LifeGuard 3 King Air B200 off runway Maple Creek SK

[bizjets101]

Maple Creek Airport Saskatchewan. FlightAware Flight Tracker

Landing at Maple Creek after a flight from Saskatoon to pick up a patient, no details yet, other than no injuries. Aircraft operated by Province of Saskatchewan.

The Badger Maple Creek news.

C-GSAU.jpg (116.71 KiB) Viewed 8077 times

[KAG]

That will buff right out. Glad no one was hurt, fly safe all.

[CPLMike89]

Glad to hear no one was hurt.

[rigpiggy]

those props look like they had a bit of power on when they hit

[RVgrin]

those props look like they had a bit of power on when they hit

Yeah they sure do. As usual I'll try to reserve judgment until I read the report, but perhaps the pilot gunned it in beta mode (reverse prop pitch) when he saw he wasn't going to make it???

There is a beta mode on B200's right?

Either way, someone's boss is probably going to be shouting, "when you saw that you were sliding off the fr1ck1n' runway, why didn't you kill the d@mn engines?"

Glad everyone is ok.

[ahramin]

Beta doesn't gun anything, it just allows you to go beyond the low pitch stop.

I don't know that shutting the engines down on a runway excursion is a realistic proposal. If you are going to hit anything you want to be going as slow as possible, so leave it in max reverse. Even if you aren't, the time it takes to realize you are leaving the runway, kill the condition levers, feather the props, and wait for them to stop is likely longer than it takes to come to a stop anyway.

The best solution is to stay on the runway.

[RVgrin]

Beta doesn't gun anything, it just allows you to go beyond the low pitch stop.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the english expression. I meant that the pilots may have had full throttle open in their attempt to slow down.

The best solution is to stay on the runway.

And the stating-the-obvious award of the year goes to....

[BadgerGirl]

The runway had between three and four inches of relatively fresh snow on it.
There is some speculation that when the plane landed, it hit a patch of snow that was heavier packed.
Could the snow have played some role in the incident?
How long will it take the safety agency to complete their investigation as to the cause and contributing factors to the incident?
Thanks for your speculation! Having absolutely no frame of reference whatsoever to do with flying, any insight will help me do my job better.
Also, to the original poster, thank you for giving The Badger proper credit for the photo and for linking to the site. I appreciate it.

[Justjohn]

Beta doesn't gun anything, it just allows you to go beyond the low pitch stop.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the english expression. I meant that the pilots may have had full throttle open in their attempt to slow down.

The best solution is to stay on the runway.

And the stating-the-obvious award of the year goes to....

Perhaps you don't know how Beta Works ! It is NOT reverse. It IS ground fine. And in reverse you do Not have direct throttle control. Yes, you can add more reverse, or less reverse, and it is controlled thru the throttle. However, you cannot open it up to full throttle. It is all preset stuff. Max reverse is governed to a fairly low power setting.

[Double Wasp]

Hello all,

First I am not making a comment on the actual incident in question however since it is obvious the media is involved I would like to expand on beta for clarity.

Beta doesn't gun anything, it just allows you to go beyond the low pitch stop.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the english expression. I meant that the pilots may have had full throttle open in their attempt to slow down.

I believe what Ahramin was referring to was that by selecting beta does not mean that the engine accelerates. Beta mode on most turbine engines starts well before any actual reversing of the propeller blade angle occurs. Beta essentially refers to the fact that below a certain blade angle the power levers (no throttles on a turbine) are now controlling the angle of the propeller blades while forward of that angle the propellors are contolled by the propellor levers (Alpha mode or governing range). Once the propeller blade angle is in the negative, engine speed is increased relative to the power lever position to increase the reverse thrust produced by the propeller.

*DISCLAIMER*

These are general terms and by no means go into any significant detail. They are only meant to educate and I welcome others to please expand as necessary.

RVgrin, Expressions like "gun" the engine and "full throttle" are just wrong in this situation and make you sound very inexperienced.

It is always better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth (or your keyboard) and remove all doubt.


Cheers
DW

[BadgerGirl]

The beta thing is way over my head. Snow is not.
However, I was surprised to learn that there are no guidelines with respect to snow on the runway.
Especially since the town itself believes they are governed by regulations imposed by Transport Canada.
But here is what I received this morning:
"The Maple Creek Airport is a registered aerodrome. A registered aerodrome is an aerodrome that is registered with Transport Canada and its information, such as a map, services provided, runway length, elevation and other information important to pilots is published and maintained by NAV CANADA in the Canada Flight Supplement. A registered aerodrome may be used for charter and private flights. Regularly scheduled commercial air traffic must use a certified site for which an airport certificate has been issued by Transport Canada.
Transport Canada does not regulate snow removal at registered aerodromes. It is the responsibility of the pilot-in-command to ensure that the runway is clear of any obstructions including snow accumulations."
Is the snow a total non-factor here?
Thanks!

[ahramin]

Beta doesn't gun anything, it just allows you to go beyond the low pitch stop.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the english expression. I meant that the pilots may have had full throttle open in their attempt to slow down.

The best solution is to stay on the runway.

And the stating-the-obvious award of the year goes to....

RVgrin, I believe the english expression you are looking for is full reverse. Beta is a technical term which, to quote Inigo "I don't think it means what you think it means." and has nothing to do with the power going to the engines. Another technical point is that there are no throttles, Beechcraft called them power levers. In the Airbus they're still call throttles though so I understood you .

As for stating the obvious, I'm afraid it just doesn't seem that obvious these days. Many chief pilots and operations managers, rather than seeing runway excursions as a real risk that needs to be examined and prevented (predictable is preventable), see runway excursions as something that "just happens" or is "part of the business". This leads to most pilots thinking the same thing.

[oldtimer]

All Beech B200 King Airs have a 4 blade propeller. From the looks of the (excellent) picture, even if the engines were stopped and the propellers stopped rotating, at least one blade would have ground contact and that would require a prop overhaul and removal/inspection of the gearbox. Only thing that could be saved is possibly 3 blades per prop and some savings in the required gearbox overhaul. Attempting to stop the engines IMHO would create more hazard than acceptable.

[rigpiggy]

actually, the original certificate had a 3 blade prop, the 4 blade is an option or retrofit. FWIW I probably would have asked the F/O to pull the condition levers, with less torque on the blades less chance for flying objects

[Full Ins]

I believe SK flies their machines single pilot... No FO for you!

[BadgerGirl]

Safety board has told me snow cover caused the pilot not to know where the centre of the runway was. Additionally, FIC Edmonton put out a notification about the condition of the runway, but FIC Winnipeg was not made aware. Apparently the Maple Creek airport sort falls in a grey zone between the two and as a result, the pilot was not made aware of the notification.
Hope that makes sense, it's all new to me.

Sheri

[Edo]

We all whine and complain every time the media gets something wrong in the reporting of a aviation accident.

Here you have a reporter asking reasonable questions, NOT looking to sensationalize an accident and all we can do is talk about prop pitch and beta.

The runway had between three and four inches of relatively fresh snow on it.
There is some speculation that when the plane landed, it hit a patch of snow that was heavier packed.
Could the snow have played some role in the incident?
How long will it take the safety agency to complete their investigation as to the cause and contributing factors to the incident?
Thanks for your speculation! Having absolutely no frame of reference whatsoever to do with flying, any insight will help me do my job better.
Also, to the original poster, thank you for giving The Badger proper credit for the photo and for linking to the site. I appreciate it.

Yes the snow could have played a role in the incident.
The Transportation safety Board does not complete a full investigation for all incidents, it has a lot to do with TSB resources, severity of the incident and other criteria. By now the TSB can probably tell you if a full investigation will be conducted. This usually takes over a year to complete.

[BadgerGirl]

Wow, someone coming to the defense of a reporter!
You are officially my favourite pilot.

I'm just finishing the story. Sure makes one wonder how many of these gray areas there are though.

“Maple Creek is sort of an anomaly right on the boundary between two regions between FIC Winnipeg and FIC Edmonton,” said Hildebrand. “And the information was not readily available to the controllers (in Winnipeg) that were handling this flight.”

[oldtimer]

rigpiggy, FYI The original Beech 200 had a 3 blade prop. You are correct in that a 4 blade was optional. The Raisbeck mod gave it a slightly different 4 blade Hartzell. The later B200 had a 4 blade prop as standard. Because of harmonic vibration of the 4 blade, operators are required to keep prop RPM out of the 1000 - 1050 RPM range so it was common to leave the condition lever in the 70% Ng high idle position which kept prop RPM around 1100 - 1200 RPM.

[Beefitarian]

“Maple Creek is sort of an anomaly right on the boundary between two regions between FIC Winnipeg and FIC Edmonton,” said Hildebrand. “And the information was not readily available to the controllers (in Winnipeg) that were handling this flight.”

That's criminally rediculas.

Welcome to the board badgergirl any pics are apreciated. Do you know who's running the airport? There was another incident that is very much like this one recently in Ont. IIRC. I and at least one more member here feels the people operating the airport need a kick in the nuts! It sounds like this is the case here also.

You run an airport? You need to either clear the runway of all snow right away and or close it by NOTAM. Anything less results in a kick in the nuts. That's my opinion anyways.

As for stating the obvious, I'm afraid it just doesn't seem that obvious these days. Many chief pilots and operations managers, rather than seeing runway excursions as a real risk that needs to be examined and prevented (predictable is preventable), see runway excursions as something that "just happens" or is "part of the business". This leads to most pilots thinking the same thing.

I have no problem with that. I might even agree with Hedley that if a pilot gets dead doing something stupid they're an idiot. I won't write it on the internet for your family to see but be aware I share that opinion.

If the controlers couldn't give these guys proper runway conditions there should be a fine and possible kick in the nuts. Again my opinion.

[Cat Driver]

Wow, someone coming to the defense of a reporter!

Hi BadgerGirl, when a reporter asks questions it does no harm to give accurate and truthful answers.

In a case such as the accident being discussed here asking questions is one thing getting accurate and truthful answers is difficult because most of us really do not know what happened.

Accident investigation by a government body is usually a long drawn out affair and the answers are sometimes rather vague because unless there is solid evidence pointing to a cause it becomes politically and legally difficult to really get a clear answer.

One thing however is to be expected and that is the pilot in command will be the one who is responsible and can and does sometimes end up taking all the blame.

I will not say any more as it can get a little tricky trying to go any further.

Here is a suggestion:

Ask the people here how pilots operate airplanes where there is no one at the airport / landing area to report on the condition of the area a pilot is planning on landing on.

It will be interesting to see what answers you get.

. . ( Cat Driver. )

[Nark]

Here is a suggestion:

Ask the people here how pilots operate airplanes where there is no one at the airport / landing area to report on the condition of the area a pilot is planning on landing on.

For me; sometimes the best I can do is ask another pilot who flew in before me (whether is was hours or days before). A recent incident, the runway was covered in 4-5" (10cm for you Canadians...) The best I could do, is advise Flight Service and have them put out a NOTAM (notice to airmen).

[AuxBatOn]

At aerodromes where there is no Advisory, you should always strive for a low approach (or circling if you can't do a departure procedure) to look at the runway conditions, ESPECIALLY during the winter, where RSC may not always be on the NOTAMS due to the lack of reports. It would make a huge impact on my decision to land or proceed to the alternate/divert.

[BadgerGirl]

Ask the people here how pilots operate airplanes where there is no one at the airport / landing area to report on the condition of the area a pilot is planning on landing on.

Well, the town office calls in the condition of the runway to Nav Canada daily and sometimes more often if weather requires more frequent updates.
Is that what you mean?

[rigpiggy]

rigpiggy, FYI The original Beech 200 had a 3 blade prop. You are correct in that a 4 blade was optional. The Raisbeck mod gave it a slightly different 4 blade Hartzell. The later B200 had a 4 blade prop as standard. .

I thought that is what I said?

You said all 200's have 4 bladed props