 4-5 years to register their disagreement here with my position, pay me a large salary, accord me benefits during that time and when they register their disagreement with me, have to pay me a large pension until the day of my funeral.

[Icebound]

As is my Constitutional Right, I will be registering my vote this time as I did the last two times and that vote will be registered as "Declined". It will then be recorded as a vote indicating that I "find none of the candidates/Parties worthy of my vote". .

Ah, we come to the nub of the real problem.

Democracy by Powerful Political Party is, of course, not really democratic at all. Even if the National doesn't parachute a candidate into the riding directly, the local rigs their choice in favour of an "approved" establishment candidate. So are we really any better off than the old-style Stalinist governments.... we get no choice but to vote for the assigned stooge.... oh sure, we maybe get a choice of 2 or 3 different stooges, but 2 of the 3 are bizarre extremes, leaving only 1 remotely plausible.... and as I say, he is almost never the choice of the local people, and half the time he is not even the choice of a majority of the grass-roots members of the local Party Association.

Since it is unlikely that grass-roots Canadians will ever get a chance to field the candidates of their choice, it is essential to maintain a perpetual minority situation in Ottawa. Make sure none of the existing ones gain complete power. The wrangling may appear unproductive, but it just might lead back to a Professional civil service that does its assigned job with technical efficiency and ignores the political pressures. And the constant scrutiny should make it way more difficult to hide corruption.

Which is also the whole reason that the issue of "proportional representation" keeps rearing its head.

Okay, so it would lead into the situation where you get elections frequently...

Canadians would do well to be mentally prepared for frequent elections. Maybe they would not be so apathetic between elections. The grass-roots would have to remain ready with their candidates. The candidates would have to keep their populace informed. The election machinery would always be in a state of readiness.... Hell the cost would probably go down.... with the issues constantly before the people, long campaigns would be unnecessary.... the actual registration and voting process could and would be streamlined to be no worse than a debit-card withdrawal.

I may have to consider running.

...

[LH]

Have "your' system as you wish, BUT in your sytem, you will vote for your Member and once he/she is elected, you will still have NO control over that Member until the next election, whenever that may be, under a majority OR minority government. In MY system, me and my fellow constituents would elect whomever and off to Ottawa they would go to represent US and NOT be ordered how to vote by any Party Whip or PMO. IF that member did not represent us as he was elected to do by US, we could dismiss him from his Office with a 60% vote in favour of that action. We would then elect a Member to represent US that would do just that and not be ORDERED to vote as the Member from Chicoutimi told our Member to vote, just because that Chicoutimi Member happened to be Leader of the same Party as our Member. The interests of the constituents of Chicoutimi are not the same as ours and they have their own Member to represent THEM.

If all MP's knew that they could be replaced by their constituents if they did not listen to their constituents and that this could happen without their constituents having to wait 4-5 years to do so, then that would make US the ones who decide their future in politics and not some PM or PMO. I helped to elect nobody in the PMO and I will tolerate no confidante or aide to my PM having more power than my MP or anyone else's MP in the Canadian government. Just who in the Hell gave the government of Canada the Right to make some asshole by the name of Jean Carle, the 2nd most powerful man in Canadian politics next to the PM? Does anyone know of anyone else who voted for this man or had any say in him being appointed to anything? Did I miss some Commons Committee hearing that asked this man questions before he assumed his office? Does anyone know how much Canadian taxpayers pay this man for a salary, what kind of a "package" it will cost us to fire his ass or if not, what kind and what the amount is the lifelong pension we will be responsible for paying this man? Perhaps someone can answer my questions because my duly elected MP tells me he doesn't know, but he knows enough not to "Fu*k with that man" or he'll apparently "rue the day".

[Icebound]

Have "your' system as you wish, BUT in your sytem, you will vote for your Member and once he/she is elected, you will still have NO control over that Member until the next election, whenever that may be, under a majority OR minority government. In MY system, me and my fellow constituents would elect whomever and off to Ottawa they would go to represent US and NOT be ordered how to vote by any Party Whip or PMO. IF that member did not represent us as he was elected to do by US, we could dismiss him from his Office with a 60% vote in favour of that action. ....

Oh the lack of free vote is just another "lack of democracy", and although I forgot to include it specifically as one of the non-democratic features of our democracy, I certainly agree that it is.

However, your proposal of recall is not just an antidote to lack of free votes. You are proposing anarchy.

I still believe in the representative choosing to vote HIS conscience, not yours. The reason is, when taken in the larger context of a harmonious, peaceful country, which is fair to all its citizens. he is there to do the research and to vote not only for my best interests, but for the best interests of all people.

So I am not going to get uptight if he votes against some specific goodie that would benefit me at the expense of the rest of the country. But as you rightly put it, I would not expect him to blindly follow a pre-written voting script, either.

[. ._]

OK, enough of this.

Here's ISTP's political theory 101.

Vote for the party that you think matches your beliefs. Why will come later...

If you wanna be a tree hugging pot smoker, vote Green.

If you wanna just be a pot smoker, vote Marijuana Party.

If you wanna be a right-wing facist, vote Family Coalition.

But do NOT vote for the Liberals or Tories if your beliefs are, "Well, today I feel the colour red is pretty. No, blue, no wait a minute, I recognize that guy's name."

A vote for a "fringe" party is not a wasted vote. The 2 biggies look at the fringe party numbers, and if if they are big enough, they adopt the most popular policy of that party. Hence pensions and socialized medicare exists in this country. Both enhance the quality of life of citizens here.

Just think before you vote. Get on the internet and search things. Learn what the hell you're voting for. Learn the history of the person you're voting for.

Don't be an uneducated voter. That's such a cliche.

Or, if you want to be an uneducated voter. @#$! OFF! YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!!

End rant.

-istp

[gelbisch]

All I can do as a Canadian is hold the current government accountble for their parties actions.

But that's just the problem. Who is ever actually held accountable for the stunts they pull in this country? Who's really going to catch any heat for the Gomery inquiry? Brault? Corriveau, maybe? I still can't get over this statement from the intrepid man once at the helm of our country:

A few million dollars might have been stolen in the process. It is possible. But how many millions and millions of dollars have we saved to the country because we have re-established the stability of Canada as a united country?

Ah, the probity makes my heart swell with pride!

Yeah, it's just a few million. Peanuts. Makes me feel so much better that I live paycheque to paycheque and struggle to just get by, let alone every actually buy a home or own any thing of value in this world... and Chretien places such value on a few million. Obvious the money I sweat to contribute to this rudderless country every year was of absolutely no concern to him.

Who ever gets held accountable for anything in this country?

[LH]

gelbisch ------you say "anarchy" would ensue. Is that that kind of anarchy that threw two Presidents out of the White House and came close fora third without toppling the whole government because they broke the law? Is that the same type of anarchy that threw a State Govenor out of the Govenor's Mansion because he wasn't doing as the electorate wanted. It's happened many other less publicized times with other elected officials.

You feelings and attitudes are typically Canadian and are not based on stupidity, but ignorance. Canada's real name for the country, according to my dad, should have been not Canada, but "Ya, But". Canadians are by and large conservative and like nothing that they are uneasy about or engenders visions of anything close to what they perceive to be a risk or gamble. Even though they protest such a thought, by and large Canadians put more trust in their elected representatives than a host of other countries. For ONE day every 4-5 years they have the power to "hold the politicians' feet to the fire" and after they've done that, they give them complete and absolute control to do as they please and use the commonally heard phrase "well they know all the details more than I do and so I'll allow them to vote the way THEY see fit and disregard our wishes". Again, I personally will give no politician nor employee the Right to do as THEY please for 4-5 years and me to have NO CONTROL whatsoever over them. Lastly, it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever what my MP does or does not because all REAL power in Canada rests within the confines of the PMO. The present scandal should now be driving that fact into Canadians' heads with a hammer. Chretin and/or Mulroney and all the rest of the PM's do exactly as they please from within that office. They are surrounded by people who we never elected and hear little about, yet these people have more power than even Cabinet Ministers. At least if they are going to screw me, I'd prefer if they kissed me while they're doing it.

[gelbisch]

gelbisch ------you say "anarchy" would ensue.

Wasn't me, brother. Check which post you're replying to.

[LH]

I stand corrected glebisch. That post was in reply to Ice Bound.......thanks.

[. ._]

LH,

We do all of this because we are dumb. We have no elected senate because we are dumb. We elect the same assholes year after year because we are dumb. Period.

-istp

[hz2p]

istp: you are a man of unusual insight.

If I had to choose one word, and only one word to describe the vast majority of Canadians, "stupid" would surely have to be at the top of the list ... "irrelevant" and "lazy" would be strong .-ups.

Is there a special Canadian mother's handbook for babies, that describes the requisite and frequent "dropping on the head as a small child" practice, which is the only logical explanation for the behaviour I see around me?

[LH]

istp -----did you elect . Guite or Jean Carle or did you have any idea who these men were?......I didn't and even if I lived in Quebec, I wouldn't have had the chance to vote for them either. Can you or I vote them out of office then at the next election? Jean Carle had more power than Reg Alcock, Minister in charge of the Treasury Board or Paul Martin when he was Finance Minister. You can't possibly be naive enough to believe that your MP has any kind of power do you? He gets elected, takes his seat and will vote on major issues EXACTLY as he is TOLD to vote or he'll have a private visit from the Party Whip (who is aptly named) who will conduct a "fireside chat" with your Member. The facts of life will be explained to him and he'll be advised that should he continue his antics, the PM as Leader of his Party, will not sign his nomination papers to run for re-election at the end of the Party's term in office. He'll then have to run as an Independent or cross the floor and try to get one of the Opposition Party's Leaders to accept him and sign his nomination papers. You will have absolutely NO SAY in any of this nor will you be formally advised that it is even going on. The ONLY time that you or your prospective MP have ANY power whatsoever is on that one day every 4-5 years when you cast your vote. After that, the PM can do as he please regarding anything and the Canadian public has no way of firing him from his office without bringing down the whole government and costing themselves at least $200M +. If Richard Nixon would have been PM of Canada and committed all the crimes that he supposedly committed during Watergate, we could not have touched the man and he would have kept his Office. So if Stephen Harper ends up replacing Paul Martin as PM at the next election with a large majority, he becomes "untouchable" for 4-5 years. He can then surround himself again in the PMO with a whole new bunch of unelected people who have more power than the MP you elected to represent you in Ottawa. Seldom will you hear their names and together with a whole bunch of Canadians, won't pay them much attention because you just consider them "Civil Servants" who must do as the MP's and Cabinet Ministers tell them to do.

I've watched this crap for half a century and also watched the goings-on at my grandfather's home when it was used as the HQ for the election of one Robert H Winters of Louis St. Laurent's Liberal government years ago. Years later, the same man was a Cabinet Minister and later vied with Pierre Trudeau for leadership of the Liberal Party. You better believe that I understand TOO well how the system in Ottawa REALLY works as a result.

[. ._]

LH,

Good points. I don't disagree, but I still believe that if we had a more informed electorate, we'd be in better shape. Better elected people could appoint better bureaucrats. Just a theory.

Unfortunately, it'll probably never happen.

I'll just keep on voting for a losing party, or individual, and hope for the best.

-istp

[shitdisturber]

Having a better informed electorate won't do squat, not that that is the problem in this case anyway. The problem lies in the fact that, as LH said, once we elect them we have no control over them until it's time to vote for or against them next time around. Since they control whether or not there's ever going to be a recall capability; care to guess if it's ever going to happen? Not bloody likely! After all, why would they give the people the opportunity to boot them out of office until they're ready to leave? Our system is noticeably skewed in favour of our politicians in more areas than I care to name. Who gave them their platinum pension plan? They did. Who votes for their pay raises? They do. It's a huge conflict of interest but there doesn't seem to be any way we can change it; because no matter who gets in, they just continue to feed at the trough.

[. ._]

So, what you're saying, shitdisturber, that a politically saavy, intelligent electorate would not want to change our system to something more accountable, and regionally more representative?

If we don't aim higher, we'll continue to shoot ourselves in the feet!

That's all I'm saying.

-istp

[shitdisturber]

istp, I think we've got a politically savvy, intelligent electorate that wants improvement from our elected officials already. That being said, as I've already stated; once we put the bastards in there, we have no control over them until it's time to vote them out. Only to replace them with somebody equally poor and/or indifferent to what the people want.

[Icebound]

gelbisch ------you say "anarchy" would ensue. Is that that kind of anarchy that threw two Presidents out of the White House and came close fora third without toppling the whole government because they broke the law? Is that the same type of anarchy that threw a State Govenor out of the Govenor's Mansion because he wasn't doing as the electorate wanted. It's happened many other less publicized times with other elected officials.

...

Even though they protest such a thought, by and large Canadians put more trust in their elected representatives than a host of other countries. For ONE day every 4-5 years they have the power to "hold the politicians' feet to the fire" and after they've done that, they give them complete and absolute control to do as they please and use the commonally heard phrase "well they know all the details more than I do and so I'll allow them to vote the way THEY see fit and disregard our wishes". Again, I personally will give no politician nor employee the Right to do as THEY please for 4-5 years and me to have NO CONTROL whatsoever over them. ....
.

I said that I agreed with the idea of free votes.

I did not say one way or another about recall. I agree with recall for wrong-doing, fraud, criminal activity, and the like.

But I am not in favour of recall "just because", as you seem to suggest. The whole idea of sending a representative is that he is there to see the inside of the operation of the whole country, which I am not... and his free votes of conscience must reflect that. In spite of the fact that he was elected to represent your area.... he will certainly do that, too.... but he must be allowed a free vote not just by his "leader", but also by his constituents.

[Icebound]

All I can do as a Canadian is hold the current government accountble for their parties actions.

But that's just the problem. Who is ever actually held accountable for the stunts they pull in this country? Who's really going to catch any heat for the Gomery inquiry? Brault? Corriveau, maybe? I still can't get over this statement from the intrepid man once at the helm of our country:

A few million dollars might have been stolen in the process. It is possible. But how many millions and millions of dollars have we saved to the country because we have re-established the stability of Canada as a united country?

Ah, the probity makes my heart swell with pride!

Yeah, it's just a few million. Peanuts. Makes me feel so much better that I live paycheque to paycheque and struggle to just get by, let alone every actually buy a home or own any thing of value in this world... and Chretien places such value on a few million. Obvious the money I sweat to contribute to this rudderless country every year was of absolutely no concern to him.

Who ever gets held accountable for anything in this country?

I do not begrudge you a little bit of outrage for the waste and corruption of government.

But I suggest you also save some of that for the "free enterprise" people in your life who also cost you money through waste, fraud, and corruption.
At least the government is somewhat responsive to the taxpayer, if only on voting day. The others are not.

I speak for example.... of banking systems that have been implemented with insufficient security controls, resulting in millions of dollars in fraudulent transactions, which of course, are passed down to you. And if the fraud affects you directly, they make sure to fight to prove that it is your fault.

... of energy companies who manipulate prices as they see fit.... of aviation executives (and others) who bleed their public corporation dry and declare bankruptcy while their personal wealth is safely offshore in the Caymans or somewhere...of automobile companies who produce crap, refuse to fix it, then overcharge you for repairs they have not done... of insurance companies who drag their feet to pay your legitimate claim, if they ever pay it at all... and then refuse to carry you, even if the claim was no way your fault....and on and on.

When a government wastes my money through fraud and corruption, we get all outraged and demand heads to roll. When business does it, we call that the cost of doing business.

I do not condone government's waste and corruption. But neither am I that excited if half-a-dozen guys pocketed a few million. At least my parliament and its committees look out for things like thatt....maybe even make their heads roll. Let's even make the Prime Mininster's head roll, if corruption is proven up that far....

But I am not conviced that a completely new parliament will produce significantly better government.

[LH]

Icebound ------you seem to have a concern about "the country of Canada" and I agree 100%. My MP goes to Parliament to represent ME and my fellow constituents. Every MP that goes to Parliament should also represent HIS constituents across Canada. IF they ALL do that one thing, then Canada IS duly represented from coast to coast. The BASIS of the whole system though, is that EACH MP represent the wishes of HIS electorate. You seem to suggest that ALL the MP's (300+) would all want different things for their constituents. Sorry, but I've travelled this country of mine for decades now and there are differences from coast to coast as in any other countr, but on our basic wants and desires Canadians are basically the same. We don't diverge that much that 300+ MP's would all be wanting 300+ entirely different things for their constituents. I'm from NS and live in Manitoba and I can tell you that on the basic wants and desires, there's little disagreement between someone from Yarmouth, NS and someone in Winnipeg, MB. We'd "get it done" in fine fashion because they've been doing the exact same thing south of the border since 1776......and anything they can do, we can do also, if not better in that regard. Shitdisturber pretty well got the idea about why the items I'm talking about will never happen. We would be asking the House of Commons to give back to the people power that they have no intention of relinquishing and it's THEY who must do it in order for it to become law. Until that point in time, all I'm doing is blowing hot air on a website. That just about equals the power that you and I have 24hrs after election day when everyone has been elected.......then we sit and wait for that ONE day 4-5 years from then, when we become important again...from 0800 - 2000hrs.